Yes, this was me. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter AJLFJ80
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AJ, thanks for posting this. I've actually learned quite a bit from the posts on here. I even managed to learn something from Mark.
Mark, whoa buddy, talk about thin-skinned. I'm not going to respond to your random personal insults on here, but if you're seriously that hurt over my comment send me a pm, as I'm clearly not as experienced as you at posting on forums. I do regret the stream comment however, thought it was funny at the time...hindsight, not so much.
Some subtleties of communication are lost when things are written, as we can't hear the tone, sarcasm, or tongue in cheek-ness of a comment. My impression of the original poster was that he was getting pretty good grief from pretty much everyone, and was well aware of both the danger he put himself and others in. His posting on here was not to say "Hey look at my awesomeness," but to own up to a huge mistake. I think most people who read his post can learn from his mistake, especially if those with more experience chime in constructively.
This is where I see the miscommunication. I read into what was written by AJ and others differently than you did, perhaps I was wrong, although I doubt it. You seem tightly wound and in need of a vacation, I recommend sunny California.
I find it ironic that you chastise AJ for being reckless and irresponsible. You have considerable experience doing what most of us get to once in a while. Your comments on here are seen in this regard, and yet your posting that he should have swam or waded across is very irresponsible considering the regard others have for your advice. He most definitely should not have attempted to swim across. Could you have? Probably. Should others try out of fear of being mocked? Probably not. To encourage others who do not have your experience is not only not helpful, but dangerous.
-Charlie-(now living in California)
Mark, whoa buddy, talk about thin-skinned. I'm not going to respond to your random personal insults on here, but if you're seriously that hurt over my comment send me a pm, as I'm clearly not as experienced as you at posting on forums. I do regret the stream comment however, thought it was funny at the time...hindsight, not so much.
Some subtleties of communication are lost when things are written, as we can't hear the tone, sarcasm, or tongue in cheek-ness of a comment. My impression of the original poster was that he was getting pretty good grief from pretty much everyone, and was well aware of both the danger he put himself and others in. His posting on here was not to say "Hey look at my awesomeness," but to own up to a huge mistake. I think most people who read his post can learn from his mistake, especially if those with more experience chime in constructively.
This is where I see the miscommunication. I read into what was written by AJ and others differently than you did, perhaps I was wrong, although I doubt it. You seem tightly wound and in need of a vacation, I recommend sunny California.
I find it ironic that you chastise AJ for being reckless and irresponsible. You have considerable experience doing what most of us get to once in a while. Your comments on here are seen in this regard, and yet your posting that he should have swam or waded across is very irresponsible considering the regard others have for your advice. He most definitely should not have attempted to swim across. Could you have? Probably. Should others try out of fear of being mocked? Probably not. To encourage others who do not have your experience is not only not helpful, but dangerous.
-Charlie-(now living in California)
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- Thread starter
- #143
Yeah, the jab on Californians didn't sit well with me either. Although not quite the challenging landscape that is Alaska (I lived in Talkeetna for 6 months, so I am well aware of what the last American Frontier has to offer), there is a plethora of challenging terrain and conditions here. We have the tallest mountain in the continental US, the lowest valley in North America, and just about everything in between. Just remember Mark, no matter how much you know and how much experience you have, there is always someone out there that knows more and is more experienced than you. I think you just rubbed a couple of people the wrong way with the way you came off; the jab at Californians did not help your case, either. With all of that being said, I started reading your Expedition Alaska thread, and it sounds awesome.
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
Lots of people have dealt with this sort of situation, and advice and experience is easy to find. It is a lot more common because it is found in a lot more places. You don't need a river.... just a large area of standing water. Little difference between a slow moving water way and a pond or over sized puddle.
Except in the case of an abnormal flow due to flooding or other exceptionable runoff a waterway of fordable depth with fast current will usually have a solid bottom. The fine particles that form a soft mucky riverbed will not settle out until the current slows.
Eddies and spots where there is a temporary localized slowing can cause beds of soft stuff though, even in a river that is overall swift with a solid bottom.
There are indications that you can watch for in a situation like this. Slowly swirling water off to the side of the main channel, behind rocks or other obstructions is one. Slow upwelling in an section that has a smooth surface is one too. If the waterway spreads out and slows between to narrower and faster sections it is likely that small sediment will collect there. Especially if it is deeper there too.
The terrain and soil around the river is a good indication of what to expect underneath it when it is slow moving.
Even in a slightly faster flow, you can wind up with hidden soft spots as current work against each other and create dead zones where the smaller particles can settle out. Once they start to collect and pile up a little, they can result in further localized slowing and eventually build up a covering of slightly larger pebbles which anchor and secure this soft spot, protecting it from the current. In my experience these tend to form in places where the water level raises and falls routinely. They tend to disperse when they remain under the flow for long. But the result is very soft sand/pea gravel river bars that look solid until you hit them.
We tend to run into the soft river bars and eddy generated patches of submerged quicksand in some river crossing situations. The key here is to be aware and to recognize the warning signs so as to avoid those spots.
Where we spend our time in the field, the slower moving waterways are generally surrounded by marsh or they are far too large to cross anyway so our routes are planed to avoid these obstacles for the most part and we do a lot of fast water/hard bottom crossings.
Beyond that, it is usually beaver ponds that give us the potential for getting mired in a soft bottomed water crossing. (One of the first color covers of the Toyota Trails is a shot of a red FZJ80 nosing into a beaver pond. I took the shot while standing out in the pond to direct the rigs through the vegetation gaps so that they could follow the trail through.) There is no current in a beaver pond to move the light materials and as often as not it is actually an area of flooded woods with peat and organic materials making up the bottom. In the beaver pond if you are not actually on a previously existing trail that has been drowned by the rodents, then the peat/topsoil surface that has been flooded will usually have some root mass still which will hold it together a lot more than pure peat or saturated mud and there will be some traction to work with. Even to the point that applying power and chewing through can work, were it will simply sink you deeper in submerged soft sand/silt. Of course in a pond, as in a slow moving river, there can be hidden holes and submerged debris. In faster water the debris usually gets moved along and the shape of the bottom is more predictable if you know what to look for and pay attention to what the water itself is telling you.
If you do not know the nature of the bottom in a slow moving water way or a pond, this is a place where (unlike a swift moving rocky river) wading it first is usually a good idea. If you have not waded it, or really even if you have... creeping slow is always a good idea and "feeling" the bottom through your suspension and the amount of throttle it takes to move forward. You can usually tell when you are getting into soft stuff. If it is a little soft and muddy, but nor quicksand, then enough throttle to keep the tires spinning just a tiny bit faster than your forward progress can often get you through. But if it is fine sand/silt, this may simply sink you in. you can often back out of it if you realize it immediately. Once you come to a stop in soft sand/silt that is submerged it is a lot less likely to get moving again than it is when this same material is above water.
If you are dealing with heavier/thicker mud/clay rather than sand/silt, then now you are basically dealing with the same considerations you have for getting through any other mud. Except that this mud us hidden under water. Makes it hard to pick a line and also makes it take a lot more power and pretty much deprives you of the "more speed/momentum" approach that works so well with most mud.
Just like in mud above water.. lockers, tirs, gears and power do the most to get you though mu under the water... good luck finessing a line though.
Not a lot of "tips" for getting through this kind of stuff. Obviously most of what I have mentioned before for faster water applies to a large degree, particularly in terms of reading the signs and making a plan. But experience and skill can only play so much of a factor when it comes to something the vehicle simply can not get through. Again, better to be stuck in a soft spot in a slow moving or still water way than sunk in a deep one or pushed downstream in a fast one. Because if this is the case, your concerns are a lot more akin to simply being stuck in mud on the trail. a winch or a friend with a strap will usually solve the problem.
I guess the biggest "tip" would be to not undertake a crossing that has you concerned about getting mired in a soft bottom unless you have one or both of those at hand. Generally a good idea if you have any concerns at all about completing a crossing.
When current temperature and depth is more of a concern, things like vehicle snorkels and waterproofing, drysuits, life vests, throw ropes and such come into play as much as winches and straps. I carry all of this as well as an inflatable one man raft and a kayak paddle and ropes/quick release belt and a selection of other gear specifically for recovery of vehicles that don't make it to the other side.
ALWAYS have a plan that addresses what you will do if you do not make it across!
Not sure that this is much help for what you are asking. if you have a more specific question I might be able to give you a more specific answer.
The pics below don't teach any lesson really... just a couple shots of a slow water stuck. In this case, the river channel had changed in a flood and Kevin was coming through a thickly wooded trail at night and dropped off a step bank that was about a couple hundred feet from whee it had been every other time he ran the trail. The sucked water (the snorkel went on a couple of weeks later) and that was the end of any forward motion. They hiked all night to the road and found someone with a cell phone to borrow and we went out to retrieve the rig. Luckily it is a fairly tall rig so while they had water pouring in as they foundered in the dark, they were not underwater like a rig like a stock '80 would have been.
For those who have never had reason to think about it... a drysuit like I am wearing has a lot of natural flotation and I am floating/treadong water beside the rig there... no stilts required
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
It was not a jab at Californians really. If I was jabbing Californians I would have *said* that you all had thin skins instead of asking him if that was his excuse. It was a jab at Charlie who introduced himself by calling me an a$$hole and making other attempts at insulting me.
As I said... I have no need for Charlie so he is welcome to his opinion.
I know you did not mean your comment about knowing what Alaska has to offer as combative, so I will not take it that way. But really... you got a glimpse of Alaska perhaps. Living/working in Talkeetna for 6 months would not really let you get a real grip on things any moe than living in Atlanta for 6 mothns would give you a complete picture of the American South. Anymore than I would "know" California from 6 moths in LA.
Mark...
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Hey Mark,
Trying to keep some semblance of tech here... I remember reading a three-part article you wrote circa 1998-99 about water crossings; "Into the Drink and Back" (or something to that effect). It was hosted on Rockcrawler.com for a number of years but seems to have drifted into the internet void.
It was an excellent article about vehicle preparation, electronics protection and water crossing technique. Do you still have a copy somewhere or know where we could find it on the net? Might be a good resource for those whose interest in water crossings has been sparked by this chat.
Trying to keep some semblance of tech here... I remember reading a three-part article you wrote circa 1998-99 about water crossings; "Into the Drink and Back" (or something to that effect). It was hosted on Rockcrawler.com for a number of years but seems to have drifted into the internet void.
It was an excellent article about vehicle preparation, electronics protection and water crossing technique. Do you still have a copy somewhere or know where we could find it on the net? Might be a good resource for those whose interest in water crossings has been sparked by this chat.
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
I actually asked Brian to pull it when he bought Rockcrawler. There were some things I would suggest differently now than I would have 12-15 years ago. No longer a fan if electric fans or blocking off radiators for deep crossings for example...
He wanted to leave it there until I wrote another version for him. but it looks like he removed all the old Rockcrawler content anyway.
It ran in Toyota Trails also. My copy of it is on a hard drive in an otherwise dead computer. One of these days I will pull it out I guess. Or just re-write it.
Mark...
He wanted to leave it there until I wrote another version for him. but it looks like he removed all the old Rockcrawler content anyway.
It ran in Toyota Trails also. My copy of it is on a hard drive in an otherwise dead computer.
One of these days I will pull it out I guess. Or just re-write it.Mark...
Aj, glad you and the truck are fine.
(so, do I understand correctly that if they don't bill you for this little adventure, I can come up to Paso to collect on my share of the taxes used to fund your fun aerials? A dinner and afterdinner drinks would probably do fine... although a day showing me the trails around there would be better... well at least if you stray clear of waterways )
(so, do I understand correctly that if they don't bill you for this little adventure, I can come up to Paso to collect on my share of the taxes used to fund your fun aerials? A dinner and afterdinner drinks would probably do fine... although a day showing me the trails around there would be better... well at least if you stray clear of waterways
)
- Thread starter
- #149
Drinks on me, consider it an early partial tax refundAj, glad you and the truck are fine.
(so, do I understand correctly that if they don't bill you for this little adventure, I can come up to Paso to collect on my share of the taxes used to fund your fun aerials? A dinner and afterdinner drinks would probably do fine... although a day showing me the trails around there would be better... well at least if you stray clear of waterways
Maybe when the riverbed has dried out, we can navigate that...believe or not, I had to pull a guy out a month ago because he got high-centered in his pathfinder on a sandbar. The sand was very firm, and I pulled him out of his predicament with very little difficulty and with nothing more than a tow strap. Who knew the shoe would be on the other foot a month down the road, right?
I'll do some asking around as far as the other trails go...as I stated earlier, I am a novice and am not all too familiar with the trails around here. There are some other central coasters on MUD that probably have a better knowledge than I do. I will have to ask them.
Thanks Mark. That is all good info that goes beyond common sense to reflect experience. The following common sense, that may not be so common, is probably the best summary:
''ALWAYS have a plan that addresses what you will do if you do not make it across!''
Probably the hardest thing to do is to admit that you or your gear are not up to a challenge and then choosing to stay home, taking the other route, call for help, hike out, spend another day until things dry out, etc., etc., etc.
In my Southern Utah Monsoon incident I probably should have done something different. Hard to know what even with hindsight. The second rig was supposed to meet us on Day 2, but there had been so much rain overnight he couldn't make it up the mountain. The other rig that was camping near us didn't wait for us to finish packing so we could go out together. I had my wife and 4 kids, plus one of their friends so staying in the rain when all our gear was soaked wasn't a great option. What do you do? My tires were NOT right for the situation and my experience level wasn't where it needed to be deal with the flooded muck. We got out OK, but it was a lot of white knuckle sliding down the mountain and fighting through the flooding trail.
I just found my write up on the forum of this trip. I didn't divulge everything there, probably because I didn't want to get flamed, but, it's a few years later and I'm a little wiser for it I hope. No pictures of the flooding...too busy driving.
So, common sense number 2: Check the weather before you go.
''ALWAYS have a plan that addresses what you will do if you do not make it across!''
Probably the hardest thing to do is to admit that you or your gear are not up to a challenge and then choosing to stay home, taking the other route, call for help, hike out, spend another day until things dry out, etc., etc., etc.
In my Southern Utah Monsoon incident I probably should have done something different. Hard to know what even with hindsight. The second rig was supposed to meet us on Day 2, but there had been so much rain overnight he couldn't make it up the mountain. The other rig that was camping near us didn't wait for us to finish packing so we could go out together. I had my wife and 4 kids, plus one of their friends so staying in the rain when all our gear was soaked wasn't a great option. What do you do? My tires were NOT right for the situation and my experience level wasn't where it needed to be deal with the flooded muck. We got out OK, but it was a lot of white knuckle sliding down the mountain and fighting through the flooding trail.
I just found my write up on the forum of this trip. I didn't divulge everything there, probably because I didn't want to get flamed, but, it's a few years later and I'm a little wiser for it I hope. No pictures of the flooding...too busy driving.
So, common sense number 2: Check the weather before you go.
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
I can remember a couple of times years ago when I was young(er) and dumb(er) with kids in the rig and while I did not really see it that way at the time, I can look back and realize that I made some calls that put us all at risk and I did not even really see it that way then. Or times when I did not do anything wrong, but there were still risks for other reasons that I did not appreciate at the time. It is one thing to take risks yourself when no one else is affected and you are aware of it. When your choices and actions affect others, even if you are not being irresponsible... that changes everything.
A couple of years ago, my buddy Kevin and his wife myself and Ratpuke were about 80 miles into the bush when the output shaft on my doubler in my '40 snapped. Nothing that anyone did wrong, nothing that could be foreseen. To get where we were had involved dozens of river crossings, and a couple of bogs/marshes that needed both rigs working together to get through. Now we had to get all four of us and a dog back to the road system in just one '40. And we had to keep enough gear with us so that if we became stuck we could make the several day hike out on foot.
We managed to blaze new trail around the marshes and we made it out in a couple of hard days of driving. But before we set out we sat down and planned in case it did not go so smoothly. And to some degree we had planned for this before we left home. Not this specific failure, but we had made sure that we were ready and able to hike over 100 miles back to the road if we had to. Were not looking forward to the possibility... but were prepared for it.
A couple of years ago, my buddy Kevin and his wife myself and Ratpuke were about 80 miles into the bush when the output shaft on my doubler in my '40 snapped. Nothing that anyone did wrong, nothing that could be foreseen. To get where we were had involved dozens of river crossings, and a couple of bogs/marshes that needed both rigs working together to get through. Now we had to get all four of us and a dog back to the road system in just one '40. And we had to keep enough gear with us so that if we became stuck we could make the several day hike out on foot.
We managed to blaze new trail around the marshes and we made it out in a couple of hard days of driving. But before we set out we sat down and planned in case it did not go so smoothly. And to some degree we had planned for this before we left home. Not this specific failure, but we had made sure that we were ready and able to hike over 100 miles back to the road if we had to. Were not looking forward to the possibility... but were prepared for it.
There are some big ranches in Texas and I have hunted on them including the King Ranch (880,000 acres) and the Kennedy Ranch (330,000 acres) but about the longest distance I can ever remember being from a "paved" road was about 30 miles or so and there were likely some houses between where I was and the paved road. 100 miles really is a frightening distance....this is potentially dying distance if you don't have enough clean water. Alaska is pretty awe inspiring....so is Canada.
I sure would like to read this. Maybe we could get Romer to put it somewhere easy to get to. I started making mods to my LC because of scary water crossings (and almost rolling my truck....and getting stuck in the mud
). Water crossings are one of the perils people know least about. The reason I am suggesting this is because I have probably learned more from this thread about water crossing than anywhere else - even more than I learned from the school of hard knocks. I have it bookmarked for further use.
Mark, I think I remember reading that article you wrote a while back. I might even have a printed copy stashed away somewhere.
Will you go into some more details about the above?
Will you go into some more details about the above?
Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
I should say that I am not as much of a proponent of these two approaches as I was.
I have realized that a correctly spaced clutch fan will not flex into the radiator. And if you are correctly waterproofed, any water flung about under the hood by the (slowed in any case) fan is irrelevant.
Along with that, few electric fans can move anything close to what an OEM clutch fan will. And they will wear out sooner and fail more often. Not to mentioning more systems than must function to keep the engine cool.
So... for my uses, the electric fan is reserved for rigs where a clutch fan will not fit. Long term durability, reliability and simplicity matters a lot to me. For some people. particularly for those whose rigs are pure weekend toys, this may not be as important.
The approach of blocking water flow against the grill to try to keep the levels under the hood lower simply is not important if your rig is water proofed and snorkeled well. It is not all that effective if you are stopping or even slowing a lot during the crossing, or if you are dealing with real strong current. Not to mention it is a real PITA when you are crossing and recrossing every few minutes all day long.
Mark...
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Mark W
Yep, it's true. I just don't care that much.
I went back and looked at your post because something you had said was rattling around in the back of my head...
This person that was camping near you... I hope that it at least was someone that you did not know, and that you had no interaction with. If it was a friend who took off without you, or even someone you had talked with and understood that you were heading out with a load of kids in a stock rig under questionable circumstances... That seems to me to be pretty unacceptable behavior.
As your little stuck in the slime on the way out illustrates... when you are alone even a little thing can be a major problem. With two rigs the same situation hardly even gets your attention
Sounds like you made it out okay in the end though. No thanks to the folks who left you.
Mark...
Good catch. He was a stranger who pulled in late in the storm. I helped him set up tarps after midnight in the rain to keep his family and tents dry. In the morning I asked him if he'd stick around for another thirty minutes and we could go out together, he said if he was still there when I was ready to go we could. Nope. It took me extra time because the littles were cold and wet and needed mom, so I was left to take down camp and load the trailer with the limited help of soggy pre-teens. We got out in good spirits...mostly. But yeah, like most things, it's better with a buddy. My buddy dented up his rig the night before we pulled out sliding around trying to get up to me before he decided it just wasn't going to work, so he did try. It was just a bad situation. I could have avoided it by checking the weather before heading up. My rig was adequate for what I expected to encounter, I should have been prepared for what I didn't expect.
