Yes, this was me.

[AJLFJ80]

No.... if you went in thinking that you needed to use speed and momentum to cross that creek... it was lack of understanding of the situation that doomed you more than any puddle you had to cross first.

You power through water, you do not power into it.



Mark...

I already gave in to the fact (way back on the 1st page) that a more experienced river crosser might have made it across. So, since this is tech, what steps do you take on deciding whether or not a river crossing is passable?

 

[Mark W]

You were not commuting. That is a weak excuse. You had other ways to get there. I may not live in southern California, but it is not the Alaskan Bush of the Australian Outback. I am confident that there are roads to get you where you need to go. You have even alluded to this being a "shortcut" You wanted to play a bit on the way to work because the higher water looked cool. You were unprepared to solve your problems yourself when things did not go as planned. Your lack of experience made it into more than it was.

No one was hurt... wasted time and emergency services can be paid for. You rig will dry out. Not the worst thing that has ever happened.

But don't make excuses... you screwed up a little... accept it

No big deal.


Mark...

 

[tag3]

Walk it first. Probe the bottom with a stick or something to check depth.

 

[kidglove13]

Someone has to be on the soap box
I have done plenty of stupid things and will probably do more, but having to be recused by a heli should tell you how serious it was or could have been.
And as Mark said you were more playing around on your way to work than just commuting as you said previously.
And I am sure you have heard it all by now, and you should.
What kind of responses did you expect to get?
You put others at risk.
Not everyone is going to be nice, which you already know by now.

Carry on, I will get off the soap box now

 

[AJLFJ80]

You were not commuting. That is a weak excuse. You had other ways to get there. I may not live in southern California, but it is not the Alaskan Bush of the Australian Outback. I am confident that there are roads to get you where you need to go. You have even alluded to this being a "shortcut" You wanted to play a bit on the way to work because the higher water looked cool. You were unprepared to solve your problems yourself when things did not go as planned. Your lack of experience made it into more than it was.

No one was hurt... wasted time and emergency services can be paid for. You rig will dry out. Not the worst thing that has ever happened.

But don't make excuses... you screwed up a little... accept it

No big deal.


Mark...

I'm not making excuses. I already owned up to making a mistake and being foolhardy. You however, are now just wasting space on the forum by offering a soapbox lecture. Yes, emergency services were a little excessive for the situation, but I will reiterate, that was NOT my choice. And yes, it was a shorter way to work, the longer way to work would have taken me 14 miles out of my way. Obviously that was the better way to go, but everyone is an expert in hindsight, right?

Now, I will ask you again, back on the topic of tech...since you seem to be such a self-proclaimed water expert, what would be the steps to take to assess as to whether or not a water crossing is manageable?

 

[AJLFJ80]

Walk it first. Probe the bottom with a stick or something to check depth.

And if you can't walk it, should you consider it impassable?

 

[lt1fire]

In general as a good rule of thumb, yes



unless you NEED to cross it.

 

[Mark W]

I already gave in to the fact (way back on the 1st page) that a more experienced river crosser might have made it across. So, since this is tech, what steps do you take on deciding whether or not a river crossing is passable?

I first read the river and understand what it is doing. That is, I get a feel for the topography and the terrain. the type of material that makes up the ground around and under the water. the shape and quality of the banks, the speed and depth of the water.... what sort of debris is or is not there....stuff like this.

This gives me a lot to go on to determine the likely shape of the river bottom and make up of the materials that form it.

This all affects entry and egress and as you found out, a soft spot in the middle can be a problem too.

I look at the speed of the water and slope of the terrain. This goes to the shape and make of of the bottom too. And of course it gives me info to anticipate if I am gonna be moved downstream as I cross... if the tail is gonna sweep around as I climb the bank on the other side... if it is simply too fast to attempt...

These factors along with the capabilities of the rig I am using help to plan the route across... sometimes it is simply a matter of pointing at the other side and driving across... other tomes it is a matter of threading my way from river bar to river bar, sometimes turning downstream or even upstream. There are a LOT of different types of crossings and a LOT of ways to approach them effectively.

I look and see what is likely to happen f my plan of driving straight across does not work out. is there deeper water downstream? are there rocks or eddies or pools. What sort of egress points are on the other side..,, primary and secondary?

I have an awareness of m commitment point. at what point can I back out and at what point am I gonna have to keep gong forward.

I can't tell you everything that goes into it. I have probably left out a couple of basic things because they are so basic to me that I do not think of them consciously most of the time. It is based on years of boating in rivers and years of back country travel involving significant river crossings on a constant basis.

In this situation... with terrain that indicates a likelihood of a soft bottom to the crossing... in an FJ80 with ATs or at most MTs and no lockers... in town... on my way to work... alone with no other rigs with me, no winch and daunted by the depth of the water... I would not have crossed.


Mark...

 

[AJLFJ80]

I considered the depth and speed of the water, but alas not the material on the bottom. In the end, that's what sunk me (literally).

 

[kidglove13]

Before you question Mark W about water crossing I think you should go to the expedition section of mud and search for the Alaska Trek and check out the pictures from past events.
Do not be such a smart guy.
I would think that he is probably one of the experts here on how to cross large water crossings.
I do not know Mark from Adam, I know that Mark W. can defend himself.
Those guys go through some pretty narly stuff in Alaska
But the facts are the facts.
It was only a matter of time before people started to rip into you on here, regardless of whether or not you have heard it already somewhere else.

Off soap box now.

 

[Mark W]

I'm not making excuses. I already owned up to making a mistake and being foolhardy. You however, are now just wasting space on the forum by offering a soapbox lecture. Yes, emergency services were a little excessive for the situation, but I will reiterate, that was NOT my choice. And yes, it was a shorter way to work, the longer way to work would have taken me 14 miles out of my way. Obviously that was the better way to go, but everyone is an expert in hindsight, right?

Now, I will ask you again, back on the topic of tech...since you seem to be such a self-proclaimed water expert, what would be the steps to take to assess as to whether or not a water crossing is manageable?

I am not wasting space... your words to this point and the words of others indicate that a lot of people did not see this as an avoidable mistake that became a negative impact on others. One that should not have been so even after you were stuck. Wade/swim the 100 feet or less to the dry ground... or sit there until the water drops and then wade out... deal with it yourself or with your buddies and not with 911.

I do not call myself an expert. Anyone who calls proclaims themself an expert on a subject is probably a bit too full of themselves.

I have years of experience dealing with real water crossings... not just shallow slow moving stuff like this. I will let the people I take out into the bush... the people I guide and the people whose rigs I recover speak as to my qualifications.

Read what I have posted already while you were "asking again" and ask questions based on that if you wish.


Mark...

 

[Mark W]

Walk it first. Probe the bottom with a stick or something to check depth.

Most of the time, unless the only concern is a soft river bottom and getting mired... this will not do much for you. You can easily cross flowing water in your rig that you can not wade to inspect.

In this instance it would have been a good idea. But not in many others.


Mark...

 

[AJLFJ80]

Mark, I'm not doubting your qualifications. I am doubting the way you are coming across. Personally, you are coming across as very arrogant, as if you have never made a mistake trailing or wheeling or attempting to cross water before. I appreciate the information you are providing, but I do not appreciate being talked down to, as if the information you are stating is something that is common knowledge and that I should have known about it beforehand.

And, for the 4th time in this thread...I was not the one that notified emergency services. I would have been plenty complacent with waiting it out. It was not by choice.

 

[Mark W]

If you want to talk of really poor choices when it comes to water crossings.... the situation which led to the picture I use for an avatar here.... a friend went out... not with me or any of my crew... we still to not tell everyone all the details of his stupid choices out of respect for the friendship. But he made a few and was very lucky that people were not killed.

You made a couple of choices that could have been better... he SCREWED UP on top of screwups!

s*** happens and you move on... hopefully with lessons learned and (as in your case) no one hurt.


Mark...

 

[utopoo]

Should have just said you ran out of fuel half way through! Haha, looks like fun though. Good effort

 

[AJLFJ80]

Should have just said you ran out of fuel half way through! Haha, looks like fun though. Good effort

Would have been a lot more fun if I would have made it all the way through

 

[Mark W]

Mark, I'm not doubting your qualifications. I am doubting the way you are coming across. Personally, you are coming across as very arrogant, as if you have never made a mistake trailing or wheeling or attempting to cross water before. I appreciate the information you are providing, but I do not appreciate being talked down to, as if the information you are stating is something that is common knowledge and that I should have known about it beforehand.

And, for the 4th time in this thread...I was not the one that notified emergency services. I would have been plenty complacent with waiting it out. It was not by choice.

Am I arrogant... perhaps. But that does not change the facts.


The stuff that affected your situation IS common knowledge. or is for anyone who has any experience in this sort of stuff. You don't. I get that. But don't expect everyone to bend over backwards to make sure that any information offered is sugar coated.

Have I made mistakes? sure... Lots of them. Very few from lack of forethought though. But that is irrelevant here anyway. You posted up the pictures and your story of your screwup. Not me. You disputed and did not like my input and got snippy so I quite making a point of giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Personally IF I had done what you did to wind up sitting in my rig in the creek... I would have waded/swum back over to the street, called a cab and come back with a friend to tug the rig out of the soft sand and have been done with it.

It was a silly situation... silly mistakes... and handled poorly. yep, you have already owned up to it. And I was done sayng it. Until you got pissy over hearing it.


Mark...

 

[Chuy]

s*** happens, its happened to everyone that wheels a lot at least once. Its always a gamble when crossing water. Even Bill Burke has been stuck and hes one of the most well respected 4x4 instructors in the world now. Its a good lesson learned IMHO. You gained real world life experience that will better prepare you for the next time around. It also makes a good camp fire story.

Here is Bills story from his site

Experience #46: Deep water and oil do not mix; or, what hidden stream?

My friend had just picked me up in his 2-week-old brand new 1970 CJ-5, bone stock Florida Jeep. We were riding around some pine knolls near Loxahatchee on the eastern edge of the Glades. The swamp was about two feet deep in this area and we were following an old skidder trail. When I felt the front end drop a couple of feet, I couldn't stop the Jeep quick enough. The next thing I knew, water was flowing over our laps and the Jeep stalled. Bonehead move!!

I tried to start the engine. It made a solid noise and wouldn't turn over anymore. (I now know it is called hydrostatic lock.) Two kids in the glades, stuck Jeep, you tell me! I didn't know who else to call, so I called my Scoutmaster who owned a Land Rover. (This is where I got hooked on Land Rovers.)

He had put special wheels on the Rover that allowed dual tires on front and rear axles. The 9.00X16 military tires all around with the outside fronts of 7.50X16 really made the old Series II Landy unstoppable. He drove right through the underground stream and parked next to the Jeep to let me get into it. We hooked up a strap with which he proceeded to pull the dead Jeep out to the road and dry land.

This is where I learned how to blow water out of an engine. I was the one looking down the spark plug holes to see if any water came out. Once again, mud got in my face, only with 150 pounds of compression blowing it!

We had pulled all the spark plugs out, disconnected the coil wire and cranked the engine over after checking the oil levels and air filter housing. The water blew out the open holes and we then squirted some WD-40 in the cylinders, cranked the engine over again to help dry the compression area, installed the plugs, hooked the coil back up and the engine coughed to a start. It ran rough for a while, but we actually drove it home. Once back at the home front, we did a full service on the lubrication, wheel bearings, etc. The rig is probably still running today. If only the new owner knew the history!!



Keep this quote in mind and keep in mind its probably not your first mistake and it wont be your last.

"We are not defined by our mistakes, but how we react to them and the life journey we create despite of them." ~ Jacquitta McManus

 

[AJLFJ80]

Am I arrogant... perhaps. But that does not change the facts.


The stuff that affected your situation IS common knowledge. or is for anyone who has any experience in this sort of stuff. You don't. I get that. But don't expect everyone to bend over backwards to make sure that any information offered is sugar coated.

Have I made mistakes? sure... Lots of them. Very few from lack of forethought though. But that is irrelevant here anyway. You posted up the pictures and your story of your screwup. Not me. You disputed and did not like my input and got snippy so I quite making a point of giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Personally IF I had done what you did to wind up sitting in my rig in the creek... I would have waded/swum back over to the street, called a cab and come back with a friend to tug the rig out of the soft sand and have been done with it.

It was a silly situation... silly mistakes... and handled poorly. yep, you have already owned up to it. And I was done sayng it. Until you got pissy over hearing it.


Mark...

I dispute the part where you say I could have "swam back over to the street"...the tow guy on the scene attempted to wade out to my rig and only could make it about halfway there because the current was too strong...and he was properly equipped...I was on my way to work wearing casual clothes, definitely nothing you want to wade in. If it was a life or death situation, could I have made it? It's only speculation. People die every year because they think they can swim across an unfamiliar body of water. I was not afforded the opportunity to 'wait it out'.

 

[azcromntic]

if the water is still there you should take another run at it.

I'm chuckling at this recommendation. Mostly because I've tried the "take another run at it" approach and it didn't turn out as well as the first time. Just my mileage.