Yeah, I searched....(76 Pig 2F Tech Query Inside)

[Delancy]

you've got your mind made up you're going to mill the head for compression?

Yes....well, that's what was stated, along with decking the block and potentially boring for displacement, the latter is an assumption.

I have no qualms admitting to my ignorance in the engine department, as you're all aware, and never originally intended to do any "performance" modifications, or much beyond resealing and returning to OE (after compression test, of course) for that matter, BUT would like to DD the 76 and the piece of mind of knowing that there's no looming issues, or catastrophic failures (considering the history is spotty, but hasn't been legally driven in 13 years, so sitting) around the corner, coupled with the fact I'm pulling it anyway to reseal/refresh TC and tranny, it only makes sense to address in a long term manner.

Now, considering I want it done right, yet lack the abilities to guarantee, I have spoken to many local shops, spoken to the vendors that are prevalent on Mud, at some point, and all have expressed concern over "building" locally, due to lacking personal abilities.

Best local engine builder in town will bore, balance, head, but wants no part of the rest, and that's concerning, along with Mark's statements that the most critical time of a build is the first thirty seconds after start up and his stipulation that he won't build anything he's not present to be there for the initial cycle.

Add to that the free 2F I picked up a few weeks ago, that had 500 miles on it after being "professionally rebuilt" and I'm hesitant to undertake the process.

So, odds are, the entire engine will be seeing Colorado soon once I can get the title squared away, and once I acquire all the components that I can't source through Onur (have a list coming).

This seems to be my best option, and by all means a good one to have for the betterment of the overall restoration, and may not cost much more money based on my estimates and initial conversations with builder, plus he's experienced with achieving performance gain that are unintended, but "while I'm in there"....

CO is close, too.

Now, I'm looking for a known good head that I can get there in the near future, along with the manifolds, to begin what can occur in advance of getting engine there.

The most frustrating part is that I haven't called him sooner.

So, I don't know how much of the head will be removed, not sure how much the block will be decked, nor will I limit with stipulations regarding punching it out to more than necessary, because I fully trust that I'll be in good hands.

Side note: I swear I don't talk as much as I type.

 

[Delancy]

Latest developments.....flame suit on.

Being ordered in advance:

OE 1.5 O/S Pistons and Rings (+85)
OE Con-Rods (+85)
OE Camshaft
OE Lifters
OE Pushrods
OE Cam Gear
OE misc


Still waiting on:

OE 2F Oil Pump
OE 2F Oil Cooler
OE Insulator
Trollhole Carb


Trying to determine part numbers for:

OE Aisan 85-87 3F Non-US Carb
OE Dizzy/EI Non-US to coincide with above.

Looking for used:

85-87 Valve Cover (don't think years matter)
85-87 Head (few options exist)

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

I had to supply the correct cam plug to my machinist, BTW, make sure the right plug goes in that hole...

 

[OGBeno]

Oil Pump disco. Wonder if a 3F-E oil pump will work.... Maybe Jim will know.

 

[Delancy]

Oil Pump disco. Wonder if a 3F-E oil pump will work....

Have one on the way.....

To jog your memory, the origin is as uncertain as my freedom from federal prison.

Maybe Jim will know.

Is that subtlety?

I had to supply the correct cam plug to my machinist, BTW, make sure the right plug goes in that hole...

All kinds of plugs I've forgotten about.

 

[Delancy]

Little early for this, but the opportunity presented itself to ponder.

Initially sounds like a shipment will be coming from ACC and they're the responsible party for coating this fine work of industrial art, as part of Trollhole's Big Black 2F build:



So preliminarily planning coatings, and beginning the search for a few items that they may not have in the yard, all in an effort for the majority of auxiliary engine components to be coated before diving in.

The obvious:

Valve cover (85-87 to match head, or 76?)
Dented side panel
Oil pan
Timing cover
Oil Cooler (have a new on the way. Coat to match?)

The obvious, that I know not the individual technical terms to describe that would be included:





Would honesty like to have the majority done before, but know there will be a few things that'll have to be after the fact. The black and gray shouldn't be hard to match later, so whatever I forget or can't remove/source in advance, shouldn't be a big deal.

Head will prime and paint similar black.

Thinking the block would look good in a high temp, Freeborn Red.

Seems fitting, but not sure if ghey.

Any guidance is appreciated.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

valve cover to match air cleaner 75-80(79) have different angles and locations for pcv vent, oil fill, and air cleaner retaining bracket mounting bolts. I can't remember if there was different valve cover retaining studs...pighead will know. If you're not using a stock 2F air cleaner, then use the valve cover you like best. those parts are just the oil cooler water feed and return hard pipes and heater return hard pipe the technical term would prolly be something like pipe pump to cooler; pipe cooler to pump; pipe valve to hose...

 

[scrapdaddy]

That is a nice looking motor. No wild colors for me.

 

[Delancy]

valve cover to match air cleaner 75-80(79) have different angles and locations for pcv vent, oil fill, and air cleaner retaining bracket mounting bolts. I can't remember if there was different valve cover retaining studs...pighead will know. If you're not using a stock 2F air cleaner, then use the valve cover you like best.

Uncertain what air cleaner may fit, in all honesty.

Once the carb arrives, hoping to mock up to measure. Hopefully the existing can remain.

Probably run the 76 valve cover, unless there's some aspect of the manifolds or later head that dictate otherwise.

Don't recall reading issues with any but the earlier covers not sealing properly, but guess worthy of investigation.

those parts are just the oil cooler water feed and return hard pipes and heater return hard pipe the technical term would prolly be something like pipe pump to cooler; pipe cooler to pump; pipe valve to hose...

Thanks. Better then the part numbers I had. Ha.

That is a nice looking motor. No wild colors for me.

Most likely, it'll all be black and gray.

Recall reading where most red blocks are an indicator it's been bored, but I'll know and all that matters.

 

[PabloCruise]

Dude,

If you're going to all the trouble with the head throw EFI on top, you won't regret it. Mine was the most fun to drive F-powered Cruiser I've ever owned

https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/360924-3fe-adventure.html

On a semi-related note (to your rambling anyway), I'm seriously considering going 1UZ in mine. I've got a line on everything I need to adapt it to my H55 for reasonable money ... but I'm still having fun with the stinky. Let me know if you have an inkling to head that direction and I'll get you some details, all Toyota V8 gets me pondering

Tucker

You mean just plug in the 3FE FI? Yes, x2

 

[Pighead]

Later heads, with the improved valve train, used a different valve cover than the early 2F...
Off the top of my head (could very well be wrong here), "think" the later valve cover is not as tall as early (never owned a late 2F). Continue to "think" that the late valve cover will not fit early 2F but early will fit a late head with some work...
Please to double-check me on this.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

Later heads, with the improved valve train, used a different valve cover than the early 2F...
Off the top of my head (could very well be wrong here), "think" the later valve cover is not as tall as early (never owned a late 2F). Continue to "think" that the late valve cover will not fit early 2F but early will fit a late head with some work...
Please to double-check me on this.

FINE, i'll go unlock the seatrain CHEEZWHIZ hates price...

 

[Delancy]

Later heads, with the improved valve train, used a different valve cover than the early 2F...
Off the top of my head (could very well be wrong here), "think" the later valve cover is not as tall as early (never owned a late 2F). Continue to "think" that the late valve cover will not fit early 2F but early will fit a late head with some work...
Please to double-check me on this.

Thank you.

You bring up a valid point of consideration, being the later valve train being improved. Forum banter was it was lighter, but wasn't sure if that was better, or not.

Do you feel it'd be prudent to source the head up? (Valve cover, valve train)

I have no clue how the manifolds with the carb in place will affect the air cleaner assembly, but would assume that an 85-87 would fit both the carb/manifold.

Wether or not it'll fit in the confines of the 76 engine bay remains to be seen, since, if memory serves, the cleaner housing is the larger 80 series -ish that mounts in the front of the PS.

 

[Delancy]

More info found. Posting for posterity.

Actually, there are several differences between 81-84 2F versus the 85-87 2.5F.

The rest of the world got 3F & H55 starting in'85.

USA got screwed by receiving the H42 w/ dummy 5speed housing.

Toyota didn't want to try to smog a carbed 3F, considering all the difficulty they'd had getting the 2F to pass.

The solution: build a special 2.5F engine w/ the stroke of a 2F and the head, and other detail differences of a 3F.

This means that 85-87 2F has the following differences: 3F cylinder head w/ extra manifold bolt holes, 3F t-stat housing and gasket (goes w/ head), 3F head gasket (goes w/ head), 3F main bearings w/ separate thrust bearings, 3F oil pan w/ small drain plug, 3F torx bolts on timing plate, 3F screw in oil galley plugs...

This doesn't change the fact that the 81-87 2F engines can be swapped around as an assembly. I think miles and maintenance history are more important than year.

This contradicts all cross referencing of 3F parts, unless, as suspected very early on yet unconfirmed, the 85-87 3F is it's own beast altogether, which I'm beginning to think is the case.

85-87 US 2.5F as Jim put it, and the 85-87 non-US 3F are the same, except for the smogged carb, longer carb base, and electronic ignition. Same years of non-US 60 series received the small cap points.

Leads me to two questions, that I'd really like answers on, because I've exhausted resources (have other people's time invested) trying to search for 85-87 non US specific:

3F Aisan Carb

3F Big Cap Dizzy (85-87 EI)

Best I can surmise. and as Trollhole had previously stated, there's no difference in the 3F non-US and the 2F US carb, except for the elongated base to attach to the 3F manifold.

Yspen in South Africa confirmed with a similar statement that they utilize 2F carbs on the 3F with an adapter.

I already have the Trollhole 3F carb en route, but would have appreciated the Aisan, yet none of the parts numbers cross reference to any 60 series specific non-US, but to later year 70 series 3Fs, which have a completely different combustion chamber (like a 3FE, minus the injector pockets) than the 85-87.

(I know, it's a lot of useless info, but have spent my time and many others to get to this point, being the real meat of the matter.)

In the quest for a corresponding dizzy and igniter, have found that the 60 series big cap is for the US market, is NLA in the US, yet the same US part number is still available outside of the US dealer network.

Trollhole offers a EI big cap, though, and for the expense of one OE, could have three of his products.

So my question is, and I'm by no means asking for a quality comparison, because Trollhole's products offer what the vast majority are seeking, but

Continue the quest for a 3F desmogged specific carb, or run the Trollhole?

Source the 85-87 60 Big Cap, regardless new or used, or run the corresponding Trollhole?

The rest of the world got 3F & H55 starting in'85.

USA got screwed by receiving the H42 w/ dummy 5speed housing.

Yes, but.....



Any guesses to what's in the box?

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

gunna venture to guess an H55. NICE...trollhole on both counts. there will be virtually NO functional differences using the A/M carb and dizzy as compared to a desmogged OEM set-up, you already shelled out for em, and they're on the way. Why would you opt to hunt down and pay extra for the same results? FWIW, get it running good and strong; if you're concerned about longevity of the A/M parts, you can source factory stuff and rebuild as needed, then swap when finished, or when A/M craps out- and be driving your rig the whole while... things like carbs and dizzys are going to need attention over a long span of years and they're EASY to change out. focus on the rest of it as you've got those bases covered as it seems. the air cleaner I don't know which type your set-up will run...maybe just do a snorkle so the carb just has a top hat...the 76 hood is the raised version in order to clear the taller 2F air cleaner....just cut out what doesn't clear your air cleaner

 

[Delancy]

gunna venture to guess an H55.

trollhole on both counts. there will be virtually NO functional differences using the A/M carb and dizzy as compared to a desmogged OEM set-up, you already shelled out for em, and they're on the way.

Thanks for pushing me off the fence.

Will let Marshall know that I'd like the big cap, too.

Why would you opt to hunt down and pay extra for the same results?

It's a disease, I tell you.

air cleaner I don't know which type your set-up will run...maybe just do a snorkle so the carb just has a top hat...the 76 hood is the raised version in order to clear the taller 2F air cleaner....just cut out what doesn't clear your air cleaner

Spent a little time measuring and, assuming that the 3F Trollhole carb is the same height as an F Aisan (all I had to measure), it'll probably require some kind of adaptation at the bottom of the cleaner around 1/2" tall.



If the OE valve cover will fit on the 85-87 head and the carb does measure the same as Aisan, then thinking I could plug the unused ports, blast and coat this one.

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

there is a diff in height between the early and later 2F carbs, so I'd guess the same would be true for a late 2F to F carb height relationship. FWIW, adapters could be used to fit the air cleaner; ie, you could use either air cleaner, but the later air cleaner with the earlier vent angle is going to require so hose adaptation- I used an early air cleaner on the first incarnation of a late 2F set-up- in the engine bay of my 77 pig. I made adapter L brackets and used some sort of elbow (90*) fitting along with a fat O ring I made from a water storage tank bulkhead grommet between the carb and air cleaner- it worked then I got my hands on a late 2F air cleaner and all was good in rome. still run it, fits perfect with my late carb and late valve cover; would work perfect with trollhole 2F carb all things considered. you are leaning toward the earlier valve cover(I'll post diffs between the 2 later...)so it would lead me to believe that the earlier air cleaner would be best fit- for early 2F carb bolts right up/for late 2F carb spacer most likely needed(unless some custom L brackets were used to bring the air cleaner down the 1/2" or so in difference- NOT sure if there is room down there)( fat rubber washer around air horn lip would also work reasonably well) there will be something needed there one way or another MIGHt be best to wait till all players can tune together when considering a coating and possibility of fabrication later on...so, AFAIU, you are going to use an early block with later pistons and a later head and a 3F intake and carb...is this correct?


ps on my way to the bottom of the driveway to look at valve covers...

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

personally, I like the later valve cover better...it says 2F and TOYOTA on it, whereas the early one just has a weensy little teq stamp...the early one is about 5/16- 3/8" inch taller(7-8mm) than the later valve cover. the early would prolly bolt right up to a late head. haven't confirmed, but guess the late cover won't fit the earlier head...

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

of course it'll fit the earlier head it may not work with the earlier rocker assy...but with a late head to make up for flat top pistons, why wouldn't you use the later rockers too? I think you're good to use the early cover with the later head...might get longer studs, might have enough threads to clamp and hold without...

 

[LAMBCRUSHER]

now, I'll go measure carbs...