1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

wiring

Discussion in '40- & 55-Series Tech' started by cruiserwanted, Mar 20, 2004.

  1. cruiserwanted

    cruiserwanted

    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 11, 2003
    Location:
    Elmwood, WI
    I was hooking my instrument cluster a couple weekends ago when my horn just starts going off. No key in ignition just horn blarring. I unhook it when it hooks to the horn. Problem I am having is have to jump the cruiser now in order for it to start. Started it today, let it ran for a good 15-20 minutes, moved it across the parking lot, turned it off, would not start 10 minutes later. ??? Anyone have any ideas as to what is going on?
     
  2. Pin_Head

    Pin_Head

    Messages:
    14,254
    Likes Received:
    1,844
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2002
    Location:
    OC, CA
    First place to look would be to see if there is a current drain on your battery when everything is off. Hook an amp meter (not volt meter) in series with + cable and the battery post. Anything more than a few milli amps is not good. If you have a drain, start pulling fuses to see which circuit is responsible for the leak. If pulling all of the fuses doesn't stop the leak, then the short is before the fuse block (eg alternator). Is your horn circuit still energized? If so, you might have shorted the wire from the steering wheel to the horn relay.

    If there is no current drain, either your battery isn't charging (corroded connections, bad alternator?) or you may have a bad battery.
     
  3. Romer

    Romer fatherofdaughterofromer Moderator

    Messages:
    10,630
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Location:
    Centennial, Colorado
    You need to go back to why your horn just started going off. Something may be shorted and causing your drain. I would take the intrument cluster back out and look around at all the connections. Look real well with a flashlight. Use the wiring diagram as an aide and take some time to identify wires, verify connectors are mated to properly and to the right connector.

    Use Pinheads description above and connect an amp meter. If it shows a draw, try demating connectors under the dash one at a time until you find the source. Use the wiring diagram from that point working your way through the chain disconnecting things in the chain until you find the source of the problem.


    Good Luck!
     
  4. sherwood

    sherwood

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    One thing that crossed my mind.....

    What model/year ?

    I looked through my Hanes, which has schematics for 1968-1982 40's, 45's, 55's and a few 60's. None of these showed a horn relay. I don't know if later models had horn relays, but if the relay was energized and you just disconnected the lead at the horn itself, the relay would continue to draw current and run your battery down.

    If you have a 40, then ...... in the words of Roseanne Rosanna-Dana,

    "NEVER MIND"

    John Sherwood '79 FJ-40
    Charlotte, NC TLCA Upstate Cruisers
     
  5. Mike S

    Mike S

    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    13
    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2003
    Weird electics usually (90% of the time) = ground faults and shorts. See above posts, and be methodical in use of the tester.

    You will probably find it, smack yourself on the forehead and say, "Simple, how could I have missed it?!". On the other hand, maybe not.

    Mike S
     
  6. bad_religion_au

    bad_religion_au

    Messages:
    2,212
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    my horn on my 76 fj40 has a relay...
     
  7. hammerhead

    hammerhead

    Messages:
    1,995
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2003
    Location:
    Central, Utah
    My '74 40 has a relay...
     
  8. cruiserwanted

    cruiserwanted

    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 11, 2003
    Location:
    Elmwood, WI
    sherwood-it is a 11/70 FJ40. I am almost positive that the horn relay is causing the drain as I just unhooked it from the horn. The fuse is for the battery/horn. If I just pull the fuse what is that going to do the battery? I do not have the horn set up on the wheel. I do not know what the PO did but if I pull the cover off the steering wheel all that is there is the steering wheel with bold no horn seat or anything for it. Now what? Should I disconnect the wiring from the relay? Or pull the fuse for the horn/battery?
     
  9. sherwood

    sherwood

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Ahhh... my mistake (first one I ever made).

    I thought I had looked at all the schematics.... upon revisiting the schematics, Hanes has convieniently (no logical reason) put the schematics in two sections, separated by 43 pages of assorted other material..... go figger' !!!

    It appears that from '72 - '77 they had horn relays and from '78 - '82, they were wired directly from the switch...... (if Hanes' schematics are more accurate than their torque values).

    I guess hanes separated the two sections of schematics by those that have or have not a horn relay ..... just to trip me up.
    :-[

    john
     
  10. hammerhead

    hammerhead

    Messages:
    1,995
    Likes Received:
    2
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2003
    Location:
    Central, Utah
    [quote author=sherwood link=board=1;threadid=13448;start=msg124582#msg124582 date=1079849124]
    Ahhh... my mistake (first one I ever made).[/quote]Bwahahaha
    ...it's a conspiracy I tell you...
     
  11. Romer

    Romer fatherofdaughterofromer Moderator

    Messages:
    10,630
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Location:
    Centennial, Colorado
    What it is going to do depends on what side the fault is on. Most likely removing the fuse will take care of it because the problem started when you installed your cluster, right? Most of that wiring is downstream from your fuses. You still need to track down the fault because if there is a short it could effect other circuits and the problem could get much more serious.

    Did you try the ammeter? With the fuse in and fuse out? Then try (with the fuse in) disconnecting stuff in the path till you better isolate it.
     
  12. sherwood

    sherwood

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Hey Cruiserwanted,

    Due to the poor printing of the Hanes manual, I can't read the letters/numbers on the relay in the drawing. Due to the fact that it says "FJ-40 series, pre-1972" I can't attest to it's accuracy. Due to the PO........ well.....

    The relay should have three terminals and a ground connection (which may be just the screws to the frame). One terminal... which should be obvious to you... is the connection to the horn itself. One terminal goes back to the horn button. One terminal is tied to the 12Volt source. The 12Volt source is the line going back to the fuse block. Also on this line to the fuse block are the cigarette lighter and the inspection light sockets. Pulling the fuse should not affect anything other than those three items.

    In other words, the relay is a switch. The twelve volts both for the coil of the relay and for the horn itself is supplied via the fuse. Pressing the horn button supplies the ground to complete the flow of current through the coil of the relay.... and that actuates the switch which connects the horn to the 12Volt source.

    Like you, I would also suspect the horn relay. Those things will occasionaly short out due to the spring weakening and/or the contacts "welding" themselves together. You can check for this by looking with your meter. You have the horn disconnected already, so,

    With the fuse in place, one of the two remaining terminals should have 12volts on it.

    Leave that one connected and disconnect the remaining wire (horn button).

    If the you still have 12Volts on the terminal that goes to the horn.... then the relay is shorted internally.

    If the 12Volts is not present on that horn wire when the horn button wire is disconnected then something is grounding out the horn button wire. Your problem is probably somewhere under the dash. Follow that horn button wire back under the dash and see where it goes.

    All these voltage measurements are made in reference to chassis ground (frame or negative post on battery).

    Since these relays often fail due to sticking/"welded" contacts.... try smacking the relay with a hammer handle or a 2x4. This sometimes works..... albeit temporarily.... and if you smack it hard enough, it could cause permanent failure of the relay ;~}

    The relay can be replace by OEM or any Single Pole/Single Throw 12V relay with contacts capable of handling at least the amp value of the Horn Fuse, or a little higher rating.... it is an intermittent service.

    john
     
  13. cruiserwanted

    cruiserwanted

    Messages:
    338
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 11, 2003
    Location:
    Elmwood, WI
    Thanks guys this clears alot of things up. I will hopefully be able to dig into this a little deeper tomorrow night depending on the weather.

    Sherwood- cleared a lot of things up. My cigarette lighter has not worked since I got the cruiser so good to know probably tied in.

    I will keep you guys posted if I can get to this in the next few days. :D

    :cheers:
     
  14. sherwood

    sherwood

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    Cigarette lighter not working is probably not related to the horn problem other than the fact that the PO is possibly connected with both problems ;~}

    But, at least you know which fuse it uses.

    We can take it off list if you want to for further trouble shooting

    john
     
  15. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,168
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    [quote author=sherwood link=board=1;threadid=13448;start=msg124594#msg124594 date=1079852186]
    Hey Cruiserwanted,

    Due to the poor printing of the Hanes manual, I.....

    john
    [/quote]

    John. Get a real manual. In all honesty, this is one of many reasons the Haynes isn't worth the paper it is printed on. (Yes, I know, there are one or two items that it does explain well, sort of) But if you really love your cruiser, you will get it an OEM manual.
     
  16. sherwood

    sherwood

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    "John, get a real manual" he said, assuming that I didn't have a real manual.

    In my sig line, I state that I have a '79.... and Cruiserwanted's post says that his '40 is a 1970 ? Did you read all my disclaimers about my questioning the accuracy of the Haynes schematics ? Hell, I find errors in my '79 wiring manual !!! But, the Haynes is all I have covering the 1970.... and is probably accurate enough for horn circuit troubleshooting.

    After 40+ years of reading schematics, and electrical/electronic troubleshooting, it's about the only thing I can contribute to the Cruiser community.... I'm not a real engine or body work man. I do it because I feel comfortable doing it and with a few years of electronic teaching experience, I feel I can communicate the troubleshooting procedures in a clear, concise, and educational manner.

    Let's see now, for my '79 I have....

    Emmissions Manual
    Body and Chassis Manual
    2F Engine Manual
    Factory Wiring Diagram
    Owner's Manual
    Land Cruiser Chassis Supplement
    Front Axle Maintenance Manual
    4 Speed Transmission Repair Manual
    Land Cruiser Maintenance Manual
    Haynes Manual
    Gregory Manual

    The first four are carried in the Cruiser, the last 6 live in the bookcase that is devoted to Cruiser related materials.
    john
     
  17. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,168
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    Sorry. I am an ass. Fawk me and everyone who looks like me. :D
     
  18. Romer

    Romer fatherofdaughterofromer Moderator

    Messages:
    10,630
    Likes Received:
    1,566
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2003
    Location:
    Centennial, Colorado
    In Dave's, defense he had no way to know you had a set of manuals. He was just (as he should) telling another cruiser head how valuable a manual is. I understand your desire to clarify, but you shouldn't take Dave's comment as an attack on you. Dave, Landpimp, Poser and a few others provide solutions for about 80% of the problems raised on this board. I have seen Dave Scan pages out of his manual, go out and make measurements on his cruiser, etc, etc.

    But, you probably just meant to clarify and didn't intend to come across so defensive. Maybe your Bezel is upside down, Dave is real sensitive to guys with upside down Bezels.
     
  19. IDave

    IDave

    Messages:
    7,168
    Media:
    1
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    21
    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Location:
    McCall, ID
    Thanks Ken. I musta got up on the wrong side of the bed this week. Sorry.
     
  20. sherwood

    sherwood

    Messages:
    176
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2003
    Location:
    Charlotte, NC
    My apolgies....... Guess I should stick to the technicalities and avoid the verbal wrestling. At 59 years of age and having had a cruiser before many here were born, and having the label of "Junior" with only 79 posts to this board, I guess I was feeling as if I was being lectured as if I was an ignorant "nooob". My ego problem.

    I'm not a "newbie".......however, the "ignorant" part does fit quite frequently.

    Guess I need to do some creative post padding
    :D

    Sorry,
    john