Would you prefer a PHEV?

[RockShoes]

A 220HP 2.8l diesel would be brilliant in a vehicle the size of an LC250. If I want to drive something more spirited I'll hop in my WRX. As for fuel pricing, the Canadian context is different from the US. Most of the time diesel is similarly priced or slightly cheaper than 87AKI in Canada (Covid and post covid aberrations not-withstanding).

 

[M1911]

It should be noted that the new Land Cruiser is not going to be a hybrid in the sense of Toyota's Prius setup (hybrid synergy drive). Just like the new Tundra, it is not marketed as a hybrid. (though it is still labeled as a hybrid) It is labeled "i-Force MAX." To quote Motor Trend,

It is what we previously referred to as a mild hybrid. It still should offer some mpg improvement, particularly in city driving.

 

[M1911]

A 220HP 2.8l diesel would be brilliant in a vehicle the size of an LC250.

I disagree strongly. The 250 is essentially the same size as the 200. While it will be lighter than the 200, I suspect it will still be over 5,000 lbs.

Toyota is now selling the 70 Series in Australia with the 2.8. Acceleration 0-60 for the 70 with the 2.8 is in excess of 10 seconds. Do you really want a vehicle that takes 10+ seconds to get to 60?

 

[RockShoes]

I disagree strongly. The 250 is essentially the same size as the 200. While it will be lighter than the 200, I suspect it will still be over 5,000 lbs.

Toyota is now selling the 70 Series in Australia with the 2.8. Acceleration 0-60 for the 70 with the 2.8 is in excess of 10 seconds. Do you really want a vehicle that takes 10+ seconds to get to 60?

I regularly drive a locked/armored 80 series with the 212HP 1FZFE. A 220HP diesel 250 wouldn't be any worse, and the gas 80 is acceptable. It's a 4x4 large SUV. It doesn't need to be fast.

 

[M1911]

I regularly drive a locked/armored 80 series with the 212HP 1FZFE. A 220HP diesel 250 wouldn't be any worse, and the gas 80 is acceptable. It's a 4x4 large SUV. It doesn't need to be fast.

0-60 in 8 seconds is not what I would call fast. But it will make it easier to keep up with traffic and merge onto busy freeways.

The 200 with the 5.7 is in the mid 6 second 0-60. The 5.7 is faster than I need, but I certainly would not want a vehicle that takes 11 seconds 0-60. YMMV.

 

[Jeremy556]

I regularly drive a locked/armored 80 series with the 212HP 1FZFE. A 220HP diesel 250 wouldn't be any worse, and the gas 80 is acceptable. It's a 4x4 large SUV. It doesn't need to be fast.

There are thousands of people who feel the same, problem is, there's probably only a few dozen that would be willing to put down $70k to buy one brand new.

 

[solidbrix]

I would love a PHEV of the LC, I'm sure it's in the works for 3-4 years down the road, or maybe an EV. Regular hybrid LC if the rumors are true at 28 mpg would be a pretty good substitute until electric goes more mainstream (excluding Tesla).

 

[RockShoes]

I just spent a substantial amount of money refreshing my 80 series (re-spray, lockers, gears, etc.). I would be willing to spend the money on a quality product, but you're probably right. There aren't enough of us. Sigh.

 

[Brown98LC]

0-60 in 8 seconds is not what I would call fast. But it will make it easier to keep up with traffic and merge onto busy freeways.

The 200 with the 5.7 is in the mid 6 second 0-60. The 5.7 is faster than I need, but I certainly would not want a vehicle that takes 11 seconds 0-60. YMYMMV.

I'm gonna shock you with this
Our Middle Eastern 5.7 200 had slightly less hp than the US version so ours was rated at 362hp.

Anyway...it was abit slower.

My 2023 1GR 300 on 33s is quicker from 0 to around 140 km/h or let's say...as quick (depending on driver) than a gcc spec 2014 LX 570 also running 33s.

Now obviously the 5 7 is better on the dunes where the torque shows and on higher speeds but I'm talking off the line here.

If you drove a 1GR 200 this would sound insanely impossible.

I have the Same engine as 200 LC 1GR but due to the weight loss (around 200kg) the GRJ300 performs much better than a GRJ200.

Not talking diesel but that hybrid 2.4 petrol u guys are gonna get in the US is gonna be quick off the line I reckon.

I also tried my luck against a 3.3 diesel 300 (on private land) and couldn't keep up. That diesel 3.3 300 is quick.

The twin turbo 3.5 300 .. Now don't even bother with that lol. Rocket.

 

[NearJetties]

Ideally I a PHEV version that can do around town errands/daily driving mostly or all on battery.

I’ve been thinking though. Can the current hybrid architecture (electric motor between sandwiched with engine/trans) facilitate a full electric mode? Or would Toyota need to add axle motors?

 

[OGBeno]

Figured this would be an interesting discussion. Assuming Toyota could have used a Li-ion pack in the J250, providing 40 mi of EV range like the RAV4 Prime, would this be preferred?

So, do you work for Toyota?

This is a very specific question.

 

[APIOQM]

So, do you work for Toyota?

This is a very specific question.

Haha, I was just hypothesizing the maximum PHEV range we could get form a TNGA-F vehicle considering packaging constraints. Though I'm now thinking 40 mi might not be feasible with our current batteries.

 

[NearJetties]

Haha, I was just hypothesizing the maximum PHEV range we could get form a TNGA-F vehicle considering packaging constraints. Though I'm now thinking 40 mi might not be feasible with our current batteries.

Sequoia hybrid battery: 1.87 kWh 288 V nickel-metal hydride

RAV4 Prime battery: 18.1 kWh 355 V lithium-ion

Was going to do some math but don’t feel like it

 

[stridertexas]

Yes I wish it was a PHEV, but it’s okay it’s not. PHEV would have been awesome though.

 

[joseywales]

No.

 

[mcgaskins]

Earlier this year, I bought a new 2023 Prius as my first hybrid and was blown away with how much I liked it. The mpg and the range was a revelation after driving Cruisers and EVs for the last decade. Ours wasn't a plug in hybrid (aka Prime) because they were basically impossible to find at the time, but I would have preferred it especially since we have a level 2 charger in the garage. I wish the 250 was available as a plug in hybrid at launch, and that's definitely what I would order if it was an option. With how constrained Toyota Prime/PHEV vehicle supply has been for the past couple of years (along with huge markups over MSRP - especially the RAV4 Prime with tech pack), I think it will be a while until we see the 250 Prime at volume here which is a bummer.

Who needs a pickup anyways?

 

[Jetboy]

Earlier this year, I bought a new 2023 Prius as my first hybrid and was blown away with how much I liked it. The mpg and the range was a revelation after driving Cruisers and EVs for the last decade. Ours wasn't a plug in hybrid (aka Prime) because they were basically impossible to find at the time, but I would have preferred it especially since we have a level 2 charger in the garage. I wish the 250 was available as a plug in hybrid at launch, and that's definitely what I would order if it was an option. With how constrained Toyota Prime/PHEV vehicle supply has been for the past couple of years (along with huge markups over MSRP - especially the RAV4 Prime with tech pack), I think it will be a while until we see the 250 Prime at volume here which is a bummer.

Who needs a pickup anyways?

How is the paint on your Prius?

My recent experience at Toyota was that the paint on the new Tundra is not great. I'm not really a paint snob. But I am a bit critical of fit and finish.

But - I saw a new black Prius outside my office about a month ago. Paint quality was exceptional. Possibly the owner had it cut and buffed? If not it was honestly remarkable for an OEM paint job. Enough that I stopped while walking by just to take a closer look at how good it was. It really was exceptionally good for a car of any price range. Even more surprising for Prius. The smother curves of the design language really show off a high quality finish.

 

[bugsnbikes]

That Prius needs some lift.

 

[mcgaskins]

That Prius needs some lift.

PRIUS 2023+

IN STOCK AND READY TO SHIP! 2023+ Toyota Prius 1.5″ Front and Rear Lift Kit - Comes with everything you need to increase your ride height 1.5” while maintaining factory ride quality, comfort, and fuel economy. Our kits are CAD designed and engineered to correct and improve camber and caster...

priusoffroad.com

 

[kalieaire]

Yes. Without hesitation. PHEV would solve all of my hangups about the hybrid. It has more than enough power. Just not for long enough. A 20kwh battery would allow you to both have full EV output up the entire length of every major pass in the USA making towing capability better than the TTv6. And it would have enough battery capacity to regen all the way down saving significantly on fuel. Not to mention that something like 25-30 miles of range would cover almost every local trip I make without needing to fire up the engine significantly extending the engine lifespan. On the trails - silent crawling would be incredibly cool. And ideally full VTG capability for powering the camp stuff or your house or ??

If Toyota actually has sorted out the solid state battery problems, the packaging could be smaller and lighter than the current battery. At 300wh/kg, a 20kwh battery would weigh about 150lbs (for the cells, fully battery pack would maybe be 300lbs.)

I'd also be fine with something like a 200hp NA 4cyl that's very well balanced and a 50kwh battery pack PHEV that is more like an EV plus range extender engine. I think Ram is on the right track with its truck design. With solid state batteries we're talking about only around 400lbs for the batteries plus the packaging. I would still prefer to drive it through a single center mounted motor or two. - Whatever the case may be - I'd want the axles mechanically linked. But that would possibly be even better than a more mild PHEV.


Just some food for thought as far as HEV vs PHEV vs BEV

IMO PHEVs would be preferable in the majority of vehicles if battery production was higher. But in a battery constrained world - HEV uses the limited battery capacity most intensely so it results in the most benefit possible in terms of overall emissions reduction and fuel savings.

Just rough numbers - a hybrid Rav4 vs regular gas version saves about 125 gallons of gas per year at 15k miles per year driven. A PHEV Rav4 would save roughly 350 gallons vs a normal one (assuming about 50% electric). But the Rav4 Prime takes 10 times as much battery capacity to roughly double the fuel savings. A Tesla Model Y saves 500 gallons of fuel per year.

Per kwh of battery you get
HEV 62.5 gal/kwh/yr
PHEV 19.5 gal/kwh/yr
EV 6.1 gal/kwh/yr

The same is roughly true for overall emissions savings. It depends on your grid, but in every case HEV beats PHEV and EV on emission reduction per kwh of battery used. If every cell in ever Tesla were used to make all new cars BEVs or PHEVs, we'd save about 10 times as much gas. Something on the order of 20 billion gallons of gas in the USA annually. That's a lot of oil we can sell to other countries and/or not buy from people we generally don't align with.

I actually have a different suggestion.

How about gasoline electric like a locomotive?

(sorry about replying w/ the quote but w/o actually typing anything, clicked the wrong button)

At any rate, this configuration would guarantee the engine works at max thermal efficiency and electric motors put out power 100% of the time. You can get rid of the transmission and transfercase and opt for some really nice locking differentials instead.

This solves the issue of packaging.

That said, PHEV is the most efficient use of existing battery manufacturing capacity since most people do most of their miles in <100 mile daily commutes.

Someone in Europe made a hybrid powerplant like this for the Tesla Model 3. Gives it 621 miles of range w/ a 17kw battery replacing the oem battery with a two piston range extender gasoline generator. Generator runs 100% of the time >45mph but runs at its most at its most efficient speed. Also, there's almost no vibration with the engine in that generator since it's harmonically balanced to perfection.

LC250 with an electric powerplant running on gasoline might be a weird feeling, but having 20KW of LiFePO4 batteries that last between 3000-5000 cycles sounds like a good option. Especially since it can run the heat pumps during winter / summer trail runs.

My biggest issue is idle fuel usage. When I'm in Alaska in the winter, we have to deal with -60°F Windchill when the actual temp is much higher at -20°F.

The problem is, the wind sucks heat out of the vehicle. Whether it be in my Tacoma or Land Cruiser, I have to keep the engine running if i'm sleeping overnight inside the camper or in the back of the 200. The other option would be to carry a gas generator on a trailer.

LC250 with gas generator and all electric drivetrain would completely solve this problem.

Also, I think it's really funny how people complain about a 2.4L Turbo from Toyota in that it has to be unreliable compared to a V6 or a V8, yet fail to remember Toyota's former reliability kings, the Inline-6 Engine (1JZ/2JZ) and 4-Cylinder engine (22RE/22RTE). Not putting shade on the 2UZ, since that's a magnificent engine as well, but Toyota's been in the engine business longer than any one of us, and this whole start stop Hybrid configuration is what is killing engines.

Once Toyota physically divorces the electric drivetrain from the internal combustion engine, the sooner we get reliability back.