Tinker's latest brutal review of LC250

[Rednexus]

because they were not marketed properly.
they were sold beside 20k corollas in the dealer
we didn't get all the awesome trim packages, and the cheaper versions
we didn't get interesting engine and trans choices
they had the LX570 for the luxury crowd, so we should have gotten the cloth seat, no screens, coil spring, minimal plastic, ready for adventure models.

They still wouldn't have sold very well. US consumers are simply not interested in stripper models, except for a small enthusiast subset. And, out of folks on forums who clamor for such a vehicle, how many would have actually bought a stripper LC200 for $50-60K? I'm guessing 1 out of every 10. It's just not a big market segment.

More LC200 sales would have also drug down Toyota's CAFE ratings, given the abysmal fuel economy, so they had plenty of other reasons for not investing in that platform in the US. Sure...it could have had a 1GR....but then it would have been gutless. Diesel is out of the question due to our emissions standards as well.

Or...everyone can do what I did and buy a used GX. V8...reasonable size (LC200 is too big for wheeling east of the 100th meridian)....proven drivetrain....proven reliabillity......6,500# tow rating.....better MPG than a LC200.......and Lexus luxury. $40K will get you a nice one, and you can spend a lot less (my 2007 cost $10.7K when I bought it in 2020).

 

[onemanarmy]

but...... those good used GXs won't be around forever
we need new versions of that so we can 'always' have a good used supply
so maybe instead of 5k LC 200 sold every year, they sold 10k? Thats not a big lift, and that would have really helped us now. Thats an extra 40k LC200 out there. No one is saying a 'stripper' model with manual windows.....there is a lot of happy middle ground there....lots of meat on the bone......and they already were making them!

oh, i see base 2 door broncos and JKs / JLs around daily. they look pretty sweet and are a great 'cheap' platform to make it your own!

 

[calokie]

Seems like most "Prado Parrots" here on MUD are 200 owners - there's a few of them that are quite passionate. A couple of them must have took it too far and were banned.

To illustrate, this very thread was actually originally posted in the 200 series section. lol. The mods moved it here.

Its funny you say this, I ran across a Prado Parrot yesterday on a LC250 Facebook Page, the dude was relentless and clueless, I found out he had a 200 series so I reminded him how it looks like 1st gen highlander. The 200 and the 1st gen Highlander were cut from the same cloth

 

[calokie]

No, no, no. Apparently only 200 owners can do that with the poor little Prado.

200 Series... aka "1st gen Grand Highlander"

 

[Heckraiser]

As a 200 owner, I can say the 200 is among the ugliest generations of LCs. That mid-late 00's Toyota design language was boring and bloated. Extra-bloated when it comes to the 200. I remember my friend and I scoffing at it when we went to the Denver auto show in 2007. 120 GX s up there too in the ugly totem pole. But both are great vehicles. The LC250 definitely has both or them beat in the looks department, even if it's not exactly my cup of tea either. It's mainly the front bumper "complicatedness" that I take issue with, the rest actually looks pretty good, IMO.

 

[Rednexus]

but...... those good used GXs won't be around forever
we need new versions of that so we can 'always' have a good used supply
so maybe instead of 5k LC 200 sold every year, they sold 10k? Thats not a big lift, and that would have really helped us now. Thats an extra 40k LC200 out there. No one is saying a 'stripper' model with manual windows.....there is a lot of happy middle ground there....lots of meat on the bone......and they already were making them!

oh, i see base 2 door broncos and JKs / JLs around daily. they look pretty sweet and are a great 'cheap' platform to make it your own!

My 2007 is currently 18 years old with 190K on it. It's made numerous long trips from MO out to CO/UT, up to the US/CAN border, and down to the Gulf. Next month, we are taking it to WY and MT. It's still reliable (and easy enough to work on) and there is no reason that it can't be doing that at Year 25+, as long as I keep maintaining it and fixing things as they break.

The GX460 was made until 2023. At this point they are just as reliable and proven as a 470 - meaning a well-cared for 2023 could still be seeing daily adventure duty out until ~2050. At which point I'll well into my 60s and probably be less interested in long-distance adventure touring than I am today (but, hopefully still doing lots of local trips which do require a SUV).

But, to your point, yes it would be nice if my kids have opportunities to buy reliable vehicles that can have a 25+ year service life with routine maintenance/repairs, as opposed to disposable crap that its clapped out by Year 10. Hopefully a GX550 falls into that bucket. We all know that the Jeep and Bronco do not fall into that bucket at all - after wheeling with my buddy's 2014 Rubicon (less miles than my GX), the difference in build quality and reliability get vary apparent as the vehicles age.

 

[rexington14]

This is what US auto manufacturers have to contend with.... the layman that buys based on a rated tow capacity. Manufacturers don't need to adhere to any tow standard, they can rate it what they want. The LX changed tow capacity because Toyota changed the way they rated towing capacity. And the difference between the 200 and the LX570 is because of the AHC suspension and its load capacity. AHC is certainly tuned for comfort but can easily be uprated for more weight.

What a conundrum for Toyota... should they advertise a higher rating and sell more vehicles? There is a competitive war for towing capacity lately amongst manufacturers that didn't exist 15 years ago.

But guess what... in Australia, the 200, 300, 250 (all versions sold there) are rated the same... 3500 kg when equipped with trailer brakes. Same as the 80 and 100. Now what? A rating is a rating, right, Layman?

Yes, the manufacturer's tow rating is absolutely the tow rating.

And for the majority of 200's on the road (given LX570's far outsold LC's), they are only rated to tow 7000 lbs. Are you suggesting this can be exceeded? Sounds like dangerous advice to be giving out on the internet with potential grave repercussions.

If a 7000 lb tow rating makes a LC "full fat / heavy duty"... then an LC 250 isn't too far behind with a tow rating of only 1000 lbs less.

 

[Rednexus]

Yes, the manufacturer's tow rating is absolutely the tow rating.

And for the majority of 200's on the road (given LX570's far outsold LC's), they are only rated to tow 7000 lbs. Are you suggesting this can be exceeded? Sounds like dangerous advice to be giving out on the internet.

If a 7000 lb tow rating makes a LC "full fat / heavy duty"... then an LC 250 isn't too far behind with a tow rating of only 1000 lbs less.

I moved our Family of 4 using a rental enclosed trailer and my GX470. Plenty of tow capacity for that. I was probably at around 5,000# including the trailer and contents. My 470 tows our lightweight camper (4,000# loaded) often, and this fall I'm going to use it to tow our compact utility tractor (probably again in the ~5,000# range with the trailer).

Not sure why anyone would need to tow more than 5,000# on a routine basis with one of these, unless you own a giant boat or an excessively large camper (a camper that weights more than 5,000# would be large enough that I wouldn't want to pull it with a SWB SUV to begin with).

 

[MRego]

200 Series... aka "1st gen Grand Highlander"

View attachment 3931836View attachment 3931837

Yep...They are one and the same.

 

[Jetboy]

There is something real about Toyota's golden ratio and how every one of Toyota's adventure wagons now share the perfect 112.2" wheelbase full fat Land Cruisers have used for

Fwiw - I wish Toyota would give up the golden ratio thing or at least extend to match there body. I don’t find it to be a great wheelbase for the 195 inch body on top. For technical terrain the approach angle is far more important than breakover or departure. A 116-118 wheelbase on a 195" body would be a lot better in the really challenging places. The Wrangler ratio is better. So is every side by side. And a 116 ish wb would be more comfortable on the road. The lc80 was 7 inches shorter body on the same wb and fit better imo. Just push that front axe forward and it'll make everything better.

 

[gasman4u]

View attachment 3931874
Yep...They are one and the same.

Nice yard birds too.

They still wouldn't have sold very well. US consumers are simply not interested in stripper models, except for a small enthusiast subset. And, out of folks on forums who clamor for such a vehicle, how many would have actually bought a stripper LC200 for $50-60K? I'm guessing 1 out of every 10. It's just not a big market segment.

More LC200 sales would have also drug down Toyota's CAFE ratings, given the abysmal fuel economy, so they had plenty of other reasons for not investing in that platform in the US. Sure...it could have had a 1GR....but then it would have been gutless. Diesel is out of the question due to our emissions standards as well.

Or...everyone can do what I did and buy a used GX. V8...reasonable size (LC200 is too big for wheeling east of the 100th meridian)....proven drivetrain....proven reliabillity......6,500# tow rating.....better MPG than a LC200.......and Lexus luxury. $40K will get you a nice one, and you can spend a lot less (my 2007 cost $10.7K when I bought it in 2020).

As much as I want a new 70, I don’t know if their diesel would have the @ss needed to get to highway speeds in the US. CAFE or not, if she didn’t have the needed HP - it’d be a no go for me. I bought my 200 without so much as a test drive knowing it was the last gasp of this series. I hope by the time it needs to be replaced, there is a viable alternative out there.

 

[2021 LC200]

As a 200 owner, I can say the 200 is among the ugliest generations of LCs. That mid-late 00's Toyota design language was boring and bloated. Extra-bloated when it comes to the 200. I remember my friend and I scoffing at it when we went to the Denver auto show in 2007. 120 GX s up there too in the ugly totem pole. But both are great vehicles. The LC250 definitely has both or them beat in the looks department, even if it's not exactly my cup of tea either. It's mainly the front bumper "complicatedness" that I take issue with, the rest actually looks pretty good, IMO.

Interesting points yet it is all about taste. I find the 200 series together with the 80 series the best looking Land Cruisers and very much like the High Lander from that period as well. It does not try hard, looks timeless yet functional and will be loved for decades to come.

As to bloated, I also like that part of the 80 and 200 series looks and interesting enough 200 and 250 have similar outer dimensions yet inside the 200 has more room, both width and length including a much better space and seating position in the second row. Perfect how they used the outer round form to add inside space. Amazing how a new design uses the space/footprint so poorly.

Regarding 250 looks, it is boxy and tries too hard and very much reminds me of the failed boxy 2008 to 2012 Jeep Liberty. Then when you sit inside, close doors and drive it all feels RAV4 cheap and plastic and 4 banger noise coming on and off at odd times with the combined hybrid tech. I really do not get why somebody would not buy a 2016+ LX570 or LC200 with say 100k miles on it and drive it to 350k or so instead of getting a new (or newer) 250 at similar pricing.

Data as to dimensions. The 200 seires is 1.77 inch taller and 2.66 inch longer

Yet the same width thanks to the 250 fenders sticking out

 

[Rednexus]

Nice yard birds too.


As much as I want a new 70, I don’t know if their diesel would have the @ss needed to get to highway speeds in the US. CAFE or not, if she didn’t have the needed HP - it’d be a no go for me. I bought my 200 without so much as a test drive knowing it was the last gasp of this series. I hope by the time it needs to be replaced, there is a viable alternative out there.

Even if the diesel had the @ss, there is no way it would meet USEPA emissions regulations without strangling it in a spiderweb of emissions controls, and it would probably need to use DEF as well. You should go to a Ford dealer and pop the hood on a new Powerstroke to see what I mean .

Such a Toyota diesel would be expensive and unreliable. USEPA emissions regulations for diesels also require them to gradually cut power if a CEL is thrown, basically providing you with an expensive brick until it can be towed to a shop and troubleshooted via laptop. You'd probably like the fuel economy of a hypothetical USDM Diesel 70, but hate it the first time it bricks on you (a rental Isuzu Fuso box truck bricked on me 10+ years ago - leaving me to limp down the interstate until I got to a dealer - who spent 30 minutes on a laptop to figure out it was a loose sensor connection). If you are remote touring in this hypothetical USDM 70 when it bricks, you'd be really screwed.

These USPEA diesel regulations go all of the way down to 25 horsepower diesel engines. And are why I have a 24.7 horsepower diesel tractor that has nothing more than an EGR system on it. Once you exceed 25 horsepower you get DPFs and onboard computers that will shut you down for a regen cycle.

 

[rexington14]

Even if the diesel had the @ss, there is no way it would meet USEPA emissions regulations without strangling it in a spiderweb of emissions controls, and it would probably need to use DEF as well. You should go to a Ford dealer and pop the hood on a new Powerstroke to see what I mean .

Such a Toyota diesel would be expensive and unreliable. USEPA emissions regulations for diesels also require them to gradually cut power if a CEL is thrown, basically providing you with an expensive brick until it can be towed to a shop and troubleshooted via laptop. You'd probably like the fuel economy of a hypothetical USDM Diesel 70, but hate it the first time it bricks on you (a rental Isuzu Fuso box truck bricked on me 10+ years ago - leaving me to limp down the interstate until I got to a dealer - who spent 30 minutes on a laptop to figure out it was a loose sensor connection). If you are remote touring in this hypothetical USDM 70 when it bricks, you'd be really screwed.

These USPEA diesel regulations go all of the way down to 25 horsepower diesel engines. And are why I have a 24.7 horsepower diesel tractor that has nothing more than an EGR system on it. Once you exceed 25 horsepower you get DPFs and onboard computers that will shut you down for a regen cycle.

Few actually buy diesels. By now, they know better. I wonder what the take rate is on a GM Duramax 3.0 compared to the 6.2 V8 - even with all of the 6.2's known issues. And in the case of the Duramax specifically most will probably end up dumping it before it's time to change the oil pump belt (150-200k miles). If it even lasts that long.

 

[Noctilucent]

I'm so glad The National Order of the Two-Hundo arrived, I started feeling good about my 250 LC, glad that's been stomped out and now I rightfully feel bad for not going with a 200 instead. Good! I can't wait to someday be apart of that movement.

 

[2021 LC200]

I agree diesels now are (to) complex with the DPF filter and NOx cats and related regens at very high temperatures with fuel dilution challenge as a by product affecting engine & turbo longevity, as well as the delicate adblue urea metering valve system.

This is not just a US EPA emissions thing although litigation and any issues is a nightmare in the US. In most of Europe and Australia emission standards are the same (e.g. Euro 6, ADR aligned with Euro 6) and folk experience ownership challenges as described by Rednexus and worse.

Unfortunately diesels are therefore no longer the reliable workhorse engines they used to be. Interesting enough I understand Bosch has already developed even higher pressure injectors which could eliminate the need for the DPF filter, however that probably makes the HPFP even more challenging.

All in all in 2025 I rather buy a vehicle with a petrol/gas engine unless I would tow big > 15k lbs loads all the time and get a F250 or similar.

 

[Rednexus]

Few actually buy diesels. By now, they know better. I wonder what the take rate is on a GM Duramax 3.0 compared to the 6.2 V8 - even with all of the 6.2's known issues. And in the case of the Duramax specifically most will probably end up dumping it before it's time to change the oil pump belt (150-200k miles). If it even lasts that long.

It's really a shame they've been de-facto banned in light duty applications in the US. My little Yanmar 3-cylinder diesel (1.6 liters and naturally aspirated) will go months on a 10-gallon tank of fuel, and has no problem - while idling - pulling my 3,600-lb tractor with a 900-lb bucket load of gravel and a 500-lb box blade on the back up steep hills on my property. I never really "got" why people liked simple diesel engines so much until I owned one.

 

[Hornd]

The 250 is the New FJ Cruiser.

The GX is the New Cruiser.

If you do not see it then you are Staring too Closely at the Badges.

I'm over Here with a GX470 (Baby LC) and 80 Series (Real Deal) eating Popcorn.

 

[2021 LC200]

When you consider capability;

The 250 is a Land Cruiser Prado and sits beside the new 4 Runner.

The GX550 as before is the Lexus version of the Prado

The LX600 and more so the LX700h Overtrail is the return of the Land Cruiser in the US. Considering inflation that is also about right compared to the LX570 and LC200.

I get though some or even many people want the 250 Prado.

You may need to get more popcorn…

 

[Noctilucent]

Well daggum, looks like days Two-Hundresit gatekeepers done rolled in. Reckon they ain’t lettin’ none of them light-duty Land Cruisers get through.