Where have all the rear bumper fabricators gone!?

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thatcabledude said:
Wow. Wtf.
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So when people say we are bitter or our prices are higher.... GO FIGURE! At least 10-15% of my day is sifting through and responding to TRUE JUNK EMAILS very similar to what I posted above. Some may say that's just business..but in the end it cost serious buyers more money.

There are several if not all of us vendors that deal with this daily.

J
 
Having fabricated my own swing arms and can carrier and several other bits and pieces, I can say I honestly understand where vendors get there prices from. When I did my first carrier it took about 6-8 hours to make it everything I wanted. The second time around was about 3 hours because I had all of the templates. Maybe cost me $25 in material, If I sold that carrier for $100 it wouldn't be worth my time.
 
I deal in fabrication all the time. If I figured $5.75 per finished pound of carbon steel, assuming my bumper is about 120 lb, my COST from a fabricator that does millions of dollars a year if work for me, will be $690. Then, I put a reasonable markup on it, I should sell it for $1062, not including freight. I totally get why it's hard to sell this stuff retail to a bunch of whiny assed know it alls that want something for nothing.. none of this includes my original design and engineering time. Realistically probably more like $1500 each for the base model and up from there.

So, yeah.

I'm not against anyone making a profit to stay in business, you just have to take the good with the bad. Most people horribly underestimate their amount of markup they need when selling something to cover normal business expenses AND to make a profit.

The key is to find the place that YOU as a business owner can buy your supplies for less than your competitors.
 
BILT4ME said:
I deal in fabrication all the time. If I figured $5.75 per finished pound of carbon steel, assuming my bumper is about 120 lb, my COST from a fabricator that does millions of dollars a year if work for me, will be $690. Then, I put a reasonable markup on it, I should sell it for $1062, not including freight. I totally get why it's hard to sell this stuff retail to a bunch of whiny assed know it alls that want something for nothing.. none of this includes my original design and engineering time. Realistically probably more like $1500 each for the base model and up from there.

So, yeah.

I'm not against anyone making a profit to stay in business, you just have to take the good with the bad. Most people horribly underestimate their amount of markup they need when selling something to cover normal business expenses AND to make a profit.

The key is to find the place that YOU as a business owner can buy your supplies for less than your competitors.
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I hate group buys for these reasons. While it's true that volume sales are great for recouping development costs, it also undercuts the perceived value of the product. If we all know that if we wait long enough we can buy an $800 roof rack for $600 then many will wait, or push, for the $600 price. Hence a group buy every quarter. It's obnoxious. It's no wonder guys like Shane threw their hands up and dipped out (I wonder how many people screwed that guy using their credit card company). The designer and builder should get their full price! If not for their intellectual and creative faculties the product wouldn't exist at all.

I want everything slee makes. I want everything in the wits end catalog. More than that I want these guys to keep making awesome stuff! Asking for a discount is telling them you place a lower value on their contributions.

I'll never ask for a discount - although I may ask that we ship using my FedEx account.
 
Expertise, lived knowledge, and a dedication to an entire life/worldview doesn't mean s*** anymore.

The larger any group gets the more diluted it becomes.

And then it's just a race to the bottom endemic of most of what happens these days in any area of expertise.

Ironically, Toyota is building an department of people at the Motomachi Plant dedicated to long term expertise and knowledge in the skills of welding, machining, body work and engine building.... by hand.... how ironic.
 
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BILT4ME said:
I deal in fabrication all the time. If I figured $5.75 per finished pound of carbon steel, assuming my bumper is about 120 lb, my COST from a fabricator that does millions of dollars a year if work for me, will be $690. Then, I put a reasonable markup on it, I should sell it for $1062, not including freight. I totally get why it's hard to sell this stuff retail to a bunch of whiny assed know it alls that want something for nothing.. none of this includes my original design and engineering time. Realistically probably more like $1500 each for the base model and up from there.

So, yeah.

I'm not against anyone making a profit to stay in business, you just have to take the good with the bad. Most people horribly underestimate their amount of markup they need when selling something to cover normal business expenses AND to make a profit.

The key is to find the place that YOU as a business owner can buy your supplies for less than your competitors.
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All depends on the volume and what the monster is you're building in the big bad fab world. I've seen it as cheap as 1200$ per finished ton
to as much as 21,000$ per ton.

I used manage and chief inspect on 250-920 million dollar cryogenic gas processing grassroots facilities and the material was NEVER the driving factor on an awarded bid. I once had 32 bids come in on the structural package and the top 3 bids were within 4500.00 of each other on a 23 million bid package. On those 32 bids; material variability was less than 1% across the board for the first 17-20 bids. The driving factor for the remaining bids was all in labor and equipment rental variances, but mainly labor.

In the extremely small world of cruiser armor fabrication the above means nothing to me. It boils down to what I want for my time and I'm pretty much at the mercy of the steel companies around. Now ARB, Kaymar, TJM, BIG BOYS R US etc... yes, the volume and their purchasing power is intense and has to be in a certain margin range to stay competitive with their real competition.

I asked a guy from TJM a few years ago at an expo if my, 4Plus, Iron Pig, Luke, etc.. made a difference in their bottom line... His response..." WHO?"
 
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cruisernomics

beno says all the time niche market. Not a huge market

How many 80s on road?
how many want an offroad bumper?
as vehicle ages and type of owner changes how many would make own bumper instead of paying for a new one
cost of design may have leveled off/gone down as computer programs become more affordable for small guy but materials are expensive.

similar to me looking for work bench. Could buy one for x or build one for y where y equals materials (m) plus time (t) and m is pretty close to the cost of x....... well im lost

but not as many cruiser bumpers will sell where a j**p item will have a much larger potential buying pool


I havent been in the market but does tjm still import into us. I remember a few years ago it may have been rumors they stopped bringing over. I was happy with mine on my Tacoma but that was before people like demello came out with awesome stuff
 
OGBeno said:
Expertise, lived knowledge, and a dedication to an entire life/worldview doesn't mean s*** anymore.

The larger any group gets the more diluted it becomes.

And then it's just a race to the bottom endemic of most of what happens these days in any area of expertise.

Ironically, Toyota is building an department of people at the Motomachi Plant dedicated to long term expertise and knowledge in the skills of welding, machining, body work and engine building.... by hand.
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I'm getting old but I'd damn sure sign up for it.
 
TRAIL TAILOR said:
So when people say we are bitter or our prices are higher.... GO FIGURE! At least 10-15% of my day is sifting through and responding to TRUE JUNK EMAILS very similar to what I posted above. Some may say that's just business..but in the end it cost serious buyers more money.

There are several if not all of us vendors that deal with this daily.

J
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Sadly, this is the exact reason I have a **dang decent** home setup, but refuse to ever make the 2 comments -

"Gee, I wonder why all the fab shops have gone away"
"If you want, I could prob burn that together for you"

Frankly, I'll chase a CG cerification for a boat hull design & do AL welded sleds before I even utter words about building Cruiser crap.

Seems a thankless job, and people never pencil in your power bill, weld machine payments, simple consumables, or shop overhead - I have had plenty of people who are non-trades think it fair to offer me material costs & ~$20/hr.

I always suggest they take the classes, budget their own time & "enjoy learning to build your own projects".

When the local fab shop charges $75/hr for basic MIG & $90/hr TIG, I tell friends just how decent that is, just from a machine & power bill cost.


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Those bumpers from the 100 series guy (who clearly owns a plasma table!) - look promising. Not just the plasma work, but the lines of the bumper corners - looks good!
 
I just dropped retail cash for a slee rear bumper. I save money doing preventive maintenance and doing my own labor. I save cash so I can spend it elsewhere.
 
LINUS said:
Sadly, this is the exact reason I have a **dang decent** home setup, but refuse to ever make the 2 comments -

"Gee, I wonder why all the fab shops have gone away"
"If you want, I could prob burn that together for you"

Frankly, I'll chase a CG cerification for a boat hull design & do AL welded sleds before I even utter words about building Cruiser crap.

Seems a thankless job, and people never pencil in your power bill, weld machine payments, simple consumables, or shop overhead - I have had plenty of people who are non-trades think it fair to offer me material costs & ~$20/hr.

I always suggest they take the classes, budget their own time & "enjoy learning to build your own projects".

When the local fab shop charges $75/hr for basic MIG & $90/hr TIG, I tell friends just how decent that is, just from a machine & power bill cost.


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Those bumpers from the 100 series guy (who clearly owns a plasma table!) - look promising. Not just the plasma work, but the lines of the bumper corners - looks good!
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I keep a eye on shop costs all over the country. I still write and test weld procedures for oil and gas companies. Fabrication is from 35$ to 270$ an hour right now at the places I deal with. Right before I sold my ASME vessel shop in Texas 1998. I was paying my shop hands 16-21$ an hour, single hand welders up to 40$ and rig welders 130$.

I was was in Beijing for 21 months building an add on to a hydrogen cyanide facility and for the first 8-10 weeks all we built was "AMERICAN BBQ PIT... SMOKE SMOKE....." When I came back I had some people over and a guy asked what I'd charge to make him one like mine.... It was all I could do not to kick the crap out of him... NO AMOUNT OF MONEY IS WHAT I FINALLY MUMBLED...

I farm all my plasma and laser cutting out. Cost of machine after 4 years isn't even at a break even for me yet. Let someone else deal with the maintenance and people problems...


BUT, to get this thread back on track.... If I couldn't build my own armor, I would buy SLEE! No questions asked and no other option for me.

J
 
4x4 Labs saved my 80 when someone ran a red light.
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To the OP,

I think you should look in to BOI a bit more, the wing profile matches up very well in person. Mike's service was absolutely top notch! And he offers a bunch of custom swing out options if you decide to go that route. I did not want to cut anything so I went with the standard and not the High Clearance that requires cutting like the Labs does. I'v had mine for about 5 years now and no complaints, the gas struts are awesome, I do re adjust the latches from time to time but you would have to do that with any of the bumpers that use the same latches.
 
ooohh...kinda forgot about the Slee. That is one sexy beast!
 
Let me beat a dead horse for a brief moment.:deadhorse:

In my 37 year-long career my philosophy always was a sale without a profit is a gift. I did not and could not run a gift shop and retain my job.

People who think it is OK for them to make money but not anyone else to do so pisses me off to this day.
 
cruiserdan said:
Let me beat a dead horse for a brief moment.:deadhorse:

In my 37 year-long career my philosophy always was a sale without a profit is a gift. I did not and could not run a gift shop and retain my job.

People who think it is OK for them to make money but not anyone else to do so pisses me off to this day.
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Hear, Hear!
 
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