my buddies parents are extremly rich and they just happen to have a t-reg. and yes i do have wheeled it, and yes it does kick ass. i think it is a very capible rig for being stock, ive never wheeled a 100 but id imagen it would be tough to beat
Touareg vs LC
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TLC vs G-wagen. I have a 2004 G500...my brother has a 2001 LX470.
TLC is a great performer on-road and off-road. I almost bought one...decided against it because i want something different...and unique. 2005 is the last year of civilian G-wagens. After this year, only the military version will continue (until 2025). US and world will get an "off-road" version of the new M-class (POS!).
Defending the G-wagen:
1. As most off-roaders know, solid axles provide constant ground clearance vs. IFS. No matter the terrain, solid axles maintain the same ground clearance. The same cannot be said about IFS. I am sure you guys have argued this to death.
2. If you care to look under the G-wagen, then you will see that the differential pumpkins are offset to the passenger side (both front and rear)...like Land Rovers. (This is similar to your TLC rear axle BTW.) So, if you were to go over a big rock, requiring lots of ground clearance, then you can easily line the G-wagen up so that the rock goes under the driver's side (opposite side to pumpkins). Driver's side ground clearance is close to 11". When you add in good approach/breakover/departure angles (all better than stock TLC), the G-wagen is quite capable for stock.
3. Largest tire size for a stock G-wagen is 285/65/18, which is 33". No rubbing at all. I know a few owners who have BFG AT KO in this size on their stock G.
4. G-wagen has no rear anti-roll bar. It does have a thick front bar.
5. Have you seen the frame of the G-wagen?? It's so simple, yet so strong. Civilian and military G-wagens are built on the same assembly line. Military versions are not much different from civilian models...uses the same frame and suspension.
6. Lockers...all gear-based. The axles are made for the lockers from factory. Since 1980, there has not been a G-wagen without lockers from factory. And when you don't lock the lockers, i still have ATRAC (4-wheel tractoin control), like the TLC. So, i can wheel like you guys or i can lock the lockers.
I highly respect TLC/LX platform...you can see my responses on ClubLexus.com (I am tigmd99 over there) and my own forum (www.t4r.org). My brother loves his LX...it is far superior to my G-wagen on-road and cargo space. But, when it comes to off-road, G-wagen has the upper hand. For every mod you put on a TLC, i can easily use the same $$ to mod my G. Stock vs. stock, G-wagen is better off-road...not by much, but better (see some reasons above).
Thanks...i don't mean to flame the thread...but i just want to defend the G-wagen a little.
TLC is a great performer on-road and off-road. I almost bought one...decided against it because i want something different...and unique. 2005 is the last year of civilian G-wagens. After this year, only the military version will continue (until 2025). US and world will get an "off-road" version of the new M-class (POS!).
Defending the G-wagen:
1. As most off-roaders know, solid axles provide constant ground clearance vs. IFS. No matter the terrain, solid axles maintain the same ground clearance. The same cannot be said about IFS. I am sure you guys have argued this to death.
2. If you care to look under the G-wagen, then you will see that the differential pumpkins are offset to the passenger side (both front and rear)...like Land Rovers. (This is similar to your TLC rear axle BTW.) So, if you were to go over a big rock, requiring lots of ground clearance, then you can easily line the G-wagen up so that the rock goes under the driver's side (opposite side to pumpkins). Driver's side ground clearance is close to 11". When you add in good approach/breakover/departure angles (all better than stock TLC), the G-wagen is quite capable for stock.
3. Largest tire size for a stock G-wagen is 285/65/18, which is 33". No rubbing at all. I know a few owners who have BFG AT KO in this size on their stock G.
4. G-wagen has no rear anti-roll bar. It does have a thick front bar.
5. Have you seen the frame of the G-wagen?? It's so simple, yet so strong. Civilian and military G-wagens are built on the same assembly line. Military versions are not much different from civilian models...uses the same frame and suspension.
6. Lockers...all gear-based. The axles are made for the lockers from factory. Since 1980, there has not been a G-wagen without lockers from factory. And when you don't lock the lockers, i still have ATRAC (4-wheel tractoin control), like the TLC. So, i can wheel like you guys or i can lock the lockers.
I highly respect TLC/LX platform...you can see my responses on ClubLexus.com (I am tigmd99 over there) and my own forum (www.t4r.org). My brother loves his LX...it is far superior to my G-wagen on-road and cargo space. But, when it comes to off-road, G-wagen has the upper hand. For every mod you put on a TLC, i can easily use the same $$ to mod my G. Stock vs. stock, G-wagen is better off-road...not by much, but better (see some reasons above).
Thanks...i don't mean to flame the thread...but i just want to defend the G-wagen a little.
Thanks for sharing your experiences Thai.
At the end of the day, these vehicles are both huge investments. So if you want your 100 to have lockers, spend another $2,500 and install them.
I would still take the G because it is unique. I have a soft spot for boxy safari vehicles
At the end of the day, these vehicles are both huge investments. So if you want your 100 to have lockers, spend another $2,500 and install them.
I would still take the G because it is unique. I have a soft spot for boxy safari vehicles
Back to TLC vs. Egg:
1. TLC has excellent underbody protection...everything is tucked up nicely (superior to even 4runners and Sequoia). The T-egg has what-looks like plastic skidplates...all look very flimsy.
2. Rack-and-pinion on the TLC is tucked up high into the body...away from rocks. I know of only two SUVs that have R&P tucked up high, TLC and current Range Rover.
3. Since the T-egg's rear locker is optional, you cannot count this into the comparison. If you do, then you should also count in ARB locker for the TLC, which is available from what i hear. A few 4runner owners have done this!
4. The Rear locker on the T-egg is CLUTCH-based. Clutch-based designs tend to wear quickly if you often. Gear-based lockers (ARB for example) last a long long time with little maintenance.
5. As previously noted, T-egg has no articulation whatsoever...it's a car suspension. Articulation gets even worst as you increase the height on the air suspension! T-egg lacks the cross-linking shocks on the Range Rover. The suspension arms on the T-egg are too short...that may be the reason why VW did not go with cross-linking shocks because they won't do much.
6. For practical reasons, i hate the new trend towards bling-bling 18" or 20" rims! With the TLC, at least, you know that a 16" rim will still fit over the brakes for more tire choices (esp. when you want AT or MT tires). TLC still has very good braking distance for a car of it's size.
7. TLC (unloaded) can climb 45 degree slope and 45 degree side slope. T-egg can't match this. (Note: for those off-road newbies, 45 degree slope = 100%)
8. Frame is better than unibody for off-road abuse. TLC has one of the strongest frame in the business. Back in 1998, TLC had the strongest frame of any production SUVs in the world. Toyota built the TLC100 as best as they could...they priced it afterwards (not before)...it was to represent Toyota's SUV heritage.
With a unibody, after a few off-roading trips, you gonna hear creaks and groans from the body. The unibody is absorbing all that punishment and flexing is NOT a good thing for unibodies (no matter how strong they are). Yes, these newer unibody SUVs have subframes, but they are not nearly as strong as a fully boxed frame running from nose to tail. My brother's LX470 is still in top condition, just like when he bought it in 2001.
9. Air suspension fails...when you least expect it. Just ask the Range Rover crowd...yes, even the new Range Rover's air suspension is susceptible (just go to their forum). I hate to be in "limp-home mode" (aka suspension lowering to lowest setting) while going over rocks!! LX470's suspension is shock-based...they still have regular steel springs (and torsion bar in front). If it fails, then you will not be sooooo screwed. In addition, i have not heard of any prpblems with the LX's system.
10. Heritage...Toyota knows how to build SUVs and trucks...and they build them well all over the world!! Durable. Reliable. VW cannot match this...and from reading VW forums, VW has a lot to learn! Hell, they can't even build reliable on-rad cars, much less SUVs with off-roading capability!
My opinion.
1. TLC has excellent underbody protection...everything is tucked up nicely (superior to even 4runners and Sequoia). The T-egg has what-looks like plastic skidplates...all look very flimsy.
2. Rack-and-pinion on the TLC is tucked up high into the body...away from rocks. I know of only two SUVs that have R&P tucked up high, TLC and current Range Rover.
3. Since the T-egg's rear locker is optional, you cannot count this into the comparison. If you do, then you should also count in ARB locker for the TLC, which is available from what i hear. A few 4runner owners have done this!
4. The Rear locker on the T-egg is CLUTCH-based. Clutch-based designs tend to wear quickly if you often. Gear-based lockers (ARB for example) last a long long time with little maintenance.
5. As previously noted, T-egg has no articulation whatsoever...it's a car suspension. Articulation gets even worst as you increase the height on the air suspension! T-egg lacks the cross-linking shocks on the Range Rover. The suspension arms on the T-egg are too short...that may be the reason why VW did not go with cross-linking shocks because they won't do much.
6. For practical reasons, i hate the new trend towards bling-bling 18" or 20" rims! With the TLC, at least, you know that a 16" rim will still fit over the brakes for more tire choices (esp. when you want AT or MT tires). TLC still has very good braking distance for a car of it's size.
7. TLC (unloaded) can climb 45 degree slope and 45 degree side slope. T-egg can't match this. (Note: for those off-road newbies, 45 degree slope = 100%)
8. Frame is better than unibody for off-road abuse. TLC has one of the strongest frame in the business. Back in 1998, TLC had the strongest frame of any production SUVs in the world. Toyota built the TLC100 as best as they could...they priced it afterwards (not before)...it was to represent Toyota's SUV heritage.
With a unibody, after a few off-roading trips, you gonna hear creaks and groans from the body. The unibody is absorbing all that punishment and flexing is NOT a good thing for unibodies (no matter how strong they are). Yes, these newer unibody SUVs have subframes, but they are not nearly as strong as a fully boxed frame running from nose to tail. My brother's LX470 is still in top condition, just like when he bought it in 2001.
9. Air suspension fails...when you least expect it. Just ask the Range Rover crowd...yes, even the new Range Rover's air suspension is susceptible (just go to their forum). I hate to be in "limp-home mode" (aka suspension lowering to lowest setting) while going over rocks!! LX470's suspension is shock-based...they still have regular steel springs (and torsion bar in front). If it fails, then you will not be sooooo screwed. In addition, i have not heard of any prpblems with the LX's system.
10. Heritage...Toyota knows how to build SUVs and trucks...and they build them well all over the world!! Durable. Reliable. VW cannot match this...and from reading VW forums, VW has a lot to learn! Hell, they can't even build reliable on-rad cars, much less SUVs with off-roading capability!
My opinion.
Thanks Thai! Finally, some logical reasoning on this thread, not just emotional "my truck is better than your's" dogma!
I don't even own a Gelandewagen, but do have a healthy respect for the platform. Here's a few other interesting tidbits about it (non-technical, as the technical stuff has been covered by Thai):
1.) Originally built as a military truck, not for civilians. Every G-Wagon from 1975 until now has been handbuilt on the same assembly line at Steyr. Primary user-base is still the military, i.e. it is a TOUGH truck designed for real-world abuse, driving over rubble and rocks and tree stumps while being shot at by small arms or RPGs and used by possibly very poorly trained drivers and mechanics.
2.) Recently adopted by USMC Force Reconnaissance (think special operations, like Navy SEALs) as their Fast Attack Vehicle. These guys are real shooters and operators who know their equipment.
BTW, some people on this board are always spouting off about how the mighty V8 Cruiser will kill even a supercharged 1FZ-FE off the line. Our 2004 LC does the 0-60 in about 9 seconds. The G500 smokes it at 7.8. If only it had a third row seat and cost $20K less...
I don't even own a Gelandewagen, but do have a healthy respect for the platform. Here's a few other interesting tidbits about it (non-technical, as the technical stuff has been covered by Thai):
1.) Originally built as a military truck, not for civilians. Every G-Wagon from 1975 until now has been handbuilt on the same assembly line at Steyr. Primary user-base is still the military, i.e. it is a TOUGH truck designed for real-world abuse, driving over rubble and rocks and tree stumps while being shot at by small arms or RPGs and used by possibly very poorly trained drivers and mechanics.
2.) Recently adopted by USMC Force Reconnaissance (think special operations, like Navy SEALs) as their Fast Attack Vehicle. These guys are real shooters and operators who know their equipment.
BTW, some people on this board are always spouting off about how the mighty V8 Cruiser will kill even a supercharged 1FZ-FE off the line. Our 2004 LC does the 0-60 in about 9 seconds. The G500 smokes it at 7.8. If only it had a third row seat and cost $20K less...
hoser
SILVER Star
My buddy has a AMG G55. Supercharged V8. 476hp 516 ft lbs torque. 0-60 in 5.5 sec according to AMG.
Also noticed a "stock" 100 has 9.8 inches of ground clearance vs. 11.8 for a turdegg. 
Any no more bad post. We are all in this together. Somebody will eventually take me seriously a cuse me out.
Any no more bad post. We are all in this together. Somebody will eventually take me seriously a cuse me out.
hoser
SILVER Star
archie said:
Here's some pics. Most notibly, check out the mobile garage. How many of us wouldn't kill for that?
http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publish/volkswagen_news/article_1157.shtml
dclee said:Our 2004 LC does the 0-60 in about 9 seconds. The G500 smokes it at 7.8. If only it had a third row seat and cost $20K less...
Well, if you guys get the VVTi 4.7L V8 engine next year, then it will be a much closer race.
As for the price of G-wagen, at least, i did not buy it before 2002 when Europa was charging $135,000 for one!! I don't feel so screwed now...
Thai said:
Waiting for Christo's turbo myself, if he ever gets it CARB'd.
FirstToy said:
FirstToy, you're here too! Cool. Well, needless to say, i disagree with your statements. Can you be more specific with your statements??
Build Quality: where? Compare to what?? Is it the materials used?? You know that it's made for military service...so it statisfies all military requirements. In addition, despite being a 1979 design, it passes ALL of Mercedes crash tests, which are stricter than government's. I admit that the 2002 G-wagens suffer from electronic gremlins (like all MB). Fortunately, this has all been fixed by MB, starting in late '03. So, the newer G's should be very reliable.
Cramped?? Well, have you seen the measurements inside?? The ONLY thing the G-wagen lacks is width (thus hiproom for 3 people in the back), which is a good thing in off-roading. Compare the G-wagen to your 4runner in specs on the inside...you will be surprise!!
Bling?? Where is the bling?? Alright, maybe the spare tire cover has a metal rim. Don't be angry because celebs like it...don't look down on the G because of that. Hummer H1 is the same way. Sorry, but it's not the car's fault.
Money value?? Well, it costs about $77K. It's literally handmade (for good or bad). It is built for military service. It's running gear is heavy duty...just look at the suspension arms...SOLID rod of steel (not tubes or stamped steel). The axles are between Dana 44 and Dana 60 in size.
The frame is fully boxed. There are six crossmember TUBES (not stamped steel) that are welded through and through both sides of the frame (not only to one side as in most SUVs)...all six crosstubes are welded the same way. Basically, it is about as strong as can be. The frame and cross-tubes are filled with wax for corrosion resistance. See pics below.
All breather tubes (front & rear diff, transfer case) are all routed to the top of the engine bay from factory. A very nice feature that you don't see in most other SUVs.
The metal on the G-wagen is thicker than production cars/SUVs because of military use. The construction of the doors are ultra-HD...just take a look at the hinges (old-fashion, but strong).
As for the small things, take a look at the interior. Old design...so it may not look as endearing initally. However, the materials used are first-rate...you would not find one hard surface in the whole interior, even the cargo area!!
Technology?? Well, i have all the technology of ANY Lexus or Toyota, including stability control, brake assist, 4-channel ABS, etc.. And, of course, i have lockers. When i lock 'em, all the electronic nannies shut off, including ABS. And if you off-road enough, then you will know that ABS is NOT always a good thing in off-roading. That is why TLC/LX has a specific program to decrease ABS effects in off-roading. Downhill Assist and HAC on your 4runner can easily be done with proper off-roading techniques.
I would bet that ANY off-roader will find the 4wd system on the G-wagen to be perfect. You have the best of both worlds...stability on-road and capability off-road. Name me another 4wd vehicle that offers the same flexibility. I can't think of any. Can you??
Is it overpriced?? Maybe...until you look at the details.
Here are some pics of the frame of the G-wagen:
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Trollhole said:Also noticed a "stock" 100 has 9.8 inches of ground clearance vs. 11.8 for a turdegg.
Any no more bad post. We are all in this together. Somebody will eventually take me seriously a cuse me out.
I'm not sayin' crap cause I don't want to be banned from your future BBQ's Marshall!
Hopefully I can make it up your way in the near future and we can throw my pink panty mobile around a little.
I will throw this in for clarification, Touaregs have 8.3" normal and 11.8 on high (if equiped with optional air susp) while my '99 pink panty mobile had (before 33's) 9.8 on normal, 11.8" on high and 12.4" on X-High (standard air susp. on pink panty mobiles). I still maintain that neither vehicle is going to crush the other offroad.
BTW, hey thai (tabraha on clublex as well)
-T
Thai said:
I think I was pretty specific. My opinion hasn't changed my time in it- underwhelming.
I would take my 4Runner or an 80 or 100 over it anyday w/o a second thought. In fact a 1/2 dozen built-up 80's I've seen are alot more impressive than that gwagen.
I guess you can try winning the webwheeling battle tho... but that's Shotts arena not mine so PM him about it, not me.
FirstToy said:
I am interested in specifics here. Why would you take your 4runner over the G-Class? Do you think the 4Runner is better off-highway? Has better aftermarket support? Has better highway performance, handling, etc.? Reliability is a major concern for you and that is the reason for the comment? Appearance?
I am not trying to argue with you, just better understand your opinion. I am looking to purchase a new vehicle at the end of the year and the G-Class is a model I am considering.
In my time training new SUV owners for AZ State Parks, I had several 4runners and even a few G-class, Range Rovers and T-reggs. In stock form there was very little advantage to any. I will say that the G-class was the most capable of all of them on the trail we used, which included several optional challenges.
The 4runners did have notable ground clearance issues at the fuel tanks. They hang down much lower on the newer models. They also do not have any lockers (other than CDL) available from the factory.
You made your comments with considerable conviction. Please provide some supporting arguments. "impressive" can be interpreted in many ways.
FirstToy said:
Why do these threads always degrade to personal attacks?
Shotts gets off-highway at least 20-30 days out of the year. His business and professional successes is what allows him to "web wheel" and be on the trail as often as he is....
I feel that Thai was pretty empirical in his comments, and tried to have an intelligent discussion. That is to the benefit of all here!
Pskhaat
Tourer
You and my wife!
FirstToy said:
Hmm...you take a "built-up" 80's over G-wagen. Hell, I would too if it's built-up well...but aren't we talking stock vs. stock vehicles?? But, wait, can i modify my G-wagen too?? Wouldn't that be FAIR??!!
And what does celebs driving G-wagens have to do with it's capability??!!
Can you give me specifics on your findings?? Tell me more about your wonderful 4runner. If you want to talk trash, then I certainly hope that you have ARB lockers in front AND rear. You never answered back on what i said above. How's the interior dimensions on your 4runner vs. G-wagen?? Cat got your tongue??!! Tell me more about your findings. If not, then your "convictions" are full of it.
Let's have an intelligent argument here...not this trash talking and then run & hide BS.
BTW, are you still on my forum or did I ban you??
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FirstToy said:
Impressive how? Dude, I love you from NorCal 80s, but I guess I just need a few more specifics as to how a 4Runner or 80 or 100 are better than the G. Is it build quality? Looks? Interior comfort? Reliability? Certainly not off-road ability, as the G will mow over the 4Runner and 100 in stock form (it and them), and probably come in slightly behind the 80 (with factory lockers).
I've said it before, I own both an 80 and a 100 but I'm very leery of putting down as capable a vehicle as a G-Wagon. It certainly has its drawbacks (which is why I don't have one) but I don't see a need to put it down, unless it's maybe to try to justify our own trucks in our own minds. I also don't think just sitting in one is good enough to draw a conclusion as to its abilities, unless, like I said, the only measuring stick is interior comfort. Even Land Rover I have to admit designs excellent vehicles for off-road use. If they could improve build quality and reliability, they'd take the market back from Toyota. But of course, they can't, so they won't.
tabraha said:
I figure that some LX owners would be here...why the hell didn't anyone tell me about this forum earlier??!! My brother ('01 LX470) has been searching forever for a forum like this. He's as happy as a little kid with candy!
I love TLC100...damn Toyota if they screw up the next generation!
Thai said:
This once was DBAG's mantra. Unfortunately, over-engineering had a price, so DBAG started cutting corners to satisfy the bean counters, and now you've got poor quality.
In fact, many people today wonder about the 100 Series in the same way. Why pay $62K+ for a Cruiser when I can get a bigger, more powerful Tahoe for almost half the price? Or even a Sequoia, if I must have Toyota?
The devil is in the details. When people ask me questions like that, I show them the undercarriage, and point out the design details and construction that goes into it. For example, on the 80, I point out the massive control arms. The shock mounts that are up high enough to protect them from most rocks. The same side offset pumpkins. Etc. Same could be said of the G, which is probably why I like it!
