Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (3 Viewers)

[linuxgod]

So how would that work with a flatbed trailer. Say I towing a 20' flatbed that weighed about 2000 lbs, but was rated with a GVWR of 14K lbs.
How can they ticket on unknown intent? I know CA varies in their regulations and can pull you over even without a reason. But how would that go in court. "Your honor, it is possible he may have been planning on towing 14K lbs but is only rated for 8500 lbs."

I will have to look into that. We do travel into CA about once or twice a year.

I don't think that would fly in the US. Virtually every long haul trucker pulls trailers that can far exceed the weight ratings of both their vehicle and the roadways. But everything is based on actual weight, not potential.

FYI the rules for non-commercial vehicles are different than commercial, or so I understand. Or at least they're enforced differently. A commercial driver should never be overweight, and there are weight stations and penalties applied to them. For passenger vehicles it's less clear cut on what GVWR means and how it's enforced. (you'd think it would be just as clear, but go read trailer towing forums and stories).

That said police can ticket you for anything. Whether or not it'll hold up in court depends on the judge and lawyers. In the US I don't believe it's illegal to tow a trailer with a higher GVWR than your vehicle is certified, provided you are actually under the GVWR of the trailer, GVWR of the tow vehicle, and GCWR of the combination. There are also per-axle ratings that apply to both the vehicle and the trailer.

The LC has an 8100-8500# tow rating depending on the model year. LX is 7000-8xxx# depending on the year. Manual states to use a trailer brake controller with anything over 1000#.

Even if you are under GVWR, GCWR, GAWR I'm sure an officer could find a reason to ticket you such as "failure to maintain control of a vehicle" if you're in an accident. If you're over and in an accidently which isn't your fault I don't believe it means you're automatically guilty in a US court of law, but it does make the opposing side's lawyer's job that much easier. i.e. if you rear axle was 100# overweight but your front was 200# under and your total GVWR and GCWR were under I think most lawyers would get "full fault" tossed out but you might end up with partial fault in some states.

 

[linuxgod]

BTW...

We already had a 24', 5000# trailer when we purchased the LC. I towed one year, then we sold and bought a 25', 6000# trailer. I could tell the difference in weight when accelerating, braking, etc. This was when my vehicle was still stock. I know there are people here will trailers that are 7000#, 8000#, or more. Personally I would not go more than 7000# and 26-27'. Even then I feel like my size is near the max of the sweet spot for larger trailers:

• When my tanks are full of water or waste in them I can absolutely feel the impact when braking or accelerating. In an emergency maneuver the sloshing would also absolutely have some impact.
• Braking in general increases quite a bit, especially when heading downhill, even with the trailer brakes set very aggressive. I once had the trailer brake controller fail on me (trailer plug wasn't fully inserted I think, or a pin wasn't lining up and contacting right) and braking from 65 to a stop light in a town while coming down a hill took a LOT longer than I would have liked (I think this was coming down into Montrose on the way to an LCDC). It felt like stopping a train.
• I've had two PCS braking incidents in the LC and both times the trailer braked straight, but it's unnerving and more weight is not the answer.
• You really need to have your WD setup solid, good anti-sway, correct tongue weight, etc. Weight distribution of your crap inside the trailer makes a huge difference too... In my case 6000# near the axle (full tanks) handles significantly differently than 6000# spread out (empty tanks but bikes, cooler, firewood, etc split between the front area near the tongue and rear. by the bumper).

I could go on but I'll stop here.

(Edit: when I say 24' or 25' that's ball to bumper, the actual trailer boxes were 20' and 21' respectively. I wouldn't go more than 26-27' end-to-end, which is a box of maybe 22-23' in most cases)

 

[linuxgod]

@Ratchey - I looked at a 2020 (or was it 2019?) Outdoors 21RD Creekside about 1.5 months ago. In the fairly new and supposedly "barely used and well maintained" trailer I had found the following:

⁃ Everything needs to be resealed; butyl and sealant cracking and peeling everywhere
⁃ Rear driver side tire has excessive interior wear; axle likely misaligned
⁃ Rubber bushings completely destroyed on all four shocks; immediate replacement needed
⁃ Suspicious dirt/grease on MORyde CRE 3000 suspension components; might need replacement
⁃ A few cabinetry screws loose in the interior, toilet, exterior storage area
⁃ Drawers poorly built: stapled together
⁃ At least two drawers have very crookedly installed slides; function fine
⁃ Small piece of trim missing on back panel of dinette
⁃ Drawers, cabinets, fridge, everything interior is filthy; stove is filthy; fans are filthy
⁃ Undercarriage is covered with OEM corrugated plastic - some bolts have torn through, some other scratches/tears to it

After talking to the local dealer re: re-sealing everything, talking to the local tire shop re: replacing all 5 tires (due to age), talking to the local trailer axle shop (re: axle and suspension), I was looking at a minimum of $5k CAD in repairs just to get it road worthy and weathertight. Seller wasn't willing to budge on the price so I passed on it.

Just FYI. My impression was that the trailers are decently built, but far from "great." The bottom undercarriage covering is no different from my (way cheaper) Winnebago, and I strongly question their "4 season" advertising. I'd say 3 seasons without worry, and maybe 3.5 if you're smart and careful about it. Interior cabinetry built in much the same way as typical Indiana-made trailers. The custom frame was nice, as were the huge water tanks - that's a big plus.

Overall there were a lot of things that gave me pause on the question of value (given the premium price tag). If you're in the price range for a new one of these, consider a 3-4 year old BigFoot, which will be significantly better built, and should be in the similar price range.

My Lance 2185 is 10 years old now (it's a 2015 model manufactured Feb 2014, and we bought it used in 2018 IIRC). It's a house on wheels being subject to hurricane winds and constant earthquakes, so you do need to occasionally retighten cabinet screws and such. I've had some problems with the standard camping appliances (Norcold fridge door hinge broke, faucet handle snapped off on me, tongue jack failed, for instance) and a couple annoying design issues (note to self: don't forget again to bungee that cabinet door closed where we keep all the canned goods). But overall I've had no major issues with it and would highly recommend one over pretty much anything manufactured by Thor or the other big manufacturers in Indiana. I do keep up on maintenance given that we pull it 4000-5000 miles every year on average.

 

[TeCKis300]

Looks like the 2009 LX570 per the manual has a gross combined weight not to exceed 14550 lbs (see snapshot below). Assuming loaded vehicle (LX570 + fuel + passengers + cargo) is around 6500 lbs that leaves ~8050 lbs for the trailer. At 6350 lbs empty there seems a good amount for water, clothes, food, kitchen stuff etc.

There are articles discussing the legality of going over GCWR and being an issue during an accident. That makes sense and is probably wise to avoid.

The question then seems; When the trailer stated GVWR (on the label) + loaded vehicle is over the vehicle manual stated GCWR, are you illegal? Or does the actual trailer weight (empty + payload) matters? Reading discussions and the SAE J2807 it seems the later as GVW gets stated in relation to GCWR, with the R dropped off.

I am not a lawyer however and maybe this should be part of your go/no go decision. Perhaps weighing your combination loaded up (say 5 adult males) and a bunch of stuff in the trailer and take time stamped pictures of the same while on the weight bridge can be way to show you are under 14550lbs. This is a stretch and may not carry any weight in court.

View attachment 3578681

I have an Airstream 27FB that is 28'. Which is about what most 23' trailers are in length as AS always measures ball to bumper. My trailer has a GVWR of 7,600.

Here's an example of how this play out. Even with my 7.6k GVWR trailer, the trailer is over that and I don't feel like I carry the kitchen sink with me. I'm also over that on a number of things including GCWR. Scales are revealing and it's very common in the RV industry for RVs/Trailers to exceed what is spec'd. I can't imagine a trailer that is over 2k heavier than mine on a 200-series.

Scaled weight, fully wet, 6 passengers:
Steer Axle: 3,120 lbs (Front GAWR 3,595lbs)
Rear Axle: 5,460 lbs (Rear GAWR 4,300lbs)
LX Gross: 8,580 lbs (GVWR 7,385lbs)
Payload: ~2,200 lbs (Rated 1,411 lbs)
Trailer axles: 7,040 lbs (Trailer GAWR 7,600 lbs)
Tongue: ~1,200 lbs (Rated 850 lbs)
Trailer Gross: ~8,250 lbs (GVWR 7,600 lbs, LX570 rated 8,500 lbs, *2009)
GCWR: 15,620 lbs (GCWR 14,920)

I'd encourage you to look at some forums for scaled weights of the Outdoors RV 23DBS. I'd bet it's over 7k dry. With tongue over 1200lbs. Not trying to scare you but that's the common reality of how these things are.

 

[skrypj]

Just curious, not trying to be a smart ass, where does it say on the 200 here in the US that 8000lbs is the GVWR for a trailer behind the vehicle?

Otherwise 23ft body is quite common behind a SUV.

Also empty vehicle weight at 5800 to 6000 lbs is another 400 to 600lbs over for example the F150. I know the longer wheel base there helps to tow longer trailers, still the 200 and brakes of the same are quite up to it. Also tow hook to rear axle distance is quite favorable.

TBH, both my stock GX460 and my LX570 towed my 5500 GVWR trailer better than my supercrew, 6.5' bed max tow F150 with a 157" wheelbase. The F150 also weighed 6140 lbs empty and 6400 lbs with the topper on it. The 5 link rear suspension with sway bar on the GX/LX is just better, especially on twisty mountain roads. The shorter wheelbase does mean the GX/LX tend to wander a bit more but both handled cross winds well.

Once I added a rear hellwig swaybar and Bilstein 5100's to the F150 is was as good or maybe a bit better than the GX/LX, but the fact that the new ones are rated to tow 14000+ lbs without those items and at a ~5000 lb curb weight is a little insane to me.

 

[Ratchey]

I have an Airstream 27FB that is 28'. Which is about what most 23' trailers are in length as AS always measures ball to bumper. My trailer has a GVWR of 7,600.

Here's an example of how this play out. Even with my 7.6k GVWR trailer, the trailer is over that and I don't feel like I carry the kitchen sink with me. I'm also over that on a number of things including GCWR. Scales are revealing and it's very common in the RV industry for RVs/Trailers to exceed what is spec'd. I can't imagine a trailer that is over 2k heavier than mine on a 200-series.

Scaled weight, fully wet, 6 passengers:
Steer Axle: 3,120 lbs (Front GAWR 3,595lbs)
Rear Axle: 5,460 lbs (Rear GAWR 4,300lbs)
LX Gross: 8,580 lbs (GVWR 7,385lbs)
Payload: ~2,200 lbs (Rated 1,411 lbs)
Trailer axles: 7,040 lbs (Trailer GAWR 7,600 lbs)
Tongue: ~1,200 lbs (Rated 850 lbs)
Trailer Gross: ~8,250 lbs (GVWR 7,600 lbs, LX570 rated 8,500 lbs, *2009)
GCWR: 15,620 lbs (GCWR 14,920)

I'd encourage you to look at some forums for scaled weights of the Outdoors RV 23DBS. I'd bet it's over 7k dry. With tongue over 1200lbs. Not trying to scare you but that's the common reality of how these things are.

We decided against the newer 23DBS. It really is too heavy. (thanks for everyones input on this)
There is still a possibility the dealer may reconsider my offer on the older model.
One thing ORV does with their unloaded weights is rate them as Full Featured Dry Weights. It does include all of the standard items the trailer has excluding propane, water, batteries and extra options. It's not a bare bones rating as a lot of them are. But yes, they can get heavy fast.

I do have a WeighSafe hitch and will check the actual tongue weight on whatever trailer we do end up getting. The bad thing of where I live is it is 2 hours to the closest scales (Missoula).

Most trips with the trailer will be within 35 miles for rental deliveries. Being this close to Glacier Nat Park, that is where a majority of renters go and water can be had at virtually all campgrounds.

That being said, our few personal trips will be much further (hoping for LCDC this year) so have to be mindful of that.
We are still hoping to find a 21DBS as that would be a more comfortable weight rating but only see one currently for sale.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

One thing ORV does with their unloaded weights is rate them as Full Featured Dry Weights. It does include all of the standard items the trailer has excluding propane, water, batteries and extra options. It's not a bare bones rating as a lot of them are. But yes, they can get heavy fast.

I'm pretty sure their weight ratings do not include water, which is by far and large the most significant contributor to weight. According to other forums, even batteries and options are not included, which makes sense, given that two trailers of the same model can have different options and thus different weight. Probably worth calling up ORV and getting the correct info straight from the horses' mouth. Dealers don't know squat.

 

[2021 LC200]

It's in your owners manual

Good point, I actually have looked what is in the manual. For the 2020/2021 LC200 it is shown below. GCWR would be combined actual vehicle and trailer weight limit, not the max rated weight of each.

There is no mention of a max trailer GVWR, so like the flatbed example, this does not appear, actually cannot be the limiting factor stand alone.

The limits is GCWR and GAWR, likely of the rear axle as 10% tongue weight is applied. It all depends how many big adults and other payload you carry in the vehicle or travel trailer. As TeCKis300 points out, that can be the case. Certainly a bunch of aftermarket equipment can make it more challenging (roof rack, heavier rims/tires, suspension and biggies like metal skid plats or bumpers).

 

[linuxgod]

Good point, I actually have looked what is in the manual. For the 2020/2021 LC200 it is shown below. GCWR would be combined actual vehicle and trailer weight limit, not the max rated weight of each.

There is no mention of a max trailer GVWR, so like the flatbed example, this does not appear, actually cannot be the limiting factor stand alone.

The limits is GCWR and GAWR, likely of the rear axle as 10% tongue weight is applied. It all depends how many big adults and other payload you carry in the vehicle or travel trailer. As TeCKis300 points out, that can be the case. Certainly a bunch of aftermarket equipment can make it more challenging (roof rack, heavier rims/tires, suspension and biggies like metal skid plats or bumpers).

View attachment 3579668

Yep that’s correct. I didn’t want to quote a weight rating since the TWR and GCWR change depending on model year and LX vs LC.

 

[Ratchey]

I'm pretty sure their weight ratings do not include water, which is by far and large the most significant contributor to weight. According to other forums, even batteries and options are not included, which makes sense, given that two trailers of the same model can have different options and thus different weight. Probably worth calling up ORV and getting the correct info straight from the horses' mouth. Dealers don't know squat.

That's what I was saying above. It excludes water, propane, batteries and additional options. The weight ratings I quoted in my beginning post are from ORV and not this dealer. I doubt this dealer has ever seen more than one or two of them. They are strictly a used RV dealer. But a lot of RVs have their dry weight listed without AC, Fridge, and things like that. They are rarely close to the actual dry weight.

The dealer called today trying to get me to come up on my offer but I am holding to it. Should know tomorrow if they accept.

GVRW on this one comes in at 7980 (dry weight is 6180) so under my limit of 8500. As long as I can keep the cargo down, (we don't travel with much more than we equip it for rentals) and watch tongue weight, I think we will be OK. No long hauls with water.

 

[skrypj]

Why did the GCWR of the LX570 go down in 2011?

The Payload capacity is high enough to comply with SAE J2807 and still have a GCWR of 14400 and trailer weight of ~8100 lbs. I believe the calculation needs to be done with a 10% tongue weight, 300 lbs of passengers, and a 75 lb WDH. My math says that means the payload needs to be 1185. My 2018 fully loaded LX570 has a payload sticker of 1278 lbs including the little sticker saying its reduced by 7 lbs due to accessories.

GCWR of the 2011+ LX is 13400 lbs instead of the 14400

Also, I kinda suspect that the payload capacity is higher than 1285 lbs. Toyota just generically slaps a single number on all trucks, they do this on the Tundra too. If you look in the owners manual it shows 1285 as well. I think even a lesser optioned, non-3rd row LX also would show 1285 on the sticker. I know with the 3rd gen Tundra, people were scaling the trucks and their payload capacity was actually 200-250 lbs more than the door sticker said.

 

[LX Cruiser]

Why did the GCWR of the LX570 go down in 2011?

To satisfy the newly adopted standard. It penalizes higher trim, more fully-loaded models. 150 lb more stuff on the LX compared to the LC? That means 150 lb less tongue weight capacity which means 1500 lb less trailer weight.

My '09's GVWR is 7275 lb. Payload is 1235. Manual says I'm good for an 8500 lb trailer. In 2011, that went down to 7000 lb.
Wife and I plus 850 lb of tongue weight from an 8500 lb trailer and a 75 lb WDH would be within my payload rating, but not the updated trailer rating.

 

[linuxgod]

To satisfy the newly adopted standard. It penalizes higher trim, more fully-loaded models. 150 lb more stuff on the LX compared to the LC? That means 150 lb less tongue weight capacity which means 1500 lb less trailer weight.

My '09's GVWR is 7275 lb. Payload is 1235. Manual says I'm good for an 8500 lb trailer. In 2011, that went down to 7000 lb.
Wife and I plus 850 lb of tongue weight from an 8500 lb trailer and a 75 lb WDH would be within my payload rating, but not the updated trailer rating.

They switched to the SAE standard in 2011 IIRC. Hence the payload drop. I don’t know the specifics behind the standard though I do know spring rates are different on the LX than the LC, so perhaps some of that is used in the engineering calculations? Otherwise the way the manufacturers want to always sell the biggest and most powerful full size vehicles why wouldn’t they do the SAE test with more and more weight until they actually hit the limit?

 

[skrypj]

To satisfy the newly adopted standard. It penalizes higher trim, more fully-loaded models. 150 lb more stuff on the LX compared to the LC? That means 150 lb less tongue weight capacity which means 1500 lb less trailer weight.

My '09's GVWR is 7275 lb. Payload is 1235. Manual says I'm good for an 8500 lb trailer. In 2011, that went down to 7000 lb.
Wife and I plus 850 lb of tongue weight from an 8500 lb trailer and a 75 lb WDH would be within my payload rating, but not the updated trailer rating.

What was it satisfying? I did the math in my post and there is 100 lbs more payload than would be needed to satisfy the 14400 GCWR. The requirements of J2807 are that there needs to be enough payload capacity for the 10% tongue weight of the trailer, 300 lbs of passengers, and 75 lb WDH. 8100*.10 = 810. 810+300+75 = 1185 lbs.

My 2018 has a 7385 lb gvwr and 1285 lb payload sticker. So in theory I should be able to tow more than your 2009 if payload was ever the limiting factor.

 

[LX Cruiser]

What was it satisfying? I did the math in my post and there is 100 lbs more payload than would be needed to satisfy the 14400 GCWR. The requirements of J2807 are that there needs to be enough payload capacity for the 10% tongue weight of the trailer, 300 lbs of passengers, and 75 lb WDH. 8100*.10 = 810. 810+300+75 = 1185 lbs.

My 2018 has a 7385 lb gvwr and 1285 lb payload sticker. So in theory I should be able to tow more than your 2009 if payload was ever the limiting factor.

I understand your math, and I agree. I’m just saying it’s because J2807 penalizes higher trim models.

Seems like their logic was just to subtract 1500 lb from the trailer weight bc the LX curb weight is probably 150 lb heavier than the LC.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

Seems like their logic was just to subtract 1500 lb from the trailer weight bc the LX curb weight is probably 150 lb heavier than the LC.

If "they" are detracting those 150lbs from the capability of the truck to handle tongue weight, and are assuming that tongue weight is 10% of the overall trailer weight, then detracting 1500lb from trailer weight would make sense.

I'm not sure I agree with their train of thought, but I understand that they need a standardized, one-size-fits-all process across all makes and models.

My '14 LX is one of those "affected" by the rule change/re-rating. On one hand, it's a bummer that I can't legally tow an 8500lb trailer, but on the other hand, I have zero interest in ever coming close to that number. What's more, knowing that even if I were to approach the upper limit of my new (7000lb) rating, I still had at least 1500lb of margin built into the vehicle, is more than comforting enough for my own sanity.

My current trailer is about 4200-4500lb; I can see myself maybe having a 6000lb (wet, fully loaded) trailer in the future, but that's about the upper limit of what I think is reasonable/somewhat enjoyable to tow.

 

[skrypj]

If "they" are detracting those 150lbs from the capability of the truck to handle tongue weight, and are assuming that tongue weight is 10% of the overall trailer weight, then detracting 1500lb from trailer weight would make sense.

I'm not sure I agree with their train of thought, but I understand that they need a standardized, one-size-fits-all process across all makes and models.

My '14 LX is one of those "affected" by the rule change/re-rating. On one hand, it's a bummer that I can't legally tow an 8500lb trailer, but on the other hand, I have zero interest in ever coming close to that number. What's more, knowing that even if I were to approach the upper limit of my new (7000lb) rating, I still had at least 1500lb of margin built into the vehicle, is more than comforting enough for my own sanity.

My current trailer is about 4200-4500lb; I can see myself maybe having a 6000lb (wet, fully loaded) trailer in the future, but that's about the upper limit of what I think is reasonable/somewhat enjoyable to tow.

But the problem is the LX has enough payload capacity that they don’t need to subtract that 150 pounds. So if that truly is the reason it seems like Toyota just being typical hyper conservative Toyota.

Ford doesn’t say you can’t tow the max rating just because you have a lariat instead of an XL as long as you’re lariat has enough payload capacity. I’ve seen some lariat with 1800 pounds of payload which means they could tow 14,000 pounds technically.

 

[eatSleepWoof]

But the problem is the LX has enough payload capacity that they don’t need to subtract that 150 pounds. So if that truly is the reason it seems like Toyota just being typical hyper conservative Toyota.

I'm sure there are economical considerations, too. How many LX owners tow? I mean, really? Probably a tiny fraction (outside of this forum). How much does it cost to get the vehicle tested/rated? Perhaps it didn't make economic sense. Perhaps there was a marketing aspect, too; do they want to market the LC are being more "tough"? There are certainly people that buy into that, even on this forum.

Might be similar to why only a few of the aftermarket bumpers (namely, ARB products) are ever actually tested for crash conditions - it's bloody expensive and small manufacturers simply can't swing the expense.

That's a lot of words to say: we just don't know the why.

 

[LX Cruiser]

Here’s a good post with a handy chart showing how higher trim/larger cab Tundras were de-rated more:

As I said earlier, SAE J2807 testing requires a representatively configured weight vehicle for the test. Previously, manufacturers used internal methodologies. Many of which based numbers on stripper chassis, and did not honor the highly optioned vehicles true weight.

An example that may help understanding is the Tundra. Within the 5.7L motor range, towing capacity spans 10,200 to 8800 lbs. A closer example might be comparing the same bodystyle, but SR5 to a well optioned 1794 Edition:
SR5 4x4 CrewMax 5.7L - tow capacity 9800lbs
1794 Edition 4x4 Crewmax 5.7 - tow capacity 8800lbs

SAE J2807 more greatly impacts vehicle configurations with higher weights:
View attachment 2012367

TL;DR more highly optioned vehicles based on the same chassis will have less towing capacity.

 

[linuxgod]

I suspect Toyota voluntarily derates because of added equipment which increases vehicle weight. They probably did the SAE test with an LC and rather than re-run the test with the LX they simply subtract the impact of the added weight, since TW must be 10%. They likely figured few LX owners will tow so it’s not worth repeating the test.

If you want to read the ins and outs of J2807, have fun:

https://fifthwheelst.com/documents/tow-test-standards-2016-02.pdf