Winch control theory-dual solenoids

[brider]

I FINALLY got my old Warn Belleview 5687 winch to spin, so now I'm rigging up a solenoid system to replace the original blade-type power switch.

My understanding of the dual-solenoid setup (2 per direction; mine only powers IN, so I only need 2, not 4) is that it is a safety precaution in case one of them welds itself shut. When you release the power switch, the winch will still shut off.

If this is true, but my solenoids are the same part number, same rating, see the came current since they're in-line, why wouldn't they both weld shut at almost the same exact time? I mean, isn't that a probability? Or is the minute manufacturing variations between the two exact same part number solenoids enough to statistically prevent them from both locking shut at the same time?

 

[Degnol]

I'm pretty sure that no matter how identical they are, one will give it up before the other. Just make sure you get continuous duty rated solenoids, not starter solenoids.
Warn evidently thinks the same, too

GL

Ed

 

[FF LC FREAK]

See if this thread helps: https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/229717-help-wire-my-winch.html

I just ended up going with one Ford starter solenoid. I keep a second as a back up. Granted, I do very little winching, but so far things have worked well.

Good luck!

 

[Coolerman]

Actually the odds are pretty high that they will not both weld themselves shut. The contacts in each solenoid will wear at different rates and in different patterns due to a number of variables like material density variations, contact shape and smoothness differences and solenoid pull in strength differences.

The welding shut issue usually involves worn contacts that are pitted and burned. Eventually the pits and valleys get so severe that an arc forms on one of the 'peaks' (think MIG welding) when the contacts are almost closed. This welds the contacts together resulting in a rather dangerous situation.

The use of a battery terminal that can be quickly removed (knob or lever to loosen or remove)or a high current manual disconnect is a good idea just in case...

 

[CruisinGA]

There are 4 solenoids in a standard winch control box because this is how many are required to switch two poles. Whether it be a permanent magnet motor (Milemarker) and the (+)/(-) are reversed, or a stator coil motor (Warn) where the field coils are reversed with (+). Some winches (Milemarker) have two "double" solenoids, essentially the same thing.

Each solenoid has to handle the entire current requirement of the motor.

I ran just one Warn solenoid on my Bellview until the lack of an automatic brake put me in a very bad situation and caused me to yank the winch when I got home.

It is easily possible to modify the Bellview to power both directions. Reversible%20Belleview]Bellview Tech, the 8274's daddy - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board

Aside from the lack of an automatic brake, the Bellview is a great winch, very robust construction, easily rebuildable and much faster than anything but an 8274.

I can't think of a reason why two solenoids in parallel would not work, just not necessary.

 

[Coolerman]

The solenoids are in series in the situation above, not parallel. In series in case one of them welds itself shut, the other will open to prevent a run away winch.

 

[CruisinGA]

Missed the part about them being In-line.

Not a bad idea. Had a buddy with a milemarker winch have two solenoids weld shut, created a very dangerous situation for a number of people and burned up a winch motor. Could have broken a lot of junk on the rig as well.

 

[fjwagon]

Things to try: ohming them out...compare to the good ones. Make sure they are not binding. Sometimes just a good cleaning is all they need if they have not been used for a long time. Odds are they should not go out at the same time unless you have another problem elswhere....but don't rule it out. Good Luck.

 

[Poser]

Things to try: ohming them out...compare to the good ones. Make sure they are not binding. Sometimes just a good cleaning is all they need if they have not been used for a long time. Odds are they should not go out at the same time unless you have another problem elswhere....but don't rule it out. Good Luck.

How do you clean a sealed solenoid?

 

[Pin_Head]

The only reason to use 4 solenoids was to make a double pole, double throw (DPDT) switch with them in order to reverse the motor. It is coincidental to the design of a DPDT switch that if one of the contacts siezes that the other can still break the circuit. If they made a single DPDT relay big enough to handle the current, they could have used that too and it would function the same with regard to contacts welding shut.

You only need 1 solenoid to control the Bellview. If you want backup redundancy, keep the blade switch in series with the solenoid.

 

[fjwagon]

Contacts can be cleaned. If it's sealed it may be easier to replaced. But some can be taken apart. We do it all the time. We take circuit breakers apart same goes with relays. You will surprised at some of the stuff repair at work. We have even been able to repair a lamps that gone bad. Yeah I know it seems impossible.

How do you clean a sealed solenoid?

 

[Coolerman]

I have ground the seal off a couple things on the Cruiser to repair them. I did the dimmer switch

https://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series-tech/230731-dimmer-switch-tech.html

and the horn relay. Yeah, cheap replacements are available but I like to KNOW how things work!

 

[fjwagon]

They don't make them like use to. That's why I like the way the built these Land Cruisers. You can pretty much take them arpart and have them running again with minimal parts.