Toyota 3B Engine failure and knocking noise (1 Viewer)

[bumi1048]

Fairly novice at these kinds of things. Recently got my hands on an 83 BJ land cruiser (Toyotas 3B Diesel engine). Got it for a good price so i new it’d come with baggage. Test drive was uneventful so I said why not and was buying from a mechanic. Been driving it around as my daily for the past month with no serious issue. Well, yesterday I get the ominous engine knocking noise and despaired over what this could mean until about a minute later, complete engine failure. It was not running hot and oil was not low (though looks like it’s been cycled through the engine a few too many times). Also, tried starting it this morning and black exhaust came out. I understand this could mean an issue with the internal combustion components but is there anything I can do diagnostically to rule out “easy” fixes before I jump to getting engine rebuilt/ replaced or scrap the whole thing? Thanks in advance

 

[Eurasiaoverland]

Can you describe what you mean by 'complete engine failure'?

If it started and shot out black smoke the next morning, I assume it starts and runs?

Black oil is normal for a diesel, so oil looks fine.

Black smoke is incompletly burned fuel, when does it put this smoke out? Presumably not at idle.

That turbocharger does not belong there, so unless you have documentation, it's anybodys guess how it's set up, which can have a dramatic effect on engine life.

A video of it running would be useful.

 

[bumi1048]

Can you describe what you mean by 'complete engine failure'?

If it started and shot out black smoke the next morning, I assume it starts and runs?

Black oil is normal for a diesel, so oil looks fine.

Black smoke is incompletly burned fuel, when does it put this smoke out? Presumably not at idle.

That turbocharger does not belong there, so unless you have documentation, it's anybodys guess how it's set up, which can have a dramatic effect on engine life.

A video of it running would be useful.

Thank you for the reply.

Okay I’ve attached videos of engine running and exhaust (which seems more excessive and white than when engine was running normally). The black exhaust was what came out yesterday when I started it and continued at idle but it has not repeated for today.
I guess by complete engine failure I mean loss of power; engine runs but there is a knocking noise and the whole car shakes.

I bought the truck from a mechanic who had a rotating fleet of different gen cruisers and various drift cars. He mentioned he placed the turbo himself and said that the blue silicone coupling should eventually be replaced and that there was no limiter, so keep boost 12 and below just by eying the gauge. But that was all that was mentioned.

Thanks again for the reply. I’ve come to love the hunk of metal and I’m at a loss of what to do with it. Was initially hoping to get to a trusted diesel mechanic to look it over before this happened. I’m trying to get a grasp of what is wrong to determine if I should just scrap it or to take to someone to fix/ rebuild.

Engine running:


Exhaust:

 

[4Ruster]

First thing first. A stick injector will sound just like rod knock. Take a video for us and crack each injector while it's running to narrow down the cylinder. These engines don't just fail out of nowhere.

 

[4Ruster]

 

[GTSSportCoupe]

Hopefully it is just a problem with the injection system as mentioned.

As far as worse things that can happen, the most common are: dropped pre-cup or broken crankshaft. These problems are more common specifically to turboed 3Bs.

 

[bumi1048]

First thing first. A stick injector will sound just like rod knock. Take a video for us and crack each injector while it's running to narrow down the cylinder. These engines don't just fail out of nowhere.

I would but engine quits before I can even get a chance to loosen them. What I be looking for when I crack them anyways?

 

[bumi1048]

Also I saw some white smoke coming from the left side of the engine (facing it). looks like turbo manifold cracked (see pics). Would it cause these symptoms (misfire, knocking noise, stalling)?

 

[duncanrm]

That cracked manifold would result in a VERY loud clicking/clacking sound..

 

[duncanrm]

That cracked manifold would result in a VERY loud clicking/clacking sound. I would still expect the engine to run fine though. A video would assist.

 

[Eurasiaoverland]

Thank you for the reply.

Okay I’ve attached videos of engine running and exhaust (which seems more excessive and white than when engine was running normally). The black exhaust was what came out yesterday when I started it and continued at idle but it has not repeated for today.
I guess by complete engine failure I mean loss of power; engine runs but there is a knocking noise and the whole car shakes.

I bought the truck from a mechanic who had a rotating fleet of different gen cruisers and various drift cars. He mentioned he placed the turbo himself and said that the blue silicone coupling should eventually be replaced and that there was no limiter, so keep boost 12 and below just by eying the gauge. But that was all that was mentioned.

Thanks again for the reply. I’ve come to love the hunk of metal and I’m at a loss of what to do with it. Was initially hoping to get to a trusted diesel mechanic to look it over before this happened. I’m trying to get a grasp of what is wrong to determine if I should just scrap it or to take to someone to fix/ rebuild.

Engine running:


Exhaust:

Welcome to MUD

From the video, I don't hear any mechanical knocking sound, though it might only appear when revving it, or when the engine gets hot. It looks very much like it is running on 3 or maybe even 2 cylinders. With a diesel engine, almost any running problem will be down to fuel supply or compression. One note though - these old diesel engines need glowplugs to start and fire on all cylinders if the temperature is below about 10 or 15º C (50 to 60º F) so if that is a stone cold engine on a cold morning the rough running could just be failed glowplugs (a common failure and easy fix). What I write below assumes that the engine runs like that when wam/hot.

The trick with cracking injectors is to loosen the injector line nuts one at a time. If the engine sound changes then that cylinder is firing. If there is no difference to the running sound, then the cylinder is not firing (correctly). If you can get a spanner on that rattling engine then give it a try - if you loosen a nut to a good cylinder I would, (in case it is running on only 2 cylinders), expect the engine to stop. You can try increasing the idle revs with the hand throttle (choke symbol) and see if the engine smoothens out a bit.

White smoke is totally unburned diesel, meaning there is low or no compression in one or more cylinder, or the diesel is being injected at the wrong time from a failed injector. If this happened suddenly it could also be a cracked / holed piston. Can you pull the ventilation pipe off the valve cover (it may feed back to the air intake before the turbo, but if probably hanging down at the bottom of the engine) and see if its puffing out white oil/fuel vapours? A little is normal, but it should not come out like the exhaust.

Your cracked manifold looks like the result of a shoddy job welding the exhaust manifold (MIG welding cast iron...), it will make a noise but as Duncan said is not going to be the source of your running issues.

 

[duncanrm]

.

 

[bj70bc]

pull the oil pan and look for a busted crankshaft would be my first move, this will tell you if its a write off or not

that 'turbo install' looks like shiit

Mechanics are the worst

 

[bumi1048]

Welcome to MUD

From the video, I don't hear any mechanical knocking sound, though it might only appear when revving it, or when the engine gets hot. It looks very much like it is running on 3 or maybe even 2 cylinders. With a diesel engine, almost any running problem will be down to fuel supply or compression. One note though - these old diesel engines need glowplugs to start and fire on all cylinders if the temperature is below about 10 or 15º C (50 to 60º F) so if that is a stone cold engine on a cold morning the rough running could just be failed glowplugs (a common failure and easy fix). What I write below assumes that the engine runs like that when wam/hot.

The trick with cracking injectors is to loosen the injector line nuts one at a time. If the engine sound changes then that cylinder is firing. If there is no difference to the running sound, then the cylinder is not firing (correctly). If you can get a spanner on that rattling engine then give it a try - if you loosen a nut to a good cylinder I would, (in case it is running on only 2 cylinders), expect the engine to stop. You can try increasing the idle revs with the hand throttle (choke symbol) and see if the engine smoothens out a bit.

White smoke is totally unburned diesel, meaning there is low or no compression in one or more cylinder, or the diesel is being injected at the wrong time from a failed injector. If this happened suddenly it could also be a cracked / holed piston. Can you pull the ventilation pipe off the valve cover (it may feed back to the air intake before the turbo, but if probably hanging down at the bottom of the engine) and see if its puffing out white oil/fuel vapours? A little is normal, but it should not come out like the exhaust.

Your cracked manifold looks like the result of a shoddy job welding the exhaust manifold (MIG welding cast iron...), it will make a noise but as Duncan said is not going to be the source of your running issues.

Wow thank you for the thorough reply. I am working today but will keep you updated with what I find.

 

[bumi1048]

Welcome to MUD

From the video, I don't hear any mechanical knocking sound, though it might only appear when revving it, or when the engine gets hot. It looks very much like it is running on 3 or maybe even 2 cylinders. With a diesel engine, almost any running problem will be down to fuel supply or compression. One note though - these old diesel engines need glowplugs to start and fire on all cylinders if the temperature is below about 10 or 15º C (50 to 60º F) so if that is a stone cold engine on a cold morning the rough running could just be failed glowplugs (a common failure and easy fix). What I write below assumes that the engine runs like that when wam/hot.

The trick with cracking injectors is to loosen the injector line nuts one at a time. If the engine sound changes then that cylinder is firing. If there is no difference to the running sound, then the cylinder is not firing (correctly). If you can get a spanner on that rattling engine then give it a try - if you loosen a nut to a good cylinder I would, (in case it is running on only 2 cylinders), expect the engine to stop. You can try increasing the idle revs with the hand throttle (choke symbol) and see if the engine smoothens out a bit.

White smoke is totally unburned diesel, meaning there is low or no compression in one or more cylinder, or the diesel is being injected at the wrong time from a failed injector. If this happened suddenly it could also be a cracked / holed piston. Can you pull the ventilation pipe off the valve cover (it may feed back to the air intake before the turbo, but if probably hanging down at the bottom of the engine) and see if its puffing out white oil/fuel vapours? A little is normal, but it should not come out like the exhaust.

Your cracked manifold looks like the result of a shoddy job welding the exhaust manifold (MIG welding cast iron...), it will make a noise but as Duncan said is not going to be the source of your running issues.

Hi, I’ve got an update.

So I went through and loosened each bolt on the injectors one at a time. If we are numbering, 1-4 from front to back, then there was no “change” for 3 & 4, and “change” for 1 & 2. When 1 or 2 were loosened, the engine would quit or not start. When 3 or 4 where loosened, the engine would start up and cycle in the same manner as before. I repeated this a few times and got the same results.
However, I will say, after the first time running through, diesel started spewing from the third one even after retightening, coming from the inner ring of the nut (see video). I tried both tightening and loosening the nut but no change. So on the repeated times the engine was actually running the same with both injector bolt 3 & 4 loosened and when just 3 was loosened. I wonder if I revealed the problem or screwed something up (always a possibility).

Also, if you look at the video, I took the ventilation pipe I think you were pointing me to off and there was no considerable white smoke I could make out, only coming from the exhaust still.

Do I need to replace an injector?


my next step will be to remove the oil pan and check out the crankshaft as bj70bc mentioned, but I wanted to get an opinion on what I found above first.

 

[4Ruster]

that looks to me like 100% a fuel injection issue

 

[4Ruster]

pull the injectors and get them pop tested. I bet 20 bucks 3 and 4 are stuck wide open.

any machine shop that can work on 12 valve cummins can test/rebuild your injectors.

 

[4Ruster]

Exhaust:

That white smoke is the unburnt fuel from the faulty injectors getting partially burnt and shot out the tailpipe nearly raw still.

 

[Eurasiaoverland]

Hi, I’ve got an update.

So I went through and loosened each bolt on the injectors one at a time. If we are numbering, 1-4 from front to back, then there was no “change” for 3 & 4, and “change” for 1 & 2. When 1 or 2 were loosened, the engine would quit or not start. When 3 or 4 where loosened, the engine would start up and cycle in the same manner as before. I repeated this a few times and got the same results.
However, I will say, after the first time running through, diesel started spewing from the third one even after retightening, coming from the inner ring of the nut (see video). I tried both tightening and loosening the nut but no change. So on the repeated times the engine was actually running the same with both injector bolt 3 & 4 loosened and when just 3 was loosened. I wonder if I revealed the problem or screwed something up (always a possibility).

Also, if you look at the video, I took the ventilation pipe I think you were pointing me to off and there was no considerable white smoke I could make out, only coming from the exhaust still.

Do I need to replace an injector?


my next step will be to remove the oil pan and check out the crankshaft as bj70bc mentioned, but I wanted to get an opinion on what I found above first.

Thanks for posting your results. So it looks like cylinders 1 and 2 are firing but 3 and 4 may not be. But cylinder 3 is clearly still getting fuel. Was there fuel at cylinder 4? I assume your 3B is from Canada and has an in-line pump - I have no experience with these, but in general it's very rare for injection pumps to be problematic. Although I have my doubts that two adjacent injectors suddenly went bad, it's easy to take them out and get them checked.

I have no experience of turbocharged 3Bs and am more familiar with the later non-Landcruiser B engines, so I defer to those who have more direct knowledge - perhaps broken crankshafts are some peculiarity of turbocharged 3Bs. But when Toyota turned the 3B into the turbocharged 13B-T, they reinforced the pistons, con-rods and cylinder heads (by way of being direct injection, they never turbocharged an indirect injection B engine like the 3B). The one thing they left alone was the cranshaft (late 1984 and on 3Bs and 13B-Ts have the same crankshaft). So it would seem surprising if 3Bs had a weakness for breaking cranks when turbocharged. However, empirical evidence may contradict this. There was one. let's say 'famous' turbo 3B rebuild on this site which appeared to be very well executed but was underlain by some very questionable post-mortem and engine building practices. That ended, if I remember correctly, in a broken crankshaft, and that may be fresh in people's minds.

Pulling the sump pan off is not a fun job with the engine in place, and it will really only tell you if the crank has snapped or if there is a smashed piston. Taking the cylinder head off is a more conventional alternative. It's a bit more work but will show you the valvetrain, pistons and, by turning the engine over with a bar or tapping the piston crowns with a hammer hamdle, whether all the pistons are connected to the crank. It's your choice though.

EO

 

[FJBen]

Thanks for posting your results. So it looks like cylinders 1 and 2 are firing but 3 and 4 may not be. But cylinder 3 is clearly still getting fuel. Was there fuel at cylinder 4? I assume your 3B is from Canada and has an in-line pump - I have no experience with these, but in general it's very rare for injection pumps to be problematic. Although I have my doubts that two adjacent injectors suddenly went bad, it's easy to take them out and get them checked.

I have no experience of turbocharged 3Bs and am more familiar with the later non-Landcruiser B engines, so I defer to those who have more direct knowledge - perhaps broken crankshafts are some peculiarity of turbocharged 3Bs. But when Toyota turned the 3B into the turbocharged 13B-T, they reinforced the pistons, con-rods and cylinder heads (by way of being direct injection, they never turbocharged an indirect injection B engine like the 3B). The one thing they left alone was the cranshaft (late 1984 and on 3Bs and 13B-Ts have the same crankshaft). So it would seem surprising if 3Bs had a weakness for breaking cranks when turbocharged. However, empirical evidence may contradict this. There was one. let's say 'famous' turbo 3B rebuild on this site which appeared to be very well executed but was underlain by some very questionable post-mortem and engine building practices. That ended, if I remember correctly, in a broken crankshaft, and that may be fresh in people's minds.

Pulling the sump pan off is not a fun job with the engine in place, and it will really only tell you if the crank has snapped or if there is a smashed piston. Taking the cylinder head off is a more conventional alternative. It's a bit more work but will show you the valvetrain, pistons and, by turning the engine over with a bar or tapping the piston crowns with a hammer hamdle, whether all the pistons are connected to the crank. It's your choice though.

EO

The weakness when 3Bs are turbocharged is due to the fact it’s an IDI engine, higher compression, upped fuel, possibly advanced timing. Greater peak pressures and higher forces on everything.