What about just running a pedal commander in normal
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FrazzledHunter
SILVER Star
So we filled up the trailer with all our junk and had a short trip before we unhitched. While we were running I remembered to to hook up the OBDLink.
Maybe there's a better set of PID's to measure but this is what I got about half way through a 45 minute trip on flat highway in cruise control, S6 and ECT It's what I casually observed during our long trip from the dealer with the trailer a bit lighter.
Ignore Total Fuel Economy as it includes time while not towing.
wrong thread
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Ready to be berated for this question.
Went an looked at an older Outdoors RV 23DBS (Creekside class)
The numbers technically fall within the rated specs for my 09 LX.
Full featured dry weight (shipping weight) 6000lb
Dry hitch weight 760lb
GVWR 7800lb
Cargo capacity 1800lb
Length 27'8"
I don't think we will get it as I don't think we can come to an agreement on price based on work needed on trailer.
Found a newer model Outdoors RV 23DBS (TimberRidge class)
Same trailer but beefed up a bit, but the numbers are a lot different
Full featured dry weight (shipping weight) 6350lb
Dry hitch weight 695lb
GVWR 9995lb (better frame)
Cargo capacity 3645lb
Length 27'9"
Obviously I would never load it to capacity. (1.75 tons) Excluding water, trailer cargo would be less than 500 lbs. Even my generator is only 59lbs. 2 people, no pets. Rear seats replaced with fridge.
Am I just pushing the limit too far here?
Went an looked at an older Outdoors RV 23DBS (Creekside class)
The numbers technically fall within the rated specs for my 09 LX.
Full featured dry weight (shipping weight) 6000lb
Dry hitch weight 760lb
GVWR 7800lb
Cargo capacity 1800lb
Length 27'8"
I don't think we will get it as I don't think we can come to an agreement on price based on work needed on trailer.
Found a newer model Outdoors RV 23DBS (TimberRidge class)
Same trailer but beefed up a bit, but the numbers are a lot different
Full featured dry weight (shipping weight) 6350lb
Dry hitch weight 695lb
GVWR 9995lb (better frame)
Cargo capacity 3645lb
Length 27'9"
Obviously I would never load it to capacity. (1.75 tons) Excluding water, trailer cargo would be less than 500 lbs. Even my generator is only 59lbs. 2 people, no pets. Rear seats replaced with fridge.
Am I just pushing the limit too far here?
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- Thread starter
- #1,825
Without water I’ve got about 1500# in my trailer, which has a dry weight of about 4500#
That cargo capacity does sound like a whole lot of weight. I’ll give my thoughts below but first I’ll explain what influences them. We’re 2 adults with 2 boys under 10 and tow a off road camper so we are somewhat conscious about weight.
Thoughts: you will be surprised to find out that what you think your stuff weighs and what it will actually way on a set of cat scales is going to probably be wildly different.
Also, are you planning to boondock? If I’m not mistaken, those Outdoors campers are not your typical rvs, correct? We have friends who have one and they said theirs is a 4 season thing with beefier construction to handle light gravel and whatnot. They had originally thought boondocking was not a thing for them but they joined us on one of our typical camp weekends and they discovered they liked “roughing” it a bit more than they thought. All this to say that towing without water may not always be standard for you.
While my camper is well within the tow limit of my cruiser (5000lb fully loaded 425lb tongue) my cruiser would be categorized as a BBV (big beautiful vehicle)… it’s really fat. I’m dealing with weight on the overall GVWR but the Cruiser has no problem with this.
You would need to be very careful about cargo weight. Looking at that trailer specs, the 10 gallon hot water tank is always going to be full, so there’s 80 lbs. You’ll have a heavy weight distribution hitch, full propane tanks, some water for convenience in the fresh tank, gas for the generator, etc,etc. Manufacturers list the least possible dry weight, often excluding essentials. @Artie and @linuxgod are right about realistic numbers for towing weight including cargo. Tongue weight can add up quickly too, so if you get the camper take the time to get things weighed.
That's too much weight. Even if you have it empty, if the sticker says 9995lb GVWR, any cop that pulls you over can easily claim that you are pulling more weight than your vehicle can handle, and they won't need a scale to argue their point of view - it's right there on the decals.
Now, whether a cop in your neck of the woods will care is another question. Out here we do have enforcement that pays attention to such things.
Another scenario is that you're in an accident and the trailer is destroyed, with pieces scattered everywhere. Good luck convincing someone (ie. your insurance) that you were not at full GVWR and thus over what your vehicle can tow. I wouldn't want to deal with that headache.
To your question, yes, I think this will be asking too much. The thing with trailer specs is they are never accurate because they are always outfitted and never exists as a bare trailer. GVWR is a more useful realistic in use weight, and that's a big number.
While it may pull the trailer and be stable, there other considerations like range, efficiency, and drivability. IMO, your proposed weight class of trailer will not be a good fit for the 200-series. To the point that it may not be satisfying or enjoyable to tow. This will result in subconsciously using the trailer less, avoiding longer or more adventurous road trips, and compromising on the trips you really want to do.
More is just more and it's easy to get caught up in that. I enjoy using gear and toys as much as the next guy and that's sometimes motivation in itself to go camping. If I'm being honest, the more I camp, the more I find satisfaction in using less. With trailers, smaller lighter trailers offer for flexibility at least for the way I like to camp. If I'm full timing, that may be a different story.
A 23ft travel trailer (body) seems well within reason so I would not expect a lot of sway challenges in combination with the 200. Next is air drag which is not going to be any different between shorter 19ft or 23ft models.
Be nice to be able to tow it with the current owner and check out overall feeling and behavior.
Having said that, overall weight may slow you some in the mountains. While the 3UR-FE is pretty good, you would probably have to limit how much you push uphill. I have a Passport 221BHS which’s I believe is empty around 5800 lbs. When I am in the mountains I do a couple of things:
- Speed up to 75/80 mph at the bottom before I go up, every little bit of momentum helps…
- Always have the gearbox in S6 (8 speed), just to manage gearbox temps
- Manage my right foot between 75 to 90% throttle, however slow down when revs are continuous above 5000 to let it fall back between 4000 and 5000. This may mean going up slower and one gear down. Slower up is good for the drive train load
The later I do to not push things to the limit as I am on vacation anyways and like my 200 to last. It also keeps my gearbox temps within reason. Call it a “smart” right foot, call me a “p$ssy”. The 200 can probably be pushed without major issues, but I am happier this way.
Do the same (not pushing it) on flat roads, typically tow at 65 to 70 as at 75 or 80 it just feels hard work and now I have to overtake more often, otherwise the drive is nice and relaxed right hand lane at 65 to 70.
Good luck with the purchase decision. If the newer model is good otherwise, I would go for it. The stronger frame, especially with a WDH, is a very good thing to have.
Just curious, not trying to be a smart ass, where does it say on the 200 here in the US that 8000lbs is the GVWR for a trailer behind the vehicle?
Otherwise 23ft body is quite common behind a SUV.
Also empty vehicle weight at 5800 to 6000 lbs is another 400 to 600lbs over for example the F150. I know the longer wheel base there helps to tow longer trailers, still the 200 and brakes of the same are quite up to it. Also tow hook to rear axle distance is quite favorable.
I do not overtake in the process of gaining some momentum and what is the deal overtaking me at 45 or 50mph going uphill? If i go relative slow it is very quick for those going up at 75 or 80mph.
What actually annoys me most in North Americais folk driving left lane at 65 or 70mph while the right lane is plenty free. I have lived in many countries, best way for my like is the German way of highway driving.
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As indicated, interested to know what is the formal source for the police to know or enforce trailer GVWR when towing with a 200. I like to know and happy to be educated on this subject.
In the mean time:
1) My Texas title shows empty vehicle weight at 5800lbs. No mention of GVWR let alone that of a trailer.
2) Door VIN sticker shows 200 GVWR and axle capacities. At 5800lbs + fuel and occupants, say 6500 lbs and devided equal front and rear at 3250 lbs at leaves 1050 lbs to 4300 lbs rating shown, or a tonque load of 1050 lbs max. Again happy to be corrected by those who know more about this.
One addition - I did install airbags in the rear coil springs to keep the 200 level. The LX has AHC but there is a recommended limit for those. Understand TeCKis300 has added airbags to his LX and is enjoying the additional assist when towing. Can also be used to level the vehicle when sleeping inside the vehcile or roof top.
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I don't know whether the tow capacity is listed on the vehicle specifically, but I'm pretty sure it will be two mouse clicks away in the cop's laptop. People can (do) certainly play the odds, but I prefer to be fully, comfortably in the clear - I don't need yet another headache to worry about.
@Ratchey - I looked at a 2020 (or was it 2019?) Outdoors 21RD Creekside about 1.5 months ago. In the fairly new and supposedly "barely used and well maintained" trailer I had found the following:
⁃ Everything needs to be resealed; butyl and sealant cracking and peeling everywhere
⁃ Rear driver side tire has excessive interior wear; axle likely misaligned
⁃ Rubber bushings completely destroyed on all four shocks; immediate replacement needed
⁃ Suspicious dirt/grease on MORyde CRE 3000 suspension components; might need replacement
⁃ A few cabinetry screws loose in the interior, toilet, exterior storage area
⁃ Drawers poorly built: stapled together
⁃ At least two drawers have very crookedly installed slides; function fine
⁃ Small piece of trim missing on back panel of dinette
⁃ Drawers, cabinets, fridge, everything interior is filthy; stove is filthy; fans are filthy
⁃ Undercarriage is covered with OEM corrugated plastic - some bolts have torn through, some other scratches/tears to it
After talking to the local dealer re: re-sealing everything, talking to the local tire shop re: replacing all 5 tires (due to age), talking to the local trailer axle shop (re: axle and suspension), I was looking at a minimum of $5k CAD in repairs just to get it road worthy and weathertight. Seller wasn't willing to budge on the price so I passed on it.
Just FYI. My impression was that the trailers are decently built, but far from "great." The bottom undercarriage covering is no different from my (way cheaper) Winnebago, and I strongly question their "4 season" advertising. I'd say 3 seasons without worry, and maybe 3.5 if you're smart and careful about it. Interior cabinetry built in much the same way as typical Indiana-made trailers. The custom frame was nice, as were the huge water tanks - that's a big plus.
Overall there were a lot of things that gave me pause on the question of value (given the premium price tag). If you're in the price range for a new one of these, consider a 3-4 year old BigFoot, which will be significantly better built, and should be in the similar price range.
⁃ Everything needs to be resealed; butyl and sealant cracking and peeling everywhere
⁃ Rear driver side tire has excessive interior wear; axle likely misaligned
⁃ Rubber bushings completely destroyed on all four shocks; immediate replacement needed
⁃ Suspicious dirt/grease on MORyde CRE 3000 suspension components; might need replacement
⁃ A few cabinetry screws loose in the interior, toilet, exterior storage area
⁃ Drawers poorly built: stapled together
⁃ At least two drawers have very crookedly installed slides; function fine
⁃ Small piece of trim missing on back panel of dinette
⁃ Drawers, cabinets, fridge, everything interior is filthy; stove is filthy; fans are filthy
⁃ Undercarriage is covered with OEM corrugated plastic - some bolts have torn through, some other scratches/tears to it
After talking to the local dealer re: re-sealing everything, talking to the local tire shop re: replacing all 5 tires (due to age), talking to the local trailer axle shop (re: axle and suspension), I was looking at a minimum of $5k CAD in repairs just to get it road worthy and weathertight. Seller wasn't willing to budge on the price so I passed on it.
Just FYI. My impression was that the trailers are decently built, but far from "great." The bottom undercarriage covering is no different from my (way cheaper) Winnebago, and I strongly question their "4 season" advertising. I'd say 3 seasons without worry, and maybe 3.5 if you're smart and careful about it. Interior cabinetry built in much the same way as typical Indiana-made trailers. The custom frame was nice, as were the huge water tanks - that's a big plus.
Overall there were a lot of things that gave me pause on the question of value (given the premium price tag). If you're in the price range for a new one of these, consider a 3-4 year old BigFoot, which will be significantly better built, and should be in the similar price range.
Looks like the 2009 LX570 per the manual has a gross combined weight not to exceed 14550 lbs (see snapshot below). Assuming loaded vehicle (LX570 + fuel + passengers + cargo) is around 6500 lbs that leaves ~8050 lbs for the trailer. At 6350 lbs empty there seems a good amount for water, clothes, food, kitchen stuff etc.
There are articles discussing the legality of going over GCWR and being an issue during an accident. That makes sense and is probably wise to avoid.
The question then seems; When the trailer stated GVWR (on the label) + loaded vehicle is over the vehicle manual stated GCWR, are you illegal? Or does the actual trailer weight (empty + payload) matters? Reading discussions and the SAE J2807 it seems the later as GVW gets stated in relation to GCWR, with the R dropped off.
I am not a lawyer however and maybe this should be part of your go/no go decision. Perhaps weighing your combination loaded up (say 5 adult males) and a bunch of stuff in the trailer and take time stamped pictures of the same while on the weight bridge can be way to show you are under 14550lbs. This is a stretch and may not carry any weight in court.
There are articles discussing the legality of going over GCWR and being an issue during an accident. That makes sense and is probably wise to avoid.
The question then seems; When the trailer stated GVWR (on the label) + loaded vehicle is over the vehicle manual stated GCWR, are you illegal? Or does the actual trailer weight (empty + payload) matters? Reading discussions and the SAE J2807 it seems the later as GVW gets stated in relation to GCWR, with the R dropped off.
I am not a lawyer however and maybe this should be part of your go/no go decision. Perhaps weighing your combination loaded up (say 5 adult males) and a bunch of stuff in the trailer and take time stamped pictures of the same while on the weight bridge can be way to show you are under 14550lbs. This is a stretch and may not carry any weight in court.
I haven't looked at the newer one yet, 6 hours away (2019) but the 2016 I looked at was in pretty good shape.
I pulled every drawer and door and everything was solid. It did need resealing on the roof around all of the fixtures, the stairs were sagging and was missing the poles to convert the table to a bed. It is at a dealer so they had done most of the interior cleanup. The older one doesn't have the shocks or the CRE 3000. Axles looked straight. No weird tire wear. I just need them to come down another 1k to cover the work I need to do to it.
This will be primarily a rental with us using it 2 to 3 times a year. Already have a 17' Palomini 179BHS as a rental but I hate the wet bath setup. But it is light and easy for people to tow.
Everything I am looking at is under 30k USD. Trying to stay closer to 20k.
The reason they are considered a 4 season is that the tanks are wrapped with insulation, the fresh has a 12v heating blanket around it and the heat is floor ducted as well as ducted into the tank bays.
So how would that work with a flatbed trailer. Say I towing a 20' flatbed that weighed about 2000 lbs, but was rated with a GVWR of 14K lbs.
How can they ticket on unknown intent? I know CA varies in their regulations and can pull you over even without a reason. But how would that go in court. "Your honor, it is possible he may have been planning on towing 14K lbs but is only rated for 8500 lbs."
I will have to look into that. We do travel into CA about once or twice a year.
I don't think that would fly in the US. Virtually every long haul trucker pulls trailers that can far exceed the weight ratings of both their vehicle and the roadways. But everything is based on actual weight, not potential.
- Thread starter
- #1,840
It's in your owners manual