Video of axle wrap/wheel hop. (1 Viewer)

[toyotaboy80]

This isnt my standard M.O behind the wheel, but it was eye opening to the lack of functionality in my current set up.

Open diffs, pretty violent wheel hop front and rear.

I was in 4wd low range.
5.29 gears
35" tires at 27psi front 25 psi rear
Chev 63 rears with bilstein 5100's mounted at a 45°. 2" block that doesnt sit on the perch very good
Front is well used Marlin lift springs that sit more or less flat these days, bilstein 5100 mounted 5° inboard
All new spring bushings, shock bushings, wheel bearings, u bolts, etc. Everything tight.

A little more axle stability and ability to put the power down and spin under load would be desirable.

What should I do to my junk to make it not totally useless in a low traction environment?

 

[pappy]

Lockers and chains.

 

[toyotaboy80]

I do have lockers. Havent used them tho. Spent more time building the truck than wheeling it, so I have only been out for some shake down runs.

Does that just put more traction down to keep the axle in a wrapped state and take the hop out?

I knew leafs were inherently wet noodles, but I didnt think they were this bad.

 

[gnob]

This vid is kind of not fair imo.
Leaf springs are going to have wrap, period. Note Toyota has a wrap bar up front on SA vehicles from the factory.
Other than adding an anti wrap you can play with spring rate to try and tame it.
Steeper shackle and shock angles help.
Those soft MC springs aren't really helping you either. It didn't look to me like the rear was as bad.
I guess you were doing this for display here, but your psi should be much lower in snow/ice.

 

[pappy]

I guess you were doing this for display here, but your psi should be much lower in snow/ice.

This. As in ~10psi low. Higher for chained tires.

 

[toyotaboy80]

This vid is kind of not fair imo.
Leaf springs are going to have wrap, period. Note Toyota has a wrap bar up front on SA vehicles from the factory.
Other than adding an anti wrap you can play with spring rate to try and tame it.
Steeper shackle and shock angles help.
Those soft MC springs aren't really helping you either. It didn't look to me like the rear was as bad.
I guess you were doing this for display here, but your psi should be much lower in snow/ice.

Yeah the video is on the extreme end of things. Although I have been in 2wd low range and cruising along in 2nd gear on a broken in snowy trail and hit an incline and it breaks loose a bit so I chop the throttle and it ends up hopping... I consider that to be unacceptable. Not sure what thats all about. Click it into 4wd and it pulled it smooth no problem no spinning.

If the main event of the day was breaking trail I would be at 10psi or less and locked up. Or better yet I'd run my beadlocks at 1psi. As for the video I was just getting on it for no real reason in virgin snow and was surprised by the amount of hop that was happening.

As for "'fair" I dont really know what is considered fair for leaf springs.... I realize theyre going to wrap, but what is acceptable.

Im in the early stages of reading about anti wrap methods. Also in the early stages of offroad driving experience so I dont fully know what to expect.

My rear leafs are mostly unbanded. That may not be helping much. I'm thinking about putting in a 4th leaf and a half leaf ontop of the main leaf. Altho I dont want it to ride like a hay wagon, lol

The fronts are well used. Not sure if theyre considered wore out. They do ride nice but kinda look flat and wavy. When hanging free they look like they have nice free arch. Thinking about adding a couple leafs and a half leaf on top. But I wonder if straight up new leafs are in order.

 

[gnob]

Those fronts are clapped dude. I would also go to a bit shorter shackle.
I recently swapped for my old clapped out RUF setup to some springs from Skys Offroad. Yuge improvements.

 

[toyotaboy80]

Yeah they do look pretty borderline on the shackle side of the spring. Im sure bumpstops wouldnt have hurt when the previous owner installed them, lol

What would a shorter shackle do?

What is the stock distance between frame shackle mount and front hanger mount supposed to be on factory solid axle trucks? Id like to verify if the front hanger is moved forward from stock or not.

 

[toyotaboy80]

Just pulled a tape, mine is 45" center to center frame shackle point to hanger. Its an '85 frame with an aftermarket front hangar.

 

[gnob]

Math is ~43.9

 

[toyotaboy80]

Thanks for the specs.

First thing I noticed about sky springs is they mention a 3" axle push. Can you post some details on your set up?

Does trail gear still have inferior springs? (Circa 10-15 year old internet talk)

Is national/deaver still making off the shelf springs for these trucks?

 

[gnob]

Ill get some real measurements tomorrow but they are very close to RUF. Roughly 20.5-21 and 27-28.
When I mounted these i noticed they are slightly longer.

 

[aztoyman]

I've run 3" TG front springs on my SAS. The first set lasted I think 7 years with daily driving and hard wheeling before they sagged out. I never ran anything else up front so I can't make a comparison to other brands. I have the 4" ones on now. So far so good. We put used All Pro rear springs on my son's truck and they worked well for many years. He sold it so I don't know how long they eventually went.

I finally made up a set of 63" Chevy rear springs we talked about in another thread. Great ride and very flexy off road. I got axle wrap so I made the anti wrap bar. It works well and seems to make the rear really hook up. I wasn't willing to give up my ride and flex by adding leaves to try to minimize the axle wrap. I also think the axle wrap/wheel hop was what was tearing out my T-case mounts.

Sorry I just realized it's the front you're wanting to fix. I didn't have an axle wrap issue in front with either set of TG springs. My son's 91 didn't either. Also with 35's, locked and 5.29's.

 

[WILLD420]

Couple things.

Spring wrap happens to any leaf spring, doesn't matter how thick, only how much leverage you have and how much torque you transmit. There is no way, short of an anti-wrap bar to stop it. Even coil and linked rigs get wheelhop from axle wrap. Wheel hop in reverse is almost always worse because most springs are stiffer on the front half that the rear half. They are better at resisting upward movement, then downward movement. The longer portion in the back, is not stiff enough to resist the torque input. What you have is not that bad, considering you were hammering it. I'd rather have soft springs with a traction bar than stiff springs without one.

If you are new to wheeling and to snow wheeling, a few tips, although I'm just an amateur compared to many.

1st. There are no set rules in snow. What works at 6 a.m. may not work at 6:15 and what works at noon probably won't work at 8 p.m. or 2 a.m.

2nd, normally, wheelspin is not your friend unless you have to do it. Crawling with super baggy tires is much preferable with just enough momentum to keep moving . As soon as a tire starts to spin, it melts the snow and lubricates the traction surface. Once that happens, things usually go downhill unless it's hard enough to keep your axles out of the snow. There is almost never such a thing as too low of pressure in snow, unless you are side-hilling or the tire is falling off the rim or folding over on itself. Think finesse, unless you have to bash it, then, big tires and big hp is your friend, snow drifts are often an example of this, where they are rock hard and you have to hammer through them. Lightweight snow chains can really help with the crawling thing in snow like what you were in.

3rd. Lockers aren't always best. Side-hills and turning often cause problems for locked or spooled rigs.

4th. Light weight will get you a long way. Leave the full-sized, 8,000 lb rigs at home if the snow is deeper than a couple feet. I'm a fullsize truck guy but I've learned that a Toyota cut down, with an light weight, upgraded powerplant, gearing, lockers and big tires will make most big trucks look foolish. Cherokees, Trackers, Samurai's with more power and LS or aluminum Big Block powered toys can drive across things you cannot walk on.

5th. Automatics suck power, create heat and have their issues but they can idle away from a dead stop without spinning a tire. Stick shifts save power, don't overheat and give you uber-control but a grabby clutch or dumping the clutch overwhelms the traction you have a lot of the time and does nothing to get you further, but it does look cool and it can be a lot of fun in the right snow conditions.

6th. Never go alone, or without a backup plan. Tree wells, hidden creeks or rivers, flooded roads under deep snow, all happen. Bad things can happen in the blink of an eye. There are several youtube videos of guys trying to cross a drift and sliding down the side of a ravine or a whole mountain. Even happens to snowcats, so have a plan.

BTW, nice truck.

 

[gnob]

So actual measurements are 21/27.
My shackle angle, my pins are 45 3/8.
Shackle is 4"

 

[toyotaboy80]

@WILLD420 thanks for the driving advice. I'll keep that in mind! That bodes well with my goal of to drive with least amount of sh#t and abuse and make it home at the end of the day.

I also was thinking about how the hop was worse in reverse as per the video... it makes sense. Id like to keep it soft and rely on bump stops more than spring rate(to an extent).

@aztoyman I am trying to correct front and rear...but front is worse for sure. I was reading about potential binding issues with a triangulated anti wrap bar potentially ruining leaf springs. Does the bar stay out of bind at compression and droop?

@gnob thanks for the measurments. I like that shackle angle...how long is the shackle? How much drop on the front hanger? The 3rd leaf in that pack looks like it supports the top 2 leafs quite well. If I was going to add a leaf to mine thats where I would start. I definitely think it should of had that there stock...might have supported the back half of the pack better throughout its life.

At the end of the day I'd like to know I can get on the skinny pedal and not have a u joint failure or wheel hop my fillings out... might just be drivers finesse/skill/style and or winching where necessary I suppose. I suppose its not meant to be a hammer down competition buggy, lol

 

[aztoyman]

I don't have any binding. I have the front of the bar attached to a small shackle with a stout rod end from Ruff Stuff. The shackle allows it to move fore and aft and the rod end allows rotation.

I was considering fabricating a front anti wrap bar. I looked at a bunch of different types on Pirate and just decided there was too many things in the way up front. I really didn't have a noticeable problem up front either.

 

[gnob]

My shackle is 4" hole to hole. Imo the shorter shackles add to suspension stability. Poly bushings help.