Timkin vs. Koyo Wheel bearings

[Yorty]

i know a guy... no really, Timken is currently the world leader in tapered roller bearing and essentially wrote the book on design and optimization of them. I agree, brands like SKF, FAG, Koyo all make quality product and focus very heavily in certain markets, product types, etc. Up thru the 80's Timken was THE tapered roller bearing company, and started getting heavy pressure in the automotive bearing market from companies like NSK, NTN, Koyo with good internal geometry, high quality Japenese steel, and their Japanese approach to margins, etc. which lead to the launch of one of Timken's high performance bearing lines in the 80's called P900. If you look at the fit an finish of a lot of these smaller size Timken wheel, differential, and transmission bearings you can see that surface finish looks really good, compared to larger industrial bearings, that my be ground instead of honed.

In the case of roller and raceway surface finishing, there is grinding, honing, and super finishing. A lot of the Timken product is super finished in this size range based on how their manufacturing lines are setup. It doesn't make sense to change the setup on high volume lines all the time to run all levels so a lot of these are upgraded to the better performance parts.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to things like this, but I can remove if not.
Articles like Tapered Roller Bearing Performance for 1990's often include Timken internal bearing life test results, competitor product testing, or testing results from independent third parties.

I'm not saying I have one specific set of data, or definitive test that says this JLM104948/910 is xx percent better than Koyo's. Just adding some of what I know about roller bearings, Timken, and some of their competitor product.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Interesting stuff!

Just to echo what has been said, it really comes down to personal preference and budget, the Timkens are a little easier for us to source than import Japanese bearings so the price reflects that. Both are fantastic bearings and are use OE by Toyota, yes, Toyota uses USA made bearings in many applications.

This is our official stance:
"FAQ: Timken versus Koyo wheel bearings? Which is better? Both are a fantastic bearing and due to customer demand for both options we stock them both. Timken bearings are made in the USA, Koyo bearings are made in Japan. Both are used OEM by Toyota in older Land Cruisers and various new models as well. We are 100% confident in either option for new and old Land Cruisers alike."

 

[OGBeno]

i know a guy... no really, Timken is currently the world leader in tapered roller bearing and essentially wrote the book on design and optimization of them. I agree, brands like SKF, FAG, Koyo all make quality product and focus very heavily in certain markets, product types, etc. Up thru the 80's Timken was THE tapered roller bearing company, and started getting heavy pressure in the automotive bearing market from companies like NSK, NTN, Koyo with good internal geometry, high quality Japenese steel, and their Japanese approach to margins, etc. which lead to the launch of one of Timken's high performance bearing lines in the 80's called P900. If you look at the fit an finish of a lot of these smaller size Timken wheel, differential, and transmission bearings you can see that surface finish looks really good, compared to larger industrial bearings, that my be ground instead of honed.

In the case of roller and raceway surface finishing, there is grinding, honing, and super finishing. A lot of the Timken product is super finished in this size range based on how their manufacturing lines are setup. It doesn't make sense to change the setup on high volume lines all the time to run all levels so a lot of these are upgraded to the better performance parts.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to things like this, but I can remove if not.
Articles like Tapered Roller Bearing Performance for 1990's often include Timken internal bearing life test results, competitor product testing, or testing results from independent third parties.

I'm not saying I have one specific set of data, or definitive test that says this JLM104948/910 is xx percent better than Koyo's. Just adding some of what I know about roller bearings, Timken, and some of their competitor product.

Turning my phone sideways and seeing you are from Ohio made your techno-visceral response all the more salient... considering my own 7 years in Kent/Akron/Oberlin.

 

[ewillis]

I ordered a set of bearings from my local dealership. I expected Koyo...I got Timken. I said WTF is this? I drive an 80 series LAND CRUISER brah...gimme the Koyo...from Japan! I had to wait acouple days, but they got me Koyos. Didn't realize the Timken was equivalent...I won't complain in the future.

 

[OGBeno]

I ordered a set of bearings from my local dealership. I expected Koyo...I got Timken. I said WTF is this? I drive an 80 series LAND CRUISER brah...gimme the Koyo...from Japan! I had to wait acouple days, but they got me Koyos. Didn't realize the Timken was equivalent...I won't complain in the future.

The Koyo number supersedes to the Timken number in the US EPC.

You have to find a savvy parts guy who knows that both are actually available and the dealer has to break the local super session to get the Koyo part.

That was one of the first parts professional tricks — how to break a local regional manufacture parts super session to get the Japanese part—@cruiserdan taught me many years ago.

 

[ZackR]

i know a guy... no really, Timken is currently the world leader in tapered roller bearing and essentially wrote the book on design and optimization of them. I agree, brands like SKF, FAG, Koyo all make quality product and focus very heavily in certain markets, product types, etc. Up thru the 80's Timken was THE tapered roller bearing company, and started getting heavy pressure in the automotive bearing market from companies like NSK, NTN, Koyo with good internal geometry, high quality Japenese steel, and their Japanese approach to margins, etc. which lead to the launch of one of Timken's high performance bearing lines in the 80's called P900. If you look at the fit an finish of a lot of these smaller size Timken wheel, differential, and transmission bearings you can see that surface finish looks really good, compared to larger industrial bearings, that my be ground instead of honed.

In the case of roller and raceway surface finishing, there is grinding, honing, and super finishing. A lot of the Timken product is super finished in this size range based on how their manufacturing lines are setup. It doesn't make sense to change the setup on high volume lines all the time to run all levels so a lot of these are upgraded to the better performance parts.

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to things like this, but I can remove if not.
Articles like Tapered Roller Bearing Performance for 1990's often include Timken internal bearing life test results, competitor product testing, or testing results from independent third parties.

I'm not saying I have one specific set of data, or definitive test that says this JLM104948/910 is xx percent better than Koyo's. Just adding some of what I know about roller bearings, Timken, and some of their competitor product.

Where's the mic drop emoji?? Love this forum for super interesting posts just like this.

 

[Tachycardic]

I installed the knuckle rebuild kit with koyo wheel bearings about a month ago. Kit is from Cruise Outfitters and it is great. I could have gone Timkin and saved $20 bucks. While Timkin sells Chinese-made bearings, the Timkin wheel bearings in the CO kit are USA-made. In the end, you can't go wrong with either one.

 

[Yorty]

Onur, good eye, I actually live about 5 miles down the street from Timkens world headquarters, but am originally from MA, so I’m not a local.

Timken sells tapered roller bearings made in their plants in China, but they do not, and will not, import them into the US due to anti-dumping laws, so you won't see classic cup/cone marked made in China. On the other hand they do make other types like cylindrical bearings in China however those bearings are still made to the same tolerances as if they were made down south, and those are the ones going into all types of heavy equipment. Think CAT and Deere. If you didn’t have the country code on the product you would not be able to tell a difference.

I was actually surprised to see that the Timken ones are less expensive but it makes sense with shipping. Don’t get me wrong when I can’t get Timken, I’ve used others, in a pinch.


I don’t want to hijack the original topic, but If you look at the larger industrial bearings The Timken name demands a premium in pretty much every market, which you can see reflected in their stock price vs the Japanese companies the past few years. They’ve clearly kicked it up a notch. It’s not good for the overall bearing industry but some of the other major bearing manufacturers are getting hit pretty hard right now in the automotive segment where Timken is performing extremely well across the board.

 

[VADUS]

Excuse me for the old thread rising, but the issue is interesting and has not been solved until this moment. I've also faced with making a choice between original Toyota part numbers for these bearings. I could not make any clue why Toyota has two parallel part numbers for the same bearings: Timken 90080-36067 и Koyo 90368-45087. So I've started checking through the Toyota EPC for these bearing application. And I have found, that the TLC105 and TLC100 (only for external bearing) has the same parts and sizes, BUT only with the Timken option available. There is no official part substitution also. That means, that Toyota does NOT offer that Koyo 90368-45087 bearing for the most heavy cars in line with the same bearing constructive. TLC105/100 are 300 more kg heavier, compared to TLC80. Interesting.... that supposes to mean something. Then I remembered, that the rear hub has the same size bearings, and checked again with the catalog. And already to no surprise it was ONLY Timken option again. That means, that the Timken 90080-36067 is HI CAP one, but Koyo 90368-45087 IS probably NOT. However, there should be a Koyo HI CAP version of the same bearing, but not within the Toyota parts line up (only as an aftermarket). Absolutely the same situation exists for the internal bearings.

The solution is, that the Timken 90080-36067 has more weight capacity, compared to Koyo 90368-45087.

 

[OGBeno]

Excuse me for the old thread rising, but the issue is interesting and has not been solved until this moment. I've also faced with making a choice between original Toyota part numbers for these bearings. I could not make any clue why Toyota has two parallel part numbers for the same bearings: Timken 90080-36067 и Koyo 90368-45087. So I've started checking through the Toyota EPC for these bearing application. And I have found, that the TLC105 and TLC100 (only for external bearing) has the same parts and sizes, BUT only with the Timken option available. There is no official part substitution also. That means, that Toyota does NOT offer that Koyo 90368-45087 bearing for the most heavy cars in line with the same bearing constructive. TLC105/100 are 300 more kg heavier, compared to TLC80. Interesting.... that supposes to mean something. Then I remembered, that the rear hub has the same size bearings, and checked again with the catalog. And already to no surprise it was ONLY Timken option again. That means, that the Timken 90080-36067 is HI CAP one, but Koyo 90368-45087 IS probably NOT. However, there should be a Koyo HI CAP version of the same bearing, but not within the Toyota parts line up (only as an aftermarket). Absolutely the same situation exists for the internal bearings.

The solution is, that the Timken 90080-36067 has more weight capacity, compared to Koyo 90368-45087.

Actually, it's all about procurement, pricing, and regional supply chain agreements Toyota has with its suppliers.

That's about it. Timken and Koyo will both have the same specifications/performance parameters for the same application regardless of part number assignment.

Same when you have different part numbers for fuel pumps, say an Aisan or a Denso part number for the same application. The performance/specifications of the part will be the same.

 

[VADUS]

Actually, it's all about procurement, pricing, and regional supply chain agreements Toyota has with its suppliers.

I've just explained above, that it is about weight capacity of a bearing. If someone can't see those simple things, or can't use the EPC to follow it, then I can only say, that I'm sorry). Lots of aftermarket bearings have a "HI CAP" specs, and it is usually written on a box. In Toyota they don't do that, they just change the part number.

 

[VADUS]

Here is an example with two similar aftermarket Koyo bearings for our TLC80/105/100. The difference is in a weight capacity.

And the "HI CAP" sign is also stamped on a bearing itself. 1-st one Hi-CAP, second one - simple

 

[jonheld]

I've just explained above, that it is about weight capacity of a bearing. If someone can't see those simple things, or can't use the EPC to follow it, then I can only say, that I'm sorry). Lots of aftermarket bearings have a "HI CAP" specs, and it is usually written on a box. In Toyota they don't do that, they just change the part number.

Sorry, but everything you wrote is pure conjecture. I see zero facts and lots of assumptions. When you use words like "suppose" and "probably" you've lost all credibility.

 

[Heckraiser]

I've just explained above, that it is about weight capacity of a bearing. If someone can't see those simple things, or can't use the EPC to follow it, then I can only say, that I'm sorry). Lots of aftermarket bearings have a "HI CAP" specs, and it is usually written on a box. In Toyota they don't do that, they just change the part number.

I'm pretty sure the guy you're replying to knows more about Land Cruiser specific Toyota global parts supply than anyone else on the on the planet with possibly one or two exceptions

 

[VADUS]

I see zero facts and lots of assumptions.

Like I said above - I'm sorry, that you see zero facts.... My information will be helpful for those, who can see the facts inside Toyota's EPC. It is very easy to do, especially after my explanations.

I'm pretty sure the guy you're replying to knows more about Land Cruiser specific Toyota global parts supply than anyone else on the on the planet with possibly one or two exceptions

Oh.... that definitely means nothing to me ))))

 

[jonheld]

Like I said above - I'm sorry, that you see zero facts.... My information will be helpful for those, who can see the facts inside Toyota's EPC. It is very easy to do, especially after my explanations.

Oh.... that definitely means nothing to me ))))

But all you did was post assumptions. Please post some facts.

 

[VADUS]

And the most interesting thing is, that Koyo bearing inside the Toyota box 90368-45087 also has stamp Hi-CAP. Then the two questions are staying unclear:
1. Why EPC gives only Timken 90080-36067 number for the same bearings on the rear axle hub of TLC80/105? And no substitutions. The weight load on a rear axle is higher, when the vehicle is fully loaded.
2. Why EPC gives only Timken 90080-36067 number for the same bearings for TLC105 front hub and for TLC100 external one? These cars are heavier than TLC80.

And it was my fault - catalog does show part substitution from Timken to Koyo. However, the above two questions are still actual.

 

[jonheld]

And the most interesting thing is, that Koyo bearing inside the Toyota box 90368-45087 also has stamp Hi-CAP. Then the two questions are staying unclear:
1. Why EPC gives only Timken 90080-36067 number for the same bearings on the rear axle hub of TLC80/105? And no substitutions. The weight load on a rear axle is higher, when the vehicle is fully loaded.
2. Why EPC gives only Timken 90080-36067 number for the same bearings for TLC105 front hub and for TLC100 external one? These cars are heavier than TLC80.

Again, all you're doing is making assumptions with no data to back it up.
Show manufacturers specifications for weight load or any relevant spec for each of the bearings you're referring to, then we can have an intelligent discussion.

 

[ThreeEyedBandit]

FYI, Koyo Hi-Cap bearings are not a higher load capacity bearing, they are designed for longer life in contaminated and non contaminated lubricants.

 

[VADUS]

Show manufacturers specifications for weight load or any relevant spec for each of the bearings you're referring to

You are asking me that, because you probably know, that Toyota will never provide these specs. to a simple user. That is why all I can do, is to make an assumptions. I am not insisting on my opinion, may be I am wrong. But I see all these facts quite interesting: we have an older model with two available part numbers, also we have a newer and heavier models with only one available Timken number from previous two... Why is that?