Touareg vs LC

[expeditionswest]

G, 100, 80, 60, 4-runner, I'm dizzy. You thread hijackers you. ;p

Next you will start saying a 100 is better than a 40.

The 100 (or G for that matter) will never be cooler than a clean FJ40, thats for sure!

I think the only vehicle that brings more of a sparkle to my eye is a BJ70

 

[FineWynsFJ40]

G Wagons are freakin' sweet!! I can't imagine a Mercedes bouncing around on a trail, but when I checked a G out at the Detroit Auto Show, that thing was B U I L T!!! If it didn't cost $99,000 I would so definitely look into one...

No, you're wrong: BJ75 Troopie!!

 

[Thai]

G Wagons are freakin' sweet!! I can't imagine a Mercedes bouncing around on a trail, but when I checked a G out at the Detroit Auto Show, that thing was B U I L T!!! If it didn't cost $99,000 I would so definitely look into one...

No, you're wrong: BJ75 Troopie!!

You were probably looking at the AMG version of the G-wagen. G500's cost around $77K. I got mine around $72K, which was about $1K below invoice.

 

[dclee]

Can a TLC80 match all this, even with aftermarket upgrades?? I don't know...and for how much?? Safety electronics, stronger frame, V8 engine, etc. are nearly impossible to upgrade, unless you put out serious cash! Remember, you can't just use the $$ to upgrade the off-roading aspect of TLC80...you have to make it into a more complete vehicle to match the G.

OK, I can say after having driven both (not just a test drive, my uncle has one, though he hasn't allowed me to take it offroad yet...). But you have to compare apples to apples. A factory new 80 will drive as well onroad or better than a G. Off road, I still give a slight edge to the 80 in factory form IF it has the optional factory difflocks. Most 80s that you will see nowadays have been beat on and may not seem as tight as your G was when new. I can say, however, that when I bought our 80 at 125K miles, it was as tight, solid, and free of rattles as any of the newer 80s I had driven. Road comfort in the 80 is better than the G, though that may have had something to do with suspension tuning (Toyota is notoriously soft from the factory) and larger aspect ratio tires. I like the 80 interior better. Much better ergonomics. No wood, but who cares? Frame strength? C'mon, I know the G has a stout frame, but so does the 80. This is a wash IMHO. Driveline components on the 80 (from my eyeball) are beefier than the G. But I will concede that it does not have the more modern safety electronics. Engine is not quite as powerful, but a turbo can take care of that easily, and it will last longer than that crappy three-plug single overhead cam V8 that Mercedes is now pawning on people (I have heard that they have recently gone back to the older four-plug twin-cam design, what took them so long?). So no, I disagree that you have to do anything to make an 80 a more complete vehicle to compete with the G. It already does fine just as it is, thank you very much.

IMHO, if Toyota still made 80s new from the factory for the U.S., and I could get one with the lockers, traction control, and side airbags, I would take it over the G, despite everything I said earlier about how much I respect and like the G (which I do). Then I'd take the $30K I saved and spend $12K of it to buy a used 80, and spend the remaining $18K to turn it into a rock buggy like Drexx is doing.

Of course, an Oz-spec 105 has the best of all worlds...

 

[calamaridog]

Thai,

I see your running some huge 30.5" tires on the G-Wagon What size can you clear on the stock suspension?

How much would it cost to regear? Or does anyone make lower gears? I would think they are available for military applications.

 

[Thai]

How is the TLC80 superior to G in off-road?? Power department?? Crawl ratio?? Angles?? Size??

Come on, TLC100 has a far superior frame than TLC80...even Toyota concedes that! What was it...like 50% increase in torsional strength in the TLC100 over TLC80 frame! I would not even put TLC80 frame in the same class as TLC100 or G-wagen's. The G-wagen frame is built for military service...the frame has to be overengineered to withstand the different military configurations (e.g. heavy armor G's).

Road comfort?? Two of the biggest problems with TLC80 were highway noise and performance...both were fixed with TLX100. What was it...a constant droning on the highway from the body?? The 4.5L I6 was just overwhelmed by weight. A turbo?? Oh yeah, that's gonna suck in off-roading! You should know that! When was the last time you heard anyone putting a turbo in their off-roading truck??!! The turbo lag will kill you in off-roading, along with non-linear power delivery! A supercharger...maybe. Turbo...that's a joke. Turbos belong on cars, not gasoline trucks. I would highly recommend against a turbo. It's your truck. The G-wagen is quite civilized on the highway. I would even bet that the windnoise/roadnoise is less in the G, despite the boxy design.

And you're saying that the running gears on a TLC80 is superior to G-wagen?? Are you kidding me?! You need to read up on the G-wagen's running gears before trusting your eyeballs. See my argument above about frame strength...military vs. civilian. Hummer H1 vs. Hummer H2. Big difference.

What does DOHC vs. SOHC have to do with durability?? Last time i checked, the G500 engine can make 292 HP and 336 Torque...still quite a bit more than ANY Toyota truck DOHC engines. Actually, my engine STILL makes more than Toyota's new 4.7L V8 with VVTi in the new 4runners!

And you think your little turbo max-sized six cylinder engine going to outlast a NA V8 engine???!!! Are you really kidding me?!! Come on. And my "crappy" NA V8 3-plug engine will pass emission tests in all states...can yours???

BTW, according to a few magazines, G500 engine has the flatest torque curve when compared with BMW 4.4L V8 (Range Rover) and Lexus 4.7L V8 (LX470).
Not too shabby is it??

Like i said earlier, i do NOT want this to become a TLC vs. G-wagen thread. But, you guys keep on disrespecting it. I need to insult the Touareg more!

Thai.

 

[Thai]

Thai,

I see your running some huge 30.5" tires on the G-Wagon What size can you clear on the stock suspension?

How much would it cost to regear? Or does anyone make lower gears? I would think they are available for military applications.

I want to keep everything close to stock. I do not want to kill durability by putting on redneck-sized swampers! I don't plan on conquering the Rubicon trail anytime soon. Remember, it's my daily driver. However, i do want it to be capable enough for Utah and Colorado. I have pics of Colorado trip if you want to see them.

The largest tire size the G can run without rubbing is 33". There are regearing stuff on sale...but aftermarket for G is expensive and smaller than for TLC80, especially in the USA.

Actually, if i want to conquer the Rubicon trail, i would buy a Jeep Rubicon. Period.

 

[dclee]

How is the TLC80 superior to G in off-road?? Power department?? Crawl ratio?? Angles?? Size??

Biggest one is articulation. 11+ inches of travel vs. 8. Also develops max torque 1000 RPM sooner. Otherwise, they are very similar. Notice I said SLIGHT edge.

Come on, TLC100 has a far superior frame than TLC80...even Toyota concedes that! What was it...like 50% increase in torsional strength in the TLC100 over TLC80 frame! I would not even put TLC80 frame in the same class as TLC100 or G-wagen's. The G-wagen frame is built for military service...the frame has to be overengineered to withstand the different configurations.

Yes, the 100 does have a stronger frame (according to Toyota). But does the G? My point was, they are so close that you can't make that comparison without a stress analysis or metallurgical analysis or some other analysis. Also, FYI both the 100 AND the 80 are also built for military service and the versions with the 24V electrical system (their diesels) meet all NATO specs. Your G actually does not meet NATO specs without the 24V electricals. There are many countries using Land Cruisers as military vehicles. The UN also uses Land Cruisers.

Road comfort?? Two of the biggest problems with TLC80 were highway noise and performance...both were fixed with TLX100. What was it...a constant droning on the highway from the body?? The 4.5L I6 was just overwhelmed by weight. A turbo?? Oh yeah, that's gonna suck in off-roading! You should know that! When was the last time you heard anyone putting a turbo in their off-roading truck??!! The turbo lag will kill you in off-roading, along with non-linear power delivery! A supercharger...maybe. Turbo...that's a joke. Turbos belong on cars, not gasoline trucks. I would highly recommend against a turbo. It's your truck. The G-wagen is quite civilized on the highway. I would even bet that the windnoise/roadnoise is less in the G, despite the boxy design.

Just curious, have you ever driven an 80 on the freeway? I've driven a G, and it's no quieter, believe me.

And dude, you must not know much about turbo applications in Cruisers. Check out the 80sCool email list archives sometime for discussions on the Safari and other turbo systems developed in Australia for the 1FZ-FE, or talk to 80 experts like Christo Slee on this forum. Let's just say that these are some of the most sought after systems for OFF-ROADING vehicles on the planet. To say these guys don't off-road their vehicles to the extreme is just plain foolish. And lag? I can't speak for the Safari system specifically as I don't have one, but SAAB fixed the lag problem long ago in their cars, and their methods are pretty common in the industry nowadays.

Don't forget, most versions of the G-Wagon in MILITARY use run the 3.0L TURBO diesel engine. Absolutely NO military I can think of runs the V8. Draw your own conclusions.

And you're saying that the running gears on a TLC80 is superior to G-wagen?? Are you kidding me?! You need to read up on the G-wagen's running gears before trusting your eyeballs. See my argument above about frame strength...military vs. civilian. Hummer H1 vs. Hummer H2. Big difference.

I have read up on it. I'm probably one of the most G-informed people on this list. I've seen it and driven it. I like it. But IMHO it's simply not as beefy as a Cruiser underneath. Sorry, those are my observations, and I presented them as such. Notice in my previous post I said "by my eyeball" and did not try to pass it off as fact. If you have actual measurements to back up your claimed facts, please fire away.

See my comments above about military vs. civilian.

What does DOHC vs. SOHC have to do with durability?? Last time i checked, the G500 engine can make 292 HP and 336 Torque...still quite a bit more than ANY Toyota truck DOHC engines. Actually, my engine STILL makes more than Toyota's new 4.7L V8 with VVTi in the new 4runners!

I never said it was because of SOHC vs. DOHC. Anyway what does durability have to do with horsepower? And what does horsepower have to do with off-road ability? The answer to both questions is NOTHING.

Let's just say that I am a fan of the original M119 block V8 motor that Mercedes used in the Sauber C9 to win Le Mans (and 7 of the other 8 races in the World Championship) in 1989. IMHO they killed it when they de-tuned it for emmissions reasons with the three plug unit in 1993. They haven't built one like it since.

And you think your little turbo max-sized six cylinder engine going to outlast a NA V8 engine???!!! Are you really kidding me?!! Come on. And my "crappy" NA V8 3-plug engine will pass emission tests in all states...can yours???

Do you have any idea what the engineering spec is on the 1FZ-FE? Let's put it this way: it is so understressed that it will probably be running just fine long after I'm gone. I don't have a turbo so can't speak to the emmissions comment, but I have been told that the Safari turbo at least is 50-state legal and CARB-certified.

BTW, according to a few magazines, G500 engine has the flatest torque curve when compared with BMW 4.4L V8 (Range Rover) and Lexus 4.7L V8 (LX470).
Not too shabby is it??

Nope, not too shabby at all. And what is your point?

Like i said earlier, i do NOT want this to become a TLC vs. G-wagen thread. But, you guys keep on disrespecting it. I need to insult the Touareg more!

Not disrespecting it, just responding to your comments on the 80. If you'll read my post, you'll see that I do like and respect the G. Hell, I was one of the only people on here defending it against the 100! Man, how soon some people forget...

 

[Jukelemon]

PLEASE

E:

move this s*** off of this forum so it can be had/discussed/critiqued/commented on/re-commented on/hijacked by all and any who either own or do not own a 100 series.

I mean it just gets old-especially the personal attacks and banter about this and that. Do you really think this is beneficial??? I mean really??? Is this going to be a thread that I print and place in my FSM for future reference?

 

[Thai]

Funny...what is the TLC80's crawl ratio?? Now, add in the additional torque of a my V8 engine. You're serious about comparing the torque between your I6 and my V8??!! When does your I6 make maximum torque...and for how long?? Even if you make it 1000 rpm sooner...at that point, i would STILL make more torque!! There is nothing similar about your I6 engine and my V8 engine...V8 is far superior in torque. Oh BTW, i guess you feel that the TLC100 engine is inferior to yours too, right??!! Funny.

Remind me, between your TLC80 and my G, why is articulation the biggest factor?? Oh wait, we have LOCKERS!! So, does that make CRAWL RATIO the most important factor then??!! Ouch! Articulation is very important for vehicles with ATRAC, LSD, or open diff. With a locker, it becomes much less important. You should know that as you are an avid off-roader.

Can i see a picture of TLC80's frame?? Let's compare using our EYEBALLS since this is the preferred method around here.

What does diesel have to do with anything?? Diesel saves gas and is widely available around the world. It's cheaper to maintain. Does your TLC80 have a diesel engine?? No. Hmmm. You do realize that most of the world prefers diesel, right?!! Good try.

Can you show me a TLC80 in military form?? UN uses tacomas and explorers...so, that's not a good thing to mention.

It's a shame that this thread has come to this...i apologize because it's partly my fault. I will end the discussion here. I will respond only to specific questions from now on.

 

[tabraha]

PLEASE

E:

move this s*** off of this forum so it can be had/discussed/critiqued/commented on/re-commented on/hijacked by all and any who either own or do not own a 100 series.

I mean it just gets old-especially the personal attacks and banter about this and that. Do you really think this is beneficial??? I mean really??? Is this going to be a thread that I print and place in my FSM for future reference?

hehehe... hopefully my final advice in this thread:

 

[dclee]

Hey Thai -

To your specific questions, I feel 275 pound feet is plenty in an offroad vehicle. And it gets there sooner. That was my only point. I never said it had more torque. You need to learn to read English more carefully.

Also never said my truck was diesel, though you can get it that way in other countries (like it's military versions). But you were going so far to tout the MILITARY specs of your truck, and I'll repeat there are NO MILITARIES using your truck with the V8. That was my point. How do you respond to that? I see you have no response. I rephrase: BOTH trucks are built to military specs.

Too bad you feel the need to come on a Cruiser board, not contribute anything constructive, and instead start touting the superiority of your Teutonic rig. It's been fun, but at this point I agree with Juke and apologize as well and say there is no longer anything of value out of this thread. Some people just can't be reasoned with when blinded by their own dogma, as I've said before. Oh, and I take back everything good I've said about the G, it really is a poorly built POS like the rest of the current MB lineup.

BTW, here are those pics you asked for.

 

[Thai]

What was the point of bringing up your torque arriving earlier IF it is still inferior to V8's?? Crawl ratio?? Besides articulation (which is NOT very important in a vehicle with lockers at both ends), where is TLC80 superior to G-wagen???? (Dclee, you mentioned this "fact" several times.)

Hmmm, no answer to these questions...i wonder why??!!

Does military spec immediately mean "diesel"?? In English, i meant military specs in terms of frame and suspension components. Clear?

Military uses diesel out of availability and practicality in hostile places. In the USA, we don't even have good quality diesel to supply a diesel engine (see why VW discontinued the VW V10 turbodiesel).

Didn't you comment on my presence here earlier being a positive thing?? Or was that another member?? Oh well. Like i said, i did not come here to be in a battle. As you can see, i am a BIG fan of TLC100...and to a lesser extent, TLC80. Great vehicles...certainly, i won't call them "POS".

Nice pics of Military Police vehicles! BTW, can you PM me with a picture of TLC80 frame?? Seriously, i do want to see a picture. I have a copy of the TLC100's frame...it would complement my collection. Thanks.

Here are military G's:

 

[macneill]

Didn't you comment on my presence here earlier being a positive thing?? Or was that another member?? Oh well. Like i said, i did not come here to be in a battle. As you can see, i am a BIG fan of TLC100...and to a lesser extent, TLC80. Great vehicles...certainly, i won't call them "POS".

Nice G-Pix Thai, but "Geeez" (pun intended) enough already. Enjoy seeing other rigs, but last I checked, this was a LC forum. I don't give a rat's ass about your G-Wagon. It's a company ride for me, SL too. Nice rides, but they ain't a Landcruiser! My .02.

 

[Thai]

they ain't a Landcruiser.

So, are you gonna trade in your TLC for a G-wagen??

 

[Cruiserhead05]

Thai,

I've been reading this whole thread and i truely think its loads of fun.

I'm cruiser to the core but if in werent for them, i know the G would be my choice ride. I know it has been brought up a few times in the thread but i really dont think $$$ is stressed enough. I pulled into town today and parked next to a G55 AMG, beautiful and i love it to death, while i was looking it over this thread came to mind and as i was looking at the 100k+ G55 next to my 94 FZJ80 with 246k miles(Worth about 5-6k) i realized that the G just cant be worth what they price them at, and if they are, there is no way in hell its that much better. I mean seriously, my high mileage 80 is just as reliable and comfort wise, its probably close enough...

My point is, my truck with 3 lockers, SFA could do just as much or more than a G.
For me, its the money that kills it, plus even if i had the loads of cash to drop even on an old 280 GE SWB i would be scared to wheel, no body wants to scratch it up...

Just a thought...nevertheless, i love the G and have alot of respect. I would only like to see more aftermarket stuff available, I.E. lifts, bumpers, etc. b/c even an old 300 would be a cool ride no matter how you cut it.

 

[Snook]

Now, we're even.

Cheers,

 

[Thai]

I could also get a used Jeep Rubicon and do the same as my G-wagen...but that's not really the point.

 

[calamaridog]

Quit making fun of his shizzle! I just saw the blingest "G" Wagon rollin down the fwy with 22" spinners. What a bad ass ride

 

[Cruiserhead05]

Thai,

A Rubicon is a totally different vehicle is a totally different class. Also, if thats not the point then what is? All, im sayin is my 5,000 dollar 80 could easely role with your 75k G500. There is something to be said for it.

Heck i mean if i was gonna spend 75k on cars/trucks i would not go for a G but rather spend 20k on an extremely well built low mileage 80 with a blower that could walk all over a G, spend 20k on a Twin turbo Supra 6-speed for my fast car, and then 35k on a nice lexus LS400.
Whatever, i think this thread needs to end...its goin no where fast. bottom line, G's are sweet but overpriced. i still give you props though, you got a nice truck.