Yeah, I searched....(76 Pig 2F Tech Query Inside)

[Delancy]

Will preface with:

I've read all of the threads regarding and my brain has turned to mush as a result.

I have spoken to as many of those "in the know" that'll give me the time of day. I

do realize there's a 40/55 Tech section, but since we're all family here and most of y'all are patient dealing with my overall ignorance, figured the better forum.

No SBCs for me please. If were going V8, it'd have to a 2UZ and, obviously, mastering the F series would be advantageous first. Ha.

Now, that that's out of the way.

My goal is to completely pre-build, down to the most minor detail, within this thread.

I've been plotting, planning, acquiring components for the 76 2F+(**), with the following basic criteria:

1.) Keep the block with date correlating casting numbers.

It means something to me.

2.) Remain carbureted. (This I'm second guessing, but too late to spend anytime, turned around looking back, all things considered.)

3.) Reliable.

4.) On road only.

(Around town, some highway. The purpose of the 76 is to replace the part time DD functions the FJC has been performing....since they're about to be uber rare. Ha.)

5.) Finish smog removal, cleanly.

6.) Add a little more arse, without sacrificing reliability.

7.) Not concerned about premium fuel requirements.

8.) Accommodations for PS and AC.

8.) Not a resto, but attempting to keep it OE-ish and utilize OE parts, if at all possible.

Original, basic list:

OE block bored and decked.
OS flat top pistons.
Rebuilt lower end.
85-87 2F (3F) head milled and valves ground.
3F intake/exhaust manifold.
3F de smogged carb.
Big cap dizzy and igniter
New oil pump, possibly improved.
New oil cooler, possibly improved.

So the short list. I don't want to make declarations, but requesting input on the overall scope.

Attempting to truncate the original post, so will continue in others.

 

[Delancy]

Pistons/Rods

OE 2F OS flat tops are still available, but don't intend to bore for CCs, but marginally, as required.

Not certain that's the right position, but based on interpretations of the posts of many, so open to suggestions.

An excerpt.

On the rods, newer is definitely better. As Mark mentioned, it's marginally lighter, but it's also much stronger because of the extra finishing on the I-beam.

In the photo, the lighter rod is the one that *appears* to have the i-beam machined. It is not machined, it has been "forged" along the i-beam. While the rod is still red-hot, the beam gets smacked in a press which compresses and aligns the grain on the edges of the I-beam. The flat areas are not machined away, but are made stronger. The rod picks up fatigue resistance by dint of the edges of the I-beam being much more crack resistant. The actual tensile strength of the rod beam is not significantly improved, but it is much stronger/durable in use because failures usually start as a crack at the outside edge of the beam. more resistant to edge cracking = more resistant to ultimate failure

Thanks Steve for posting the pics

Wristpin diameter- .990" Length- 7.50" crankpin bore= sumthin fudged up metric. Why leave 2 critical dimensions in imperial, and then metrify the 3rd critical dimension? I dunno. For fun, here's a pic of a BBC rod and a 2F rod. Hard to tell them apart.

 

[Delancy]

Cam Thinking the "Torquer" is generally accepted on "built"dual purpose:

A 262 degree (advertised) duration cam will wake your 2F up nicely and will happily pull to and beyond 5000 if the rest of the motor is matched to it.

I've got an aftermarket "torquer" type cam in my Pig, LOVE IT! I don't know the brand name or who made it, found it in an old block and my machine shop reground it for me. My old late F would red-line at 3K, maybe 3200. Rebuilt, it tachs 4K easy. Will do 5K when necessary, maybe more. It gets to 4 or 5k faster than the old mill would get to 3K. 'Cruises on the freeway much better than stock, not straining or screaming at all. Does pretty well off-road as well.

The cam range I like is the one that downey lists as their 224 degree (that is measured at roughly .050 of lift. Clifford used to sell this grind as a "260" duration cam and the one I uses is sold as "262" degrees (this measurment is total duration). MAF has a similar cam. Specter *may*, I don't remember right now. All of these will give you pretty comparable lift (in the low to mid .440 range) The limiting factor in how much lift you get from the cam is directly related to the size of the base circle. A smaller circle has to have a steeper lobe than one with a larger base circle. The steeper lobe puts more stress on the material of the cam and the lifter. Anyway for the same engine, most cam makers will have similar duration:lift relationships.

I'm just about to restock a new batch of regrinds. I usually stick with a single grind that works better for me than the rest. 262 advertised duration, 214 at .050. 441 valve lift IIRC (I'd have to check, I don't have any numbers in front of me right now). Any of the cams adverttised with similar duration will be pretty much the saem thing. This cam also works very well with a late model Aisan on top of the large runner facgtory manifold (if you can find on). VERY well.

But the "Performance" has similar statements, too:

Delta Camshaft Inc. Perf 250 S grind Duration intake 250 Duration exhaust 254 Intakes opens 17, closes 58 Exhaust opens 60 closes 14 cam rise .255 L/C 108 degrees Lash intake .014 exhaust .014 I am very happy with mine. Runs strong on the freeway or wheeling.

The answer ( for me ) lies in the Delta 250s cam This cam is very similar to stock . The intake timing is similar to a 2F cam , the exh timing is similar to 3F cam . The duration at 0.050 = 215* ( compared to stock that is 189* ) . The overlap is practically the same as stock ( 31 vs 32 ) . The duration @0.050" is slightly lower than the 262 RV camshaft but advertised duration is a lot lower . Thus the valve will lift quickly and close quickly as it does in OEM . The low overlap will also mean that vacuum in the manifold remains high-ish . This cam will thus give the same torque features of a stock 2F but due to the longer duration @ 0.050 is will rev comfortably above 3000rpm . Jim's concern was that this cam will require premium gas due to the low overlap in the high compression engine . He himself uses a MC803 cam in his 4,5l overbore 2F with 8.8:1 compression . He says : Delta cams in the US answered my question to them : Another thing I added to my build was the ARP conrod bolts - maybe overkill ( but I like overkill )

So begs the questions:

Are regrinds acceptable from a long term durability perspective?

Is there a benefit to a reground OE versus an aftermarket?

Is a solid cam gear a necessity, or a prudent measure?

 

[Delancy]

Head The head is the current quandary, in all honesty, because I've access to a rebuilt 86 head that valves and surfacing have been completed, within OE specs, but not milled a specific amount, and hear .30 bandied around frequently.

My thought process on the 85-87 head involved Jim Cs comments regarding it as a 2F(3F) head, in the "Best 2F" thread.

In 85 they got: -the 3F cylinder head, which gives the option of running the 3F manifolds -the 3F head gasket with better coolant flow direction -screw in oil galley plugs (I really like this) -slight improvement w/ the 3piece thrust bearing -torx screws in timing plate(which should be added to any engine).

Realize not all is pertinent to the head alone, but didn't want to chop up his comments, since other info is relevant to the overall query.

In further investigations, it was discovered that the 85-87 2F(3F) head varies from later model 3F heads, but the 2F(3F) head is improved in the gasket design and the 3F manifolds attachment points are all there's though the 3F manifolds will bolt to any previous head with a few used locations.

 

[Delancy]

Carb, Dizzy, Ignition

Trollhole 3F carb with corresponding isolator.

60 series big cap dizzy and igniter.

Kinda clueless as we all know, so hoping for input on all aspects.

If I hadn't had all this time awaiting title procurement, I couldn't have gotten in as deep as I am already, but it is what it is.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Cams...a new properly hardened cam is better for longevity IMO over a regrind, altho I am running the Delta 262 cam now and it is a monster. Lopey and about 15-16"s of vacuum at 3000 feet. I had them grind my lifters- now my machinist said they didn't look very good...I dunno if he wanted that work and was bitter,or if they really looked that bad, but so far so good. New might be a better plan. My next 2F is going to use the same profile cam- Delta or ???, jourey is still out- but I will might use a toyota cam gear. I think now that I run a solid they are noisier and who knows the long term wear affects of the lack of buffering. I guess the idea of a cam precludes the idea of longevity, But I hope to gain the bennies of the profile with the buffering of the stock gear. More to follow...

 

[Pighead]

So, what's the question?

 

[tucker74]

Dude,

If you're going to all the trouble with the head throw EFI on top, you won't regret it. Mine was the most fun to drive F-powered Cruiser I've ever owned

https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/360924-3fe-adventure.html

On a semi-related note (to your rambling anyway), I'm seriously considering going 1UZ in mine. I've got a line on everything I need to adapt it to my H55 for reasonable money ... but I'm still having fun with the stinky. Let me know if you have an inkling to head that direction and I'll get you some details, all Toyota V8 gets me pondering

Tucker

 

[Delancy]

So, what's the question?

Am I in the right track?

 

[Delancy]

Dude,
If you're going to all the trouble with the head throw EFI on top, you won't regret it. Mine was the most fun to drive F-powered Cruiser I've ever owned

One year, two weeks, and four days later ....

We have ignition

Tucker

I haven't the skills nor local resources, at this time, plus you swapped a 3FE. Thinking if I were to embark on, I'd go either 2FE or TBI, but neither seem possible in the length of time I have with the current skill set.

Originally, this began as a search for replacement manifolds and OE carb, since all are bolt on, and with intent to clean up the smog removal and heat riser, since Jim C confirmed it ain't right.

From email, but word for word, so quoted.

The hot water heat riser should be kept, but it needs routed correctly. It appears the hoses are currently tapped into the oil cooler.
One hose should go from cyl head heater outlet to heat riser,
Other hose goes from riser to heater valve

In the spirit of idealism, wanted to keep the carb and not alter anything beyond what could be changed back to the current form, but that was before I really intended to DD.

A 2FE would be about all I'd think I'd really consider, IF I could even liquidate the unobtanium parts I've already acquired.

(to your rambling anyway)

I'm hurt.

Dude
I'm seriously considering going 1UZ in mine. I've got a line on everything I need to adapt it to my H55 for reasonable money ... but I'm still having fun with the stinky. Let me know if you have an inkling to head that direction and I'll get you some details, all Toyota V8 gets me pondering

I'm interested in, for sure, but lack the time to execute for this Pig specifically.....unless you're offering space in the shop for a Guinea pig.

 

[tucker74]

To be fair, we had our first kiddo right in the middle of that. Point taken though. If I was doing it again I'd do a 2FE stroker, essentially 3F head on a late 2F block with the EFI. Why are you going so deep if you want to keep this on the road? I've only seen a handful of 2Fs that actually need a bottom end, clean it up, seal it and run the old girl. You can always take on something like this once the '72 is on the road -

My $.02 -

Tucker

 

[OGBeno]

To be fair, we had our first kiddo right in the middle of that. Point taken though. If I was doing it again I'd do a 2FE stroker, essentially 3F head on a late 2F block with the EFI. Why are you going so deep if you want to keep this on the road? I've only seen a handful of 2Fs that actually need a bottom end, clean it up, seal it and run the old girl. You can always take on something like this once the '72 is on the road -

My $.02 -

Tucker

x2.

But Chris already knows my feelings on this matter.

 

[Delancy]

To be fair, we had our first kiddo right in the middle of that. Point taken though.

Take no offense, because none intended.

It'd take me epic amounts of time to complete anything much more mundane than this, for instance the two years on the 80 suspension that's still only 85% complete.

If I was doing it again I'd do a 2FE stroker, essentially 3F head on a late 2F block with the EFI.

Please further you're explanation.

Do you mean a 3FE head?

I'd assume, but I've learned that there are vast differences in semantics regarding.

Why are you going so deep if you want to keep this on the road?

Because I'm stupid.

You must've missed the 80 build.

All I can say in defense is, I'm afflicted with a "while I'm in there" disease, which can be a curse or a blessing.

On the 76 specific to this thread, it say for many years, unknown previous history, the block number coincides with production date, would like to do whatever can be done to ensure another 37 years of use, and do it while parts are still available.

Like I say, this began as a search for manifolds and carb, due to the exhaust leak, poorly routed exhaust, and desire to return to OE.

The 3F manifolds do offer a few benefits over the 2F, especially when they're new, but require a 3F carb. Couldn't find an OE 3F carb, so sourced through Trollhole, along with OE insulator,

I've only seen a handful of 2Fs that actually need a bottom end, clean it up, seal it and run the old girl.

My concern is not doing it now, when OE parts are available, and regretting it later.

You can always take on something like this once the '72 is on the road -

I hear you, there.

Unfortunately, I've already embarked on a refresh of other areas, some necessary, some PM, so I've a solid thirty days of work once I have title in hand.

By the sounds of it, the entire drivetrain will remove to do, so, while its out, if planned properly, was thinking it'd be as good a time as any to address, IF the complexity wasn't beyond current resources and situational arrangements.

I've considered the "absolute, very least" scenario of resealing, adjusting valves, then running the 3F manifolds and carb, along with finishing smog removal and cleaning up other areas that aren't, but if it's out and torn down to that point, why not rework the lower end, put a newer head on it, and be done with it for many years to come?

Just my way of thinking and no candy coating required.

 

[Delancy]

x2. But Chris already knows my feelings on this matter.

Refresh my memory, please.



Can only think of one other person that "knows me" better, so you're fully aware of the depths of my mental deficiencies.

Did you ever for one second believe it'd be any other way?

I've had the time, so have planned most very thoroughly and have about a 30-45 day timeline to get it all the mechanical done, once it commences, assuming "done" is quantified, mechanically speaking.

It makes sense to me, but am I really being that foolish?

 

[Pighead]

Am I in the right track?

You're going off the rails on a crazy train...

But, while you're in there, try to find that old TT article by Mr. Whatley on adding an external oil pressure relief valve to a 2F block and running the oil cooler off of that...
And, while you're doing the head, ask about cleaning up the combustion chamber (my machine shop called it a "Bowl Job" (BE SURE to pronounce it correctly!). Also, porting and polishing the intake to the head cannot hurt. Perhaps look into putting the chevy valves in the head.
Did you mention balancing yet? (it's a long thread already, I have not hung on every word) VERY important.
I see no problem putting an Aisin carb on it, I like carbs.

 

[Delancy]

You're going off the rails on a crazy train...

For some odd reason, this derailment hasn't been as much fun as the many others....

But, while you're in there, try to find that old TT article by Mr. Whatley on adding an external oil pressure relief valve to a 2F block and running the oil cooler off of that....

That I haven't read....

And, while you're doing the head, ask about cleaning up the combustion chamber (my machine shop called it a "Bowl Job" (BE SURE to pronounce it correctly!).

Now that it's been said, I'll expect the slip up.

Hopefully a EOE machine shop can be found.

Also, porting and polishing the intake to the head cannot hurt. Perhaps look into putting the chevy valves in the head.

It's Mark's head work, at this point.

Did you mention balancing yet? (it's a long thread already, I have not hung on every word) VERY important.

Have read and understand the benefits of and on board for.

I see no problem putting an Aisin carb on it

I didn't either.......until I couldn't find one anywhere in the world for sale.

I like carbs.

I thought that maintaining the carb held truer to the era and overall experience, but have been told to throw idealism out the window for a more pragmatic approach.

It's not that I'm not listening to sensibility, but at where does it stop?

It's entirely too sensible to spend 1/5th on a Chebby, with double the HP that can be rebuilt by a trip through Autozone, so we're all irrational in some respects and to some degree.

That's said, after a lengthy discussion (which surprised the chit out of me) with a renowned old timer, it was said "I wouldn't refuse to do that at my shop" to which I count as a pseudo-blessing and solidifies the desire to continue carbureted and say to hell with common sense.

All that before hearing horror stories about hack jobs by customers whose experience and automotive abilities far exceed mine.

 

[Pighead]

That I haven't read....

Well, it was many, many years ago. I've not seen it since. I considered doing it on the TWRECKS rebuild, but time was short. It involved drilling a couple holes in the block for oil in & out and a couple tapped holes to hold the early F oil pressure relief valve to the 2F block, replicating the early F mounting. Apparently, the 2F oil passages are similar enough to allow this. The oil output from the relief valve went to an oil cooler in front of the radiator and returned to the in port on the relief valve. This would theoretically improve oiling to the main bearings, and stuff. Perhaps Mr. Whatley still has a copy that he could send you, or perhaps some improvements dreamed up over the last decade.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

over bore to clean up cylinder walls, replace pistons pins and rings as needed. polish crank. check rods, resize if needed. grind cam. replace lifters. deck block ONLY for flatness- same with head. balance rotating assembly. mill head to block mating surface for flatness ONLY. mill head to manifold mating surface for flatness only. Chevy stainless valves, reaming guides as needed and grinding seats as needed. have machinist provide springs and hardware... My head has the 1.6" valves. it was a point of concern of mine as the machinist was determined to use the larger than requested exhaust valves(about 300 extra bux worth of work- it was trade work)...toyota exhaust ports are about twice the size of a similar sized jeep motor so I don't know how much this matters, but the thing barks like a dang dog and runs like a racehorse. I may do this same valve dimension on the next engine, FWIW. as stated earlier, I will use the toyota cam gear next go round. this and your 3F manifold and carb should be more than the average 2F. I didn't mill anything to gain compression- I want to stay on 87 octane. I can rev up to and over 4K, with the power band beginning at about 2400 and going well into the 4s...

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

and get a new balancer...I'm going to be on the market for one before too long...HTH

 

[Midgainc]

Here is a thought....why not tune up what you have, possibly get a new cam, rebuild carb, and as an experiment, see how long you can drive it without trouble?

I am thinking that if performance is what you really want, you are forcing it on the wrong vehicle with the wrong tools. A pig is a 5000lb beast that needs serious cubic inches and mods to perform. Why go through all of the trouble you are mentioning for only a 20-25 percent improvement? These things are made to creep through the Serengeti at 2 mph for days at a time or through a South American rain forest at the same rate. They were never designed for 70 mph interstate travel, taking curves, or a silky smooth ride. Why labor so much for so little to gain?