Towing with a 200-series Toyota Land Cruiser (8 Viewers)

[sadovnik]

Did Kimberly tell you exactly why a WD hitch can't be used? I'm not challenging anything, rather just genuinely curious.

Maybe it's like my Aluma utility trailer? Aluma states it will void the warranty if you use a WD hitch on their trailers. Is the frame on the Kimberley also aluminum?

 

[eatSleepWoof]

Did Kimberly tell you exactly why a WD hitch can't be used? I'm not challenging anything, rather just genuinely curious.

My (completely speculative) guesses:
- the angles of the a-frame don't fall inline with what WD hitches expect
- the size of the frame is too large to work with WD hitches
- the WD hitch might add more stress to the frame, which the frame is not designed for

 

[FrazzledHunter]

My (completely speculative) guesses:
- the angles of the a-frame don't fall inline with what WD hitches expect
- the size of the frame is too large to work with WD hitches
- the WD hitch might add more stress to the frame, which the frame is not designed for

Looking at the pictures...
My (completely speculative) guess is that the rails of the frame do not appear to run the length of the trailer. A WD hitch would provide a torque which might stress the "A" part of the hitch and where it anchors to the underbelly of the trailer. But my view of the trailer's picture could be off. Or like you said maybe the frame is just too light.

It's a really nice looking trailer and I've heard great things about them (hence my curiosity). I'd love to see one.

 

[dubyahard]

I used to insist people should go no higher than 4th in the 6 speed or 6th in the 8 speed. That 1:1 (non-overdrive) gear tends to be the sweet spot for gas mileage and A/T temperature control. I still think that's generally true if you have stock gearing and a big trailer. But after re-gearing my 2013 to 4.88's this year, I think I can fine-tune the advice, so here goes...

You can tow in any gear you want, SO LONG AS YOU CAN MAINTAIN TORQUE CONVERTER LOCKUP IN THAT GEAR. That part is key. If you can't keep the TC locked, you're going to generate a tremendous amount of heat. In that case you need to run one gear lower. Now that said even if you can keep the TC locked in your top gear, you probably shouldn't run in that gear unless you have a very light trailer as A/T fluid pressure is lower and won't cool as well. But, so long as the TC stays locked the difference will be small.

If your TC unlocks, or if your transmission downshifts, you need to manually shift to a lower gear - EVEN IF YOU'RE JUST MANUALLY SELECTING THE GEAR IT DOWNSHIFTED TO. That part is also key. And it's a bit unintuitive for most of us. We tend to think "If the transmission downshifted from 6th to 5th then why downshift because the transmission already knows the right gear?" But that's not how it works. With the 2008-2015 6-speed A/T, if you're in 6th gear and the TC is locked, then you approach a hill the T/C unlocks, you speed continues to drop, and the transmission drops into 5th gear. However it does NOT lock the TC while you're in 5th, if you have 6th gear selected. Instead it hums along all day in 5th gear with the TC unlocked, getting worse gas mileage than if you'd just selected 5th gear from the get-go (which would allow the transmission to lock-up the TC in 5th gear).

The thing about Toyota's TC lockup algorithm is that it prioritizes fuel economy over A/T wear (temperature control, specifically). The TC lock is about a 10% fuel improvement, give or take. So if you're going 70 mph and getting a phenomenal 7.5-8 MPG, unlocking will drop that to ~7 MPG. If you downshift another gear you might drop further to 5.5-6 MPG. So, in this CAFE-focused country, you can see why Toyota would opt for economy. If the transmission detects that you need more help to maintain speed (but not so much you're mashing the skinny pedal and forcing the A/T to drop one or two gears down), it will unlock the torque converter first. If that doesn't give you the power you need to maintain (or gain) speed, then it will drop another gear. In lower gears it won't lock the TC because it's goal is to get you back to the higher gear as quickly as possible and if the TC locks up in a lower gear it then needs to unlock to shift.

Previously in my rig (34s, poor aero, stock 3.90 gears) I could keep the TC locked in 4th gear, but 5th was sketchy. If it was really flat and I was going maybe 60mph it would stay locked, but higher speeds or any hills and it would unlock. While locked it would run in the 196-201F range all day. When unlocked it would climb to ~220-225F in the span of a minute or two.

Upon re-gearing I've found I can typically hold 5th gear if it's reasonably flat or long rolling hills, even up to 75 mph. So long as I can hold 5th, my temps are stable (after regear my 4th and 5th gear temp are in the 208-212F range typically. If the TC unlocks though they will rise by +20F pretty quickly. If it unlocks, I manually shift to 4th until I'm sure that I can go back into 5th and lock the TC.

Side note about 6th - I've tried to run in 6th with my 4.88's and if it's REALLY flat and I'm not pushing my speed to more than 60 or maybe 65 I can do it. However the transmission fluid pressure (and thus cooling ability) is directly related to engine RPM. And in 6th gear the RPMs are low enough that fluid circulates slowly and in my experience will run the transmission several degrees warmer (around 217-218F for me, or about +5F to +7F) even when the TC is locked. And don't even bother with 6th gear on stock gearing unless your trailer is so light and small that it's unnoticed (like a small turtleback or popup).

This is spectacular info. Here I've been, towing the same 2185, humming along in 5th or 6th when it's flat, both killing my MPG and A/T. So you're saying, lock it in S4 when towing on flat right? (I have a 2008 LX with 35s)

 

[linuxgod]

This is spectacular info. Here I've been, towing the same 2185, humming along in 5th or 6th when it's flat, both killing my MPG and A/T. So you're saying, lock it in S4 when towing on flat right? (I have a 2008 LX with 35s)

On 35s, yes you should generally run in 4th gear.

You can stretch into 5th gear if you can keep the TC locked. I recommend using OBD Fusion with the Enhanced Toyota PID pack to monitor your actual gear and for TC lockup. If you need an OBD Fusion dashboard which shows A/T temps, current gear, and TC lockup status, let me know. With 35s on stock gearing, you probably won't be able to do that very often though (or at least when I had stock gears and 34s I rarely could).

Re-gearing to 4.30 would get you back to stock gearing, and would let you hold 5th sometimes. 4.88 would give you a lot more gear to work with and let you definitely hold 5th a lot more often, though your highway MPG will suffer when you're not towing. (FWIW my city MPG went up when I first went to 4.88s and was babying the gears during break-in (to the tune of 20 MPG!), but given how much torque I feel off the line my MPG now suffers quite a bit :-D )

 

[catastrofe]

Did Kimberly tell you exactly why a WD hitch can't be used? I'm not challenging anything, rather just genuinely curious.

Yep, they said a WD system can’t be used. I think the issue is twofold, the primary reason being there’s no room in the trailer tongue to mount the brackets for the WD system. Secondarily, when off-road the hitch needs to be able to have full articulation and a WD system would prevent that.

 

[catastrofe]

Maybe it's like my Aluma utility trailer? Aluma states it will void the warranty if you use a WD hitch on their trailers. Is the frame on the Kimberley also aluminum?

Frame is galvanized steel. I believe the issue is space and use case off-road.

 

[linuxgod]

Since a couple people pinged me, here's my latest OBD Fusion dashboard (with a live action shot, nonetheless). It's laid out to fit my iPhone X, so your screen may vary. The green ring in the bottom around the gear lights up when the torque converter locks up, and turns off when it unlocks:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Dan Higgins]

Thanks.

We are now traveling full time in our Kimberley. Drove from Bellefontaine OH to Flagstaff over the last 5 days. S6 all the way, with S5 or S4 on the larger uphill grades.

BTW, since you are from Florida and rarely contend with hills , IF you head down to Phoenix just know that one of the more dangerous descents in the US for truckers is that stretch of I-17 from Flagstaff down to Phoenix. Very long which has led to overheated brakes on trucks. (I learned this from a handy book, written by a trucker for truckers, that provides info on all of the mountain passes in the western US. The author when first driving a semi almost lost it on that descent). And, yes, that is the primary reason to leverage engine compression on long descents as was pointed out earlier.

On the topic of using the engine compression, when I was first taught to offroad/4WD by Bill Burke and others I was told to use engine/transmission compression on steep descents - even when in 4LO - as it was more controlled than using the brakes where a brake can lock up. Of course things like CRAWL control and Hill Descent have mitigated some of that.

For those of us in the mountain states, using engine compression to help manage speed on steep descents if very common. Even without trailers and on other vehicles that have sufficient engine compression/gearing.

 

[NTV]

BTW, since you are from Florida and rarely contend with hills , IF you head down to Phoenix just know that one of the more dangerous descents in the US for truckers is that stretch of I-17 from Flagstaff down to Phoenix. Very long which has led to overheated brakes on trucks. (I learned this from a handy book, written by a trucker for truckers, that provides info on all of the mountain passes in the western US. The author when first driving a semi almost lost it on that descent). And, yes, that is the primary reason to leverage engine compression on long descents as was pointed out earlier.

On the topic of using the engine compression, when I was first taught to offroad/4WD by Bill Burke and others I was told to use engine/transmission compression on steep descents - even when in 4LO - as it was more controlled than using the brakes where a brake can lock up. Of course things like CRAWL control and Hill Descent have mitigated some of that.

For those of us in the mountain states, using engine compression to help manage speed on steep descents if very common. Even without trailers and on other vehicles that have sufficient engine compression/gearing.

Agree 100percent. Gearing down even without a trailer in tow helps a ton when grades get steep. Thanks to this thread I have been running my 2018 LC with 3000lb turtleback in tow in 6th gear with ECT on and it has towed like a dream. Running 33in KO2’s on stock suspension and has worked very well. Can’t wait for next camping trip after having OME BP51 installed and how the turtleback will tow with the new suspension. I could see how a heavier trailer than what I am running could result in the 8 speed transmission hunting for gears especially in the mountains.

 

[dubyahard]

Since a couple people pinged me, here's my latest OBD Fusion dashboard (with a live action shot, nonetheless). It's laid out to fit my iPhone X, so your screen may vary. The green ring in the bottom around the gear lights up when the torque converter locks up, and turns off when it unlocks:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

View attachment 2794167

Is there a place that shows if your torque converter is locked or not?
Also, do you recommend a particular bluetooth OBD reader?

 

[linuxgod]

The ring around the "Gear" dial will light up green when the TC is locked, and will disappear when it's unlocked.

I'm currently using this OBD2 bluetooth dongle. It seems to work well. I leave it plugged in all the time... it will turn off after the truck turns off so it doesn't drain the battery, as far as I can tell. My only nuisance is that the LEDs flash so you get some flickering light under your dashboard if you're using it, but it's easily solved with a piece of black electrical tape

Amazon product ASIN B06XGB4873

 

[TeCKis300]

Yep, they said a WD system can’t be used. I think the issue is twofold, the primary reason being there’s no room in the trailer tongue to mount the brackets for the WD system. Secondarily, when off-road the hitch needs to be able to have full articulation and a WD system would prevent that.

Agreed and sounds about right.

There's other things that can be optimized for stability to reduce the likelihood of sway without using WD bars. Kimberley's look to have generally longer draw bars, less frontal and side profiles to catch wind, and possibly better weight distribution within their trailers to minimize moment of inertia. Not unlike boat trailers which generally don't rely on WD systems.

There's other things owners can do. Keep the tow ball as close and tight to the rear bumper as possible to minimize trailer leverage on the tow vehicle. Increasing tire pressures, particularly if using high profile tires.

Speed is the final major factor to sway. Every bumper pulled articulated setup has a speed threshold for stability, before sway forces can set up. Using WD bars and dialing in various parameters can greatly increase that threshold and safe margin. Could be that a Kimberly as an off-road focused trailer, and one designed for another country with generally lower prevailing speeds... should be something to keep in mind.

 

[nakman]

Looks like I'm going to hell then, as I towed in Drive the whole way...

The ring around the "Gear" dial will light up green when the TC is locked, and will disappear when it's unlocked.

I'm currently using this OBD2 bluetooth dongle. It seems to work well. I leave it plugged in all the time... it will turn off after the truck turns off so it doesn't drain the battery, as far as I can tell. My only nuisance is that the LEDs flash so you get some flickering light under your dashboard if you're using it, but it's easily solved with a piece of black electrical tape

Amazon product ASIN B06XGB4873

Geoff did you have to do any hackin' to get all of those temperatures, or is all that free & available data from the OBD port? Just thinking how when I got ATF temps to work with the Scanguage II on the 100, it involved some type of trickery to make it find the data, I forget the specifics but I know it's up here somewhere. But man that looks like a pretty nice setup, I may snag one of thoses and replicate your dash next time I'm towing, thanks!

 

[linuxgod]

Looks like I'm going to hell then, as I towed in Drive the whole way...

Geoff did you have to do any hackin' to get all of those temperatures, or is all that free & available data from the OBD port? Just thinking how when I got ATF temps to work with the Scanguage II on the 100, it involved some type of trickery to make it find the data, I forget the specifics but I know it's up here somewhere. But man that looks like a pretty nice setup, I may snag one of thoses and replicate your dash next time I'm towing, thanks!

OBD Fusion costs $5. You also have to buy the Toyota Enhanced PID pack for $10. But it's worth the $15

 

[GordJ]

Looks like I'm going to hell then, as I towed in Drive the whole way...

Don’t worry, as they say hell ain’t even half full. I’ve been hauling trailers around for quite a few miles in Drive with the ECT button off and I’ve not had one demon show up. My owners manuals don’t say anything about needing to use anything except Drive and I’m going to keep on truckin’ in Drive.

 

[Ratchey]

Don’t worry, as they say hell ain’t even half full. I’ve been hauling trailers around for quite a few miles in Drive with the ECT button off and I’ve not had one demon show up. My owners manuals don’t say anything about needing to use anything except Drive and I’m going to keep on truckin’ in Drive.

Are you monitoring your tranny temps? If not, you might try. You will be surprised how fast and how high the temps climb when the transmission unlocks.

 

[GordJ]

Are you monitoring your tranny temps? If not, you might try. You will be surprised how fast and how high the temps climb when the transmission unlocks.

Lol. No. I only have 230,000 miles on the LC and about 120,000 on the LX so I’m assuming that tranny temps haven’t been too much of an issue? I’ve pulled my trailer from as far south as you can be in BC to as far North as you can drive in Canada more than once in Drive exclusively with auto headlights, auto wipers and auto tranny. I understand that some of us like to get into the internals more than others but I bought mine to drive and not to analyze. No knocks on those who do, just isn’t me.

 

[gaijin]

Since a couple people pinged me, here's my latest OBD Fusion dashboard (with a live action shot, nonetheless). It's laid out to fit my iPhone X, so your screen may vary. The green ring in the bottom around the gear lights up when the torque converter locks up, and turns off when it unlocks:

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

View attachment 2794167

Thanks for posting this. But can you help a dummy out?

I downloaded your .stg file, and the OBD dongle you recommend is arriving tomorrow, but... I am a total noob at the logic behind getting these two things to work together.

I do have OBD Fusion with the Toyota specific files running on my iPhone, but how do I get your .stg file into OBD Fusion? I don't even know where to start.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

 

[linuxgod]

Thanks for posting this. But can you help a dummy out?

I downloaded your .stg file, and the OBD dongle you recommend is arriving tomorrow, but... I am a total noob at the logic behind getting these two things to work together.

I do have OBD Fusion with the Toyota specific files running on my iPhone, but how do I get your .stg file into OBD Fusion? I don't even know where to start.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

1. Copy the .stg file to your dropbox or icloud account.
2. Go to "Settings -> Preferences -> Dropbox/iCloud" and log into your dropbox or iCloud account.
3. Then go to "Settings -> Menu -> Import Settings", select either dorpbox or iCloud (whichever you copied the .stg file to) and select the .stg dashboard file