Josh’s Cars of Japan reviews the LC250 (1 Viewer)

[Jetboy]

Well, I do not know how they measured but the dimensions I provided and the internal pictures and having sat in both are pretty clear. So you still insist the 4 Runner is the same size as the 200 including the important interior dimensions? Just the 200 being taller and the height of the seating surface from the ground makes a big difference. The 4 Runner is awkward low in my experience driving several AVIS rentals over the years.

Oh well, I guess another time I am happy to agree to disagree. Happy Tundra driving dude.

I think they're close enough to be functionally the same. If I get a chance at some point I'll 3d scan the interior of both and overlay them. Anyone with an iPhone Pro could do it if you have both in the driveway. Should be able to easily calculate the volume that way too. At the end of the day - it doesn't matter which one is slightly bigger or smaller. The LC200 wasn't a value proposition that enough people wanted to keep selling. I don't think it has anything to do with promotion of the product or customer education. It just wasn't competitive at the asking price. I suspect the LC200 would have failed to thrive even without the 4Runner existing. But the 4R sure didn't help. A V8 4runner would probably have killed it before the 2016 refresh. But the destiny was the same either way.

I will enjoy the tundra! It's about as boring as Toyota appliances get. But it takes me to the places most Land Cruiser's sleep in their suburban garage at night dream of going.

As far as the video about driving like a land cruiser - I think that's more of a comment on the GA-F architecture and electric power steering than it is about the LC250 vs 300. The feel of the driving is set by Toyota software. Steering feedback, pedal response, shifting, brake pressures, shock valving - those are all functions of choices of software and shock valving/spring rates. No amount of additional money would change it. It's not about being built to a budget. The feel is what Toyota wants it to feel like.

 

[Zill]

I think they're close enough to be functionally the same. If I get a chance at some point I'll 3d scan the interior of both and overlay them. Anyone with an iPhone Pro could do it if you have both in the driveway. Should be able to easily calculate the volume that way too. At the end of the day - it doesn't matter which one is slightly bigger or smaller. The LC200 wasn't a value proposition that enough people wanted to keep selling. I don't think it has anything to do with promotion of the product or customer education. It just wasn't competitive at the asking price. I suspect the LC200 would have failed to thrive even without the 4Runner existing. But the 4R sure didn't help. A V8 4runner would probably have killed it before the 2016 refresh. But the destiny was the same either way.

I will enjoy the tundra! It's about as boring as Toyota appliances get. But it takes me to the places most Land Cruiser's sleep in their suburban garage at night dream of going.
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As far as the video about driving like a land cruiser - I think that's more of a comment on the GA-F architecture and electric power steering than it is about the LC250 vs 300. The feel of the driving is set by Toyota software. Steering feedback, pedal response, shifting, brake pressures, shock valving - those are all functions of choices of software and shock valving/spring rates. No amount of additional money would change it. It's not about being built to a budget. The feel is what Toyota wants it to feel like.

I own a 2.5 gen Tundra, LC 200, and LC 250, and by far the Tundra is the worst driving and the cheapest feeling of the bunch. If it didn’t have a bed on it, it wouldn’t be in my driveway, and another Land Cruiser would be in its place. The Land Cruiser is better in almost every aspect except for being able to put dirty items in a truck bed. LC’s are just built different, and unless you actually drive land cruisers on a day to day basis, it’s hard to justify the price difference, but you will understand why they are held on such a high pedestal when you do. It’s the small things in a Land Cruiser which set them apart such as the drum tight construction and solid feel on the road. Also, have you seen how many bolts there are that hold on the metal shield to the transfer case in the LC 200? That design philosophy is built throughout every component on those trucks, and no other manufacturer offers that.

 

[Jetboy]

I own a 2.5 gen Tundra, LC 200, and LC 250, and by far the Tundra is the worst driving and the cheapest feeling of the bunch. If it didn’t have a bed on it, it wouldn’t be in my driveway, and another Land Cruiser would be in its place. The Land Cruiser is better in almost every aspect except for being able to put dirty items in a truck bed. LC’s are just built different, and unless you actually drive land cruisers on a day to day basis, it’s hard to justify the price difference, but you will understand why they are held on such a high pedestal when you do. It’s the small things in a Land Cruiser which set them apart such as the drum tight construction and solid feel on the road. Also, have you seen how many bolts there are that hold on the metal shield to the transfer case in the LC 200? That design philosophy is built throughout every component on those trucks, and no other manufacturer offers that.

That metal shield is not falling off! That's a common problem on Tundras. I feel like I'm constantly underneath either replacing that damn dust shield or re-torqueing the bolts. I'm just driving around an all of the sudden - rattles and I know it's he shield again. Would be cool if Toyota replaced a few of those bolts with a quality radiator. Can't win em all I guess.

 

[jmdaniel]

I will enjoy the tundra! It's about as boring as Toyota appliances get. But it takes me to the places most Land Cruiser's sleep in their suburban garage at night dream of going.

I like my '18 Tundra as well, with a few mods that I added after purchase.

• OEM+ speaker and sub set.
• Pedal Commander
• Noise deadening material in doors and back panel. This was amazing, and frankly, relatively inexpensive to get knocked out on a weekend. A picture of the material Toyota put in originally tells the story.

 

[185]

No one has ever confirmed this from official channels, but part of the folklore of the landcruiser series has been its supposed 25 year duty cycle. Starting at the prices the lc200 did, one could rationalize (not substantiate i'd like to emphasize) that this was somewhat true, where as other products did not have a price point nor program budget that indicated they had similar duty cycles built into the program.

These days LC250 is a different story, on one hand sharing so much with TnGa-F, what is the program duty cycle target is again anyones guess and have the cost of production been spread so much amongst models that selling price point has little to do with qdr. In addition are the LX, and top tier trim levels of sequoia, tundra, and gx550 all sharing similar program targets in terms of longevity?

Would love to hear some input by those in the know, of course ndas trade secrets etc lol

 

[OGBeno]

No one has ever confirmed this from official channels, but part of the folklore of the landcruiser series has been its supposed 25 year duty cycle. Starting at the prices the lc200 did, one could rationalize (not substantiate i'd like to emphasize) that this was somewhat true, where as other products did not have a price point nor program budget that indicated they had similar duty cycles built into the program.

These days LC250 is a different story, on one hand sharing so much with TnGa-F, what is the program duty cycle target is again anyones guess and have the cost of production been spread so much amongst models that selling price point has little to do with qdr. In addition are the LX, and top tier trim levels of sequoia, tundra, and gx550 all sharing similar program targets in terms of longevity?

Would love to hear some input by those in the know, of course ndas trade secrets etc lol

Toyota will never allow this kind of information to be publically known. Those are ancient Aichi secrets.

The rest of us will just continue to make up stories and tall tales.

 

[rexington14]

I've never understood that 25 year service life folklore. Many other maintained Toyota models can / will go 25+ years. That is nothing unique to a Land Cruiser. My 2006 Corolla CE with a 5spd manual (base model) that MSRP'd new at $14k, (4x less than a similar year Land Cruiser) will be on the roads for just as long as any Land Cruiser will be.

 

[Jetboy]

The bits and pieces of info seem to align with the roughly 25 year life expectance for all of the Toyota BOF models.

Toyota has published the expected service life for its sedans to be 300,000km or roughly 180k miles in the context of hybrid battery design life - I'd have to go do some digging to try to find the Prius publications from the early 2000's but I'm pretty sure they stated that the battery is expected to last the life of the vehicle and meant about 300,000km. That was a long time ago. Not sure if it is still relevant. More recently Brian Schneidewind said that the truck powertrains have a 1.6x durability testing life vs SUV/car models. That would work out to be in the neighborhood of 480k km or 300k miles. That matches generally with the idea of 25 years. Mike Sweers said in one of the Tundra release interviews that the LC70 was the baseline and everything else was built on that standard and that was why the Tundra had to upsize the transfer case to the category - because that was the chain size necessary to meet the same durability and longevity standard as the LC70 has with the hybrid torque.

I don't know if that holds true universally to all BOF models or just the Tundra, but it seems consistent with most experience. All of the BOF models last a long time if they are maintained regularly. Since the wear items are mostly all shared, it would make sense that they would all last about the same amount of time. Obviously that's within the capability of each model. A Tundra with 10.5 rear axle is going to last longer if you tow heavy loads every day than a 9.5 in an LC or an 8.2 in a Taco/LC250/4Runner. But it's just more fit for that purpose. It seems like the end of life for most Toyota BOF models is reached either by collision damage or rust.

Edit - side thought is that I think it's extremely challenging to engineer for years 15-25. At that age a lot of vehicles are at the lowest value point in their lifecycle and they end up being driven by people who don't maintain them, don't care about them, and also tend to crash them a lot more often - like young adults and there is a high inverse correlation between income and vehicle collisions. How do you design a vehicle to last that extra 10 years after it stops being maintained regularly and is driven by people more likely to run into stuff? That's probably the biggest challenge to a 25 year expected life. I'm sure Toyota has a lot of data on this.

 

[Specialeyes]

I think the whole 25 year bit is nothing more than enthusiast folklore.

On another, unrelated note perhaps I was a bit harsh on the 1GR-FE. I just got back from test driving a nice 100 Series I had fully intended to buy and for all the hype the 2UZ gets that thing felt like driving in molasses. It’s been a while since I have driven something that old and it was a bit of a shock to the system with how bad it felt compared to even the 5th Gen 4R that many already consider to be a dinosaur. Vehicle tech has seriously come a long way over the last 25 years.

 

[rexington14]

I think the whole 25 year bit is nothing more than enthusiast folklore.

On another, unrelated note perhaps I was a bit harsh on the 1GR-FE. I just got back from test driving a nice 100 Series I had fully intended to buy and for all the hype the 2UZ gets that thing felt like driving in molasses. It’s been a while since I have driven something that old and it was a bit of a shock to the system with how bad it felt compared to even the 5th Gen 4R that many already consider to be a dinosaur. Vehicle tech has seriously come a long way over the last 25 years.

To be fair the last year of the 2UZ in a Land Cruiser was 17 years ago. While AFAIK there are still folks buying 5th gen 4Runner's brand new, today.

Anyways, if you are still looking, the 06-07 100's have VVTI and a bit more power. I'd definitely recommend one with the 5 speed transmission which I believe is either 03 or 04 and up.

 

[185]

Toyota will never allow this kind of information to be publically known. Those are ancient Aichi secrets.

The rest of us will just continue to make up stories and tall tales.

True. However I assume one of the benchmarking firms like lean designs and and other industry competitors probably have it down to a science. Would love to see an interview with folks like this on older now outdated designs that they can freely share.

 

[OGBeno]

True. However I assume one of the benchmarking firms like lean designs and and other industry competitors probably have it down to a science. Would love to see an interview with folks like this on older now outdated designs that they can freely share.

That would be cool indeed. But I am sure everyone associated with vehicle development as well as benchmarking 3rd parties are all bound by very strict NDAs.

There is a forum member who worked for Toyota for many years in Product Planning and has since left Toyota and even he can't discuss what he did back well over 25 years ago.

 

[hoser]

I've never understood that 25 year service life folklore. Many other maintained Toyota models can / will go 25+ years. That is nothing unique to a Land Cruiser. My 2006 Corolla CE with a 5spd manual (base model) that MSRP'd new at $14k, (4x less than a similar year Land Cruiser) will be on the roads for just as long as any Land Cruiser will be.

Who ever wrote that, I don't think they had the smooth USA roads and the mild conditions in mind. And when first said, it was in the mid 90's (I believe)... when all Land Cruisers had straight axles. At the time, I think most Land Cruisers were sold in the Middle East and a distant 2nd, Australia. The majority of 25 year old Land Cruisers in the Middle East are really beat down. Not just conditions but maintenance and repair. No Corolla would survive without major work.

 

[rexington14]

Who ever wrote that, I don't think they had the smooth USA roads and the mild conditions in mind. And when first said, it was in the mid 90's (I believe)... when all Land Cruisers had straight axles. At the time, I think most Land Cruisers were sold in the Middle East and a distant 2nd, Australia. The majority of 25 year old Land Cruisers in the Middle East are really beat down. Not just conditions but maintenance and repair. No Corolla would survive without major work.

Ha. Around 80-90% of all registered cars in Afghanistan are various generations of corollas.

 

[hoser]

They are mostly JDM imports. Add 25 years and they are screwed.

 

[jmdaniel]

Toyota will never allow this kind of information to be publically known. Those are ancient Aichi secrets.

The rest of us will just continue to make up stories and tall tales.

Your profile picture checks out.

 

[rexington14]

Of course they are imported. It is Afghanistan after all. Anyways, that's a lot of corollas. I'm sure plenty of them are pre 2000 models and the locals have the mechanical and financial resources to keep them going for a long time.

But I do agree the 25 year LC folklore may not have been specific to USA roads - especially any northeastern / rust belt roads. Unless the folklore includes an asterisk * as long as you regularly wash and apply rust proofing / fluid film every single year

 

[hoot504]

Updated vid