Yeah, I searched....(76 Pig 2F Tech Query Inside)

[Delancy]

Why labor so much for so little to gain?

A part of the gain, James, is doing this before parts go the way of the dodo, that factoring in at ten times the importance level of any performance gain.

That, and the exhaust manifold leak (possibly intake. I can't tell), header issues (can feel it. Can't find it) carb plumbing, be it heat riser or vacuum lines incorrectly routed.

Drivetrain is coming out to seal the TC and tranny, so my thinking was, why not do it all, ensuring another 37 years of operation, while I can get the parts to do it?

As far as perceived performance gains, they're secondary in a butt dyno way.

The later head is stated by the gurus to be superior in design. It's not available "new", so will have to be rebuilt anyway.

Later pistons and rods are stated "improved", well the rods are, pistons have to swap regardless, in this plan.

The manifolds afford minor benefits, (I'm being honest here. I know they're roll is marginal in the scheme of things) in the two piece exhaust manifold design minimizing warpage, plus the two piece does allow for a freer flowing exhaust (which all has to be redone, anyway. Another factor).

I tried to find an OE carb, considering the 3F carbs weren't ever a smogged item and would've adapted to a de-smogged, recurved dizzy, to no avail, but Marshall had a 3F knockoff.

So, have manifolds for a later head, later head is stated superior, already need exhaust, dizzy/ignition, why not go all the way?

That was my thinking, but after it being stated by the carb man in and FI world that the most critical time in a rebuilt F series is the first 30 seconds after starting up, post rebuild, I'm concerned if I can even pull it off.

 

[tucker74]

I already gave my opinion so I'll stop at that, it seems you've got a plan. When do we start?



Tucker

 

[Delancy]

I already gave my opinion so I'll stop at that, it seems you've got a plan. When do we start?



Tucker

Again, don't take offense.

I considered 2FE, but in all honesty, didn't think I had the aptitude or resources to pull it off and I'm living in a dream world of maintaining the essence of the era, in the carb.

Now, I question wether I can pull even this off, but forging on, in hopes that determination can make up for lacking abilities.

I have the manifolds and all other necessary components to rebuild/reseal the major mechanical systems, except the engine internals (have all seals for)

The carb, insulator, oil pump, oil cooler, are on the way.

About all else I can see getting in advance of tearing it down are the head, cam, dizzy and igniter, possibly the indented cover, since I'm under the impression that the 60 dizzy and ignition is the way to go.

Had an arrangement on an 86 head, rebuilt to OE specs from a reputable source, but Mudship deal disintegrated and looking at $200 to ship. Not certain that the OE specs are advantageous, and sure question the overall expense, all things considered. (Not the vendors price. I'm certain it's fair, but $200 to get it here is a lot).

Have a few calls to make today, that may determine the "how" and "who".

So, questions for input, if y'all would be so kind:

Head-

Is the rebuilt 86 head the way to go?

I'm sure it's been surfaced and all else done properly and by the book. This particular vendor isn't one I'd question.

The alternative is the crap shoot of finding a known rebuildable, then having milled, valves selected and ground, along with the blow job Pighead suggested.

Dizzy/Ign-

Source a 60 big cap, igniter, cover and have recurved?

I know carb is desmogged, but a complete assumption that it's adaptable, and I've asked too many questions of that vendor, already.

 

[tucker74]

Again, don't take offense.

No offense taken, advise is free

Head-

Is the rebuilt 86 head the way to go?

I'm sure it's been surfaced and all else done properly and by the book. This particular vendor isn't one I'd question.

The alternative is the crap shoot of finding a known rebuildable, then having milled, valves selected and ground, along with the blow job Pighead suggested.

It depends on what he is charging, I know I spent ~$600 to have my 1FZ head done here locally, it would have been ~$400 just to clean inspect and have the head surface milled. The added expense was having the valves/seats machined, which is what you'd need to do what LAMBCRUSHER is suggesting (+ parts). Keep that in mind when you're comparing prices. Another option could be to buy a late head from CruiserYard here in Austin and having my guy do it, one of our local guys travels back and forth to OKC pretty regularly. I'm thinking a rebuild-able head + head work is gonna get pricey pretty quick. I'd be willing to help though if you don't have a local guy you can trust.

Dizzy/Ign-

Source a 60 big cap, igniter, cover and have recurved?

Yup - JimC is the way to go there

Tucker

 

[Delancy]

Rebuilt 86 head - $550.00
Boxing- $50.00
Est freight $160.00

Not saying the vendors charges aren't fair, since it's a given that its all done 110% correctly, but wouldn't make sense, since milling, valve change, and blow job are potentially advantageous.

 

[tucker74]

Not saying the vendors charges aren't fair, since it's a given that its all done 110% correctly, but wouldn't make sense, since milling, valve change, and blow job are potentially advantageous.

I'd agree you could have all the upgrades done for that kind of money, which would be better than stock.

Tucker

 

[Delancy]

I'd be willing to help though

Thanks.

if you don't have a local guy you can trust.

There's an abundance of machinist in Tulsa, but very few old timers in the small shops.

The majority of local builders, worth their salt, state they won't touch the F engines.

Those that say "can rebuild anything" are immediately crossed of the list.

All recently validated when a local mom and pop shop I know tried finding a resource to rebuild a customers freshly rebuilt, but seized 2F, in a nice 40 that was probably an auction or eBay impulse purchase, considering the very truck idler that didn't seem to bother them.



No clue who or where the rebuild was done, but the shop owner said he didn't understand why anyone in their right mind would want an engine that was so simple, yet difficult.

No one would touch it and he wound up buying one used from the only place I sent him that'd actually return phone calls or emails.

Head work shouldn't be an issue, nor should boring, it's all the little crap that only a seasoned builder would be aware that concerns me.

Yup - JimC is the way to go there

I've quoted the source in Mud fashion, but these are email communications between Jim C. and rpezza(??) and have done so, so I can recall all in one location instead of ten.

One other thing that you don't know and I do: The 81-87 distributor is a work of art. The shaft spins on sealed ball bearings, the breaker plate advances on a proprietary large ball bearing ring, the weights pivot on teflon inserts, the distributor is sealed against dirt & water contamination, provided with a source of fresh, clean air....

These late model ditributors don't fail. By contrast, the early (E-74) points distributors are a Toyota improved copy of a Delco distributor, and as such, they are crap. Subject to leaky retards, sticking braker plates, eroded weights, worn shafts & bushings....

All E-87 have mechanical advance. Curves vary from year to year.

E-'68: Xtra small distributor, vacuum advance (correctly called "non-smog", also sold as "non-USA").

69-74: XS distributor, but w/ vac retard.

75 & early 76: small distributor, completely redesigned, very good quality points distributor. Vacuum retard.

Late '76 &77: Same, but w/ vac advance

'78: redesigned w/ Med. size screwdown, waterproof cap, electronic ignition. Vacuum advance & retard.

'79-80: dual diaphragm advance. One big advance stage for normal operation, small second stage for extra advance at hi-altitude

81-87distributor body redesigned to use large cap. Same dual diapragm advance introduced in '79.

88-92 distributor redesigned w/ out advance. Distributor pickup is a crank angle sensor, advance curve is controlled by computer.

So, to avoid appearing ignorant, if I were to specific to Jim C what I "need", based on previously discussed motor work, beyond 81-87 distributor, what else is critical?

- non US carb? (Should have vac advance, right?)

- desmogged?

- 76 2F?

- 60 ignition?

Edited: think I have this figured out.

 

[Delancy]

I'd agree you could have all the upgrades done for that kind of money, which would be better than stock.

Tucker

$350 plus shipping for magna-fluxed.

 

[tucker74]

So, to avoid appearing ignorant, if I were to specific to Jim C what I "need", based on previously discussed motor work, beyond 81-87 distributor, what else is critical?

- non US carb? (Should have vac advance, right?)

- desmogged?

These are the two things he would need to know that would be different than a stock dist -

Tucker

 

[Delancy]

These are the two things he would need to know that would be different than a stock dist -

Tucker

A stock US right?

Those two things are irrelevant on a non-US 81-87 dizzy, correct?

 

[Delancy]

On the head....for review and completion.

85-87 cast 61040-xxxx

Milled .030-.040

Ported and polished (matched to manifolds?)

Clean up combustion chamber

Valves- stainless steel Chebby valves (I don't even like saying it)

1.5" Exhaust
1.84" Intake



Plugs (??)
Galley
Freeze
Air injection

Others stuff (be back with)

Edited:

The F series engines will run on Mexican ditch water for gasoline.

They were never designed for high octane.

1978 2F nominal compression is 7.8:1

I have rebuilt a few 2fs. I have cut a lot of heads the full .100 and have never needed to worry about the gas I put in them and never have any valvetrain problems.

.02 - .03 is not going to make enough difference to bother.


Mark...

Ultimate cheap & durable head:
-remove soft plug
-steam clean
-magnaflux
-mill as much as needed
-replace softplug with allen plug
-install new SBC valves, springs, hardware, yadda...
-chase all threaded holes
-paint bright red.

The advantage to doing the SBC valves & springs and attendant seat & guide work is it costs less than returning to factory spec and gives a better result.

Any other stuff like grinding ports and manifold matching is stuff to do if you have nothing else going on in life.

Don't install heavier springs unless you enjoy replacing cams & lifters.

*IF* you need to replace valves and guides. it is very likely that your guides will be within spec and your valves/seats will simply need to be ground.

If you are looking at more than that, then, yep, Chevy stuff saves you money and gains you a tiny increase in airflow.

I have never had a problem with OEM valvesprings up to 5500rpm or so and few 2Fs are gonna be happy any higher than that. no reason for heavier.

I can't agree with Jim on the painting it red approach though. 2Fs should be black. Any other color risks organ rejection! Although I have become partial to a clear coat over the bare cast iron when a head comes back from the hot tank, or even a coat of "cast iron" paint. A subdued and elegant look without that garish Chevy feel.


Mark...

I've read too many posts on mud of people getting heads back from the shop with new guides, valves, seat, springs, yadda. IMO, if the machine shop says it needs even a few overpriced toyota guides and valves, then it's time to jump in and do the full SBC swap.

The red paint is for the "testa rossa" effect, to denote the improved head vs the stock black head. Enzo clued me in to that trick.

 

[Delancy]

Another option could be to buy a late head from CruiserYard here in Austin and having my guy do it

Your guy "basically claims any work to the head is a waste of money..."

Reiterating Mark As sentiment, but contrary to Jim Cs and Mark Ws.

Problem is, Mark A., Jim C., and Mark W. are merely names on a screen, be it Mud or email, or voices on the other end of the phone, and out of reach of actually having do any work.

I only thought that suspensions were tough, being geographically challenged, but this takes it to an entirely new level, considering expense and potential failure of the village ignorant.

 

[Pighead]

Ported and polished (matched to manifolds?)

Yes. Porting is simply matching the inside of the manifolds to the insides of the head, removing any irregularities that disturb flow. It's actually fairly easy, just time consuming. I imagine the polishing is just further smoothing of the internals to further decrease turbulence.

 

[Midgainc]

For what it's worth, I dropped my f155 head off at a local machine shop (50+ years in business) that works on import and domestic. They checked everything and the valves, and guides got a clean bill of health. $250. They painted it dark gray also. I am pleased with the work, but the start up will be the real test! Is there not a local shop like that in your area?

 

[Delancy]

Is there not a local shop like that in your area?

Many of them, but when discussing milling the head down to increase compression an unknown amount, and installing Chebby stainless valves on a head for a 37 year old block, they look at you funny.

Honestly James, if I knew my arse from my elbow when it came down to spec'ing the work to perform, any machine shop that can pay their light bill should be able to do it, but I don't and reason for all the inquiries here, in trying to determine "what" to explain to do.

What really gets me is the lack of continuity amongst those in the know. I understand no one wants to divulge secrets, but, at this point, very little of the head modifications to the +85 heads, to nestle on an older block are secret, yet there's a wide range of opinions on methods or gains.

Quite frankly, I'm in over my head on the overall engine build and lack the wherewithal to "train" a local machine shop on how to do the work, so reliant upon the resources here, which would be ok, if the processes were accepted as a standard.

Regardless, have enlisted services of a known "pro", whose on board for the head and manifold matching/porting/valves, so all's good.

Going to slowly acquire the later rods, dizzy, all the rest in anticipation of being a legal owner, and keep going forward on getting ready to tear into.

Many other developments on the overall "build" are hinging upon title, then it's off to the races to produce a Pig that can be driven from one coast to the other, without any hesitation, maximizing what's possible to and where, and refining where possible without loosing the essence of the platform.

I hope to drive this on a daily basis and limit usage of the current DD, to save for daughter to drive, or sell to free up space in the, soon to be, crowded driveway.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

I am not using vacuum advance at this point in the game...I could, but I don't feel it's lacking- at all(stock desmogged fj60 carb set-up with big cap dizzy...)send head to Jim and don't loose any more sleep over it

 

[tucker74]

Your guy "basically claims any work to the head is a waste of money..."

I have no idea where that came from, my guy was referring to the shop who did the work on my 1FZE head. This is an extremely reputable shop that does all the head work for Landcruiser Specialists here in town as well as shipping 2JZ-GTE Supra heads all over the country. I assure you he can go as mild or wild as your pockets will allow, he did amazing work on my head which is hands down 4x as complicated as a simple 2F head. CruiserYard is simply a local vendor who I happen to know as 5-6 of the specific heads you need in his parts yard.

Tucker

 

[Delancy]

I have no idea where that came from, my guy was referring to the shop who did the work on my 1FZE head.

My apologies, Tucker.

I assumed that you and Jason use the same machinist in Austin, as that was what his machinist said.

My apologies.

I need to stop assuming. I also assumed the same shop that did my 1FZ head wouldn't want any part in anything older than an 80, and feel equally as ignorant for that assumption.

Chris

 

[Delancy]

I am not using vacuum advance at this point in the game...I could, but I don't feel it's lacking- at all(stock desmogged fj60 carb set-up with big cap dizzy...)

Good to know.

I know a few of y'all can look at a carb and determine the it's story. Myself, I'm clueless.










It's stated to be identical to the other Trollhole carbs, except the elongated base, so desmogged should describe.

Requested adapting to mechanical linkages, which was said to be a non-issue. Short of that, all else is assumed.

I did try to source a 3F Aisan and corresponding dizzy, internationally, but they don't seem to exist in abundance or from a source that won't have the Feds knocking on my door.

send head to Jim and don't loose any more sleep over it

Know Jim's busy and shipping logistics/expenses have to be considered, especially since I've time to exhaust options.

Right now, I could save a small fortune by finding a known good head in the central CO area, and by small fortune, it may save $50-100 packaging and another $200-300 in shipping.

I'd think there'd be a good pool to choose from in y'alls neck of the woods, too, so going to consider options since head work and potentially block work will, most likely, be done in Colorado.

Heads are heavy, and UPS/FedEx don't like heavy.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

350-400 bucks is like insurance to getting a great head. I, of all people, know money aint cheap, but if I had paid cash for my head, it would have been in the 700 dollar club- or more. after I found out all the work that had been done, I thought,"I could have sent that thing to Jim for the same amount of sweat..." and not been questioning it's quality.../. any old head with decent valves seats, faces and seals will work just fine. Also, found most of the "tricks" regarding the machine work or building of the engines is all in the bottom end, the head is something almost any machinist SHOULD be capable of doing anywhere...you've got your mind made up you're going to mill the head for compression?