This is probably going to be very unliked, but this is just like my opinion man. This is my issue with the LC250

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LA is a unique geological situation, even the NA/Indigenous peoples had stories of the poor air quality. They just moved around when it was s***ty and moved back when it was clear.
We can have some terrible air quality here in the Ozarks....when the USFS or Missouri Department of Conservation decides to do a 2,000 acre controlled burn :rolleyes:. Certainly makes the woods look nice and open, but it's terrible for air quality, especially for my wife and son who have allergy problems. Also a bit frustrating knowing how strict the state and Federal governments make air permitting, then to have them have them intentionally release a massive amount of CO2 and particulates without a care.
 
View attachment 3622890And this is what a lithium mine looks like. Imagine how many of these we would need to replace enough ICE cars to make a dent in tailpipe emissions. Much less CO2.

No one is cheering for tailpipe emissions. What we are getting currently is regulatory action not approved by voters making cars less reliable for slight changes in MPG. Historically, increasing cars MPG by government mileage standards (versus just taxing gasoline like Europe does) doesn’t reduce gallons burned. People choose to live in bigger homes further from work, since the higher mpg car reduces monthly fuel costs. You end up with a higher carbon footprint from people living further from work.

Your first photo is Bejing, much of that pollution is from coal burning power plants. China leads the world in EV’s, as a matter of national security….they have no oil and lots of coal, and the minerals required for battery production. So they’re building coal fired power plants as fast as they can. Terrible for the local environment and huge CO2 impact.

How about if we are honest about what actually might reduce pollution? Mileage standards are being pushed to reduce CO2, not to clean up the LA skyline. And my argument is that they don’t make a meaningful difference, while delivering a potentially less reliable auto fleet, without ever considering the carbon footprint or pollution created in building a car (or appliance, or air conditioner etc) that no longer lasts as long.

If LA wants to ban cars to clean up the air, have at it. But that isn’t the same as the EPA twisting decades old laws to outlaw reliable cars.
A few lithium mines are pretty minor in comparison.

The long term difference; lithium is reusable. You only need to dig it out once. Burned oil isn't - at least not on human time scales.

To put this in perspective - the Thacker Pass mine will produce enough lithium for about 40 million EVs. It's 18,000 acres. To replace all 290 million cars in the USA currently, that would translate to roughly 130,000 acres or 203 square miles of disturbed surface. There's more area than that torn up by oil and gas wells just in the Uintah basin in Utah. And it's not a major oil and gas field.
 
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I know this thread has almost fully derailed from its initial topic about griping about the new LC 250, but the 250’s design has brought to light a more pressing pain point- our degrading environment.
It’s kind of the poster child for the sorry state of things at the moment — so I guess it’s inevitable that the root topic of concern isn’t really the 250’s design but the REASON why it was designed the way it is.

That being said…
Back to EVs because it’s always a polarizing topic! Ha.

Lithium-ion batteries used in today’s EVs aren’t the end game. The brightest researchers around the world are working on different chemistries for the next generation of future batteries.
It’s pretty much guaranteed that the future EV battery will not use lithium, nor cobalt nor even nickel. Elon Musk has even hinted at that.
There is a Science Daily website that has a battery topic section, and the stuff researchers are working on is pretty radical (Sodium batteries etc).
I wouldn’t get hung up on Lithium mines or scarcity or Cobalt mining issues because the future EVs aren’t going to be using that stuff.
 
A few lithium mines are pretty minor in comparison.

The long term difference; lithium is reusable. You only need to dig it out once. Burned oil isn't - at least not on human time scales.
It's not just lithium (although most lithium is mined from brine deposits, which green groups are noting to cause lots of issues in Chile). It's cobalt, copper, nickel, rare earths. It's huge solar fields of wind farms to power the vehicles, then tens of thousands of miles of new transmission lines to move the power around.

Some have calculated that meeting 2050 emissions goals will require mining more copper in the next 30 years than we've mined since the dawn of civilization, but most do indicate demand will double. Copper mining is huge in scale, and you only need to visit SLC to see it in-person. The scale cannot be under-stated of the disruption to normal life by extracting, manufacturing, and constructing all of these new things in people's backyards. Then we have huge quantities of green waste as dead solar panels and wind turbine blades end up in landfills.

I think most folks just don't understand the magnitude of what a true carbon-neutral society will entail; that's the disconnect I've been talking about all along, and the impacts it will have on people. I'm not saying that reducing CO2 is bad, EVs are bad, or that oil is inherently good, just that they come with their own set of trade-offs, and a different type of extractive consumerism-based economy.
 
Back to the Toyotas - our V8s were indeed taken away; Toyota had no choice. I personally think that sucks as I don't ever see a turbo 4 going 1M miles like a UZ, regardless of how great the MPGs are. The only company really moving V8s forward is Ford, and to a lesser degree GM. I'm not a huge fan of Fords, other than their V8s, which are quite good (the 5.0 Coyote is a blast to drive in a F150; I'd like to try one of the 6.8/7.3 big-blocks in a F250).
Feel like it's worth mentioning that the current Ford and GM V8's are NOT the same old school reliable engines many grew to love. Today they all have some form of cylinder deactivation or "AFM" as GM likes to call it. Different timing, injection systems, etc.
 
It's not just lithium (although most lithium is mined from brine deposits, which green groups are noting to cause lots of issues in Chile). It's cobalt, copper, nickel, rare earths. It's huge solar fields of wind farms to power the vehicles, then tens of thousands of miles of new transmission lines to move the power around.

Some have calculated that meeting 2050 emissions goals will require mining more copper in the next 30 years than we've mined since the dawn of civilization, but most do indicate demand will double. Copper mining is huge in scale, and you only need to visit SLC to see it in-person. The scale cannot be under-stated of the disruption to normal life by extracting, manufacturing, and constructing all of these new things in people's backyards. Then we have huge quantities of green waste as dead solar panels and wind turbine blades end up in landfills.

I think most folks just don't understand the magnitude of what a true carbon-neutral society will entail; that's the disconnect I've been talking about all along, and the impacts it will have on people. I'm not saying that reducing CO2 is bad, EVs are bad, or that oil is inherently good, just that they come with their own set of trade-offs, and a different type of extractive consumerism-based economy.

All of this is going down now here in my small little town of 800 people now that the US Feds have "fast tracked" the mine here for the all important manganese/nickel/copper found here. Life is about to change drastically for us here. And, there is nothing we can do about it. :meh: If one complains, one is a hypocrite, unfortunately.


 
Geez. One could also post pictures of over population to push the point that we should stop having babies and treating the sick. And it would be just as disingenuous.

That said, all still have the option of walking and wearing many layers of clothing inside during winter. Just leave the rest of us alone to drive and heat our homes. But the ridiculousness of looking to buy a boxy heavy BOF truck AND yapping about your carbon footprint is uniquely absurd.
 
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It's not just lithium (although most lithium is mined from brine deposits, which green groups are noting to cause lots of issues in Chile). It's cobalt, copper, nickel, rare earths. It's huge solar fields of wind farms to power the vehicles, then tens of thousands of miles of new transmission lines to move the power around.

Some have calculated that meeting 2050 emissions goals will require mining more copper in the next 30 years than we've mined since the dawn of civilization, but most do indicate demand will double. Copper mining is huge in scale, and you only need to visit SLC to see it in-person. The scale cannot be under-stated of the disruption to normal life by extracting, manufacturing, and constructing all of these new things in people's backyards. Then we have huge quantities of green waste as dead solar panels and wind turbine blades end up in landfills.

I think most folks just don't understand the magnitude of what a true carbon-neutral society will entail; that's the disconnect I've been talking about all along, and the impacts it will have on people. I'm not saying that reducing CO2 is bad, EVs are bad, or that oil is inherently good, just that they come with their own set of trade-offs, and a different type of extractive consumerism-based economy.
I lived in Utah for 17 years. The copper mine is huge. But also tiny in comparison to the oil field impacts. I worked with them a lot as a major utility customer. But it's not close to the level to harm that you'll see by taking a drive to Vernal. I had a career in utilities. Solar, wind, hydro, coal, gas - I've worked on lifecycle evaluations of the economics and environmental issues with all them. There's no magic solution, but there is a s*** ton of misinformation. You can correct it over and over with facts, but at the end of the day it's like religion; people choose what they want to believe and find a resource, however nonsensical it may, be to support their belief. That happens on both sides.

What I think is universally true and everyone will agree - air pollution from vehicle tailpipes causes actual harm to real people and reducing the nox, sox, pm, etc is worth doing. I don't foresee gas vehicles going away anytime soon. Or the end of oil. It's not necessarily an all or nothing approach. But it is a tragedy of the commons and it does require a collective action. I don't think any of those things are controversial, but that's I guess why I asked. Is there anyone who doesn't believe it? I suspect most of the debate is simply about the effectiveness of some of the actions or rules and about the discontinuity between individual vs collective harm and individual benefits - the classic tragedy of the commons problem.

I loved living in Utah. But I left Utah after 17 years there because I wasn't willing to raise my kids in this. You can actually see the Kennecott copper mine in the background if you know what you're looking for. On average if I raised my kids there in the air pollution (that is more than half from tailpipes) they would shorten their lives by 2 years. I was wiling to live with it myself. Not willing to force my kids to.
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Hopefully a hybrid land cruiser makes some inroads to cleaner land cruisers.
 
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All of this is going down now here in my small little town of 800 people now that the US Feds have "fast tracked" the mine here for the all important manganese/nickel/copper found here. Life is about to change drastically for us here. And, there is nothing we can do about it. :meh: If one complains, one is a hypocrite, unfortunately.


I am aware of that project and your previous posts on the proximity to it. I'd be upset too if that popped up in my pristine backyard, regardless of how much I'd personally financially benefit from it. It's all in the trade offs and ultimate the disturbance of lots of new areas we are going to be doing as part of the green energy transition (in addition to all of the areas we've already disturbed for coal mining, O&G production, etc).

Here in the Midwest we are converting some of the best farmland in the world to solar (via government subsidies). I have colleagues in Finland who have noted folks are cutting old-growth forest and installing panels in the clearcuts. It would take around 10,000 acres of panels to provide as much power as a small 1,000 MW coal or gas-fired power plant (which takes up <100 acres for the whole site), and that's only during daylight hours when the sun is shining.
 
What would reduce emissions without destroying the economy? A carbon tax refundable pro rata to every citizen. Then capitalism is actually working to reduce emissions, not just meet a mandate. People start making decisions based on reducing costs and emissions at the same time. Like high gas taxes have done in Europe. You could still buy a v8 Land Cruiser but it would cost a ton to use it, so you might take a different approach to using it, or save money elsewhere (likely also saving emissions in this scenario). You get your share of the tax back so the politicians can’t waste it, and therefore the tax doesn’t crush the economy. If you want to roll your carbon tax refund into higher taxed carbon intensive activities, you are no worse off for it…but you can save money by lowering your footprint any time you choose to.

Maybe this leads to EV’s, maybe to smaller cars, maybe to people living in smaller homes. Maybe making longer lasting products would be rewarded if the carbon tax reflected the CO2 involved in making stuff. Who knows. But the incentives would drive results. Which fleet mileage standards do not.

I’m not saying there wouldn’t be challenges to implementing this, but at least it has the benefit of working. Versus a Tesla in the garage of a 5000 square foot house, powered by coal.

What else? A major government push towards nuclear energy. The environmental movement has made it impossible to build new nuclear plants. Waste is a problem but a human’s lifetime energy expenditure results in something like a coke can’s worth of waste.

Do I think either of these approaches will happen? No way. Neither offers politicians more power, or money to dole out to constituents.
 
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Wall Street sure seems to think Toyota has the technical, production, supply chain and financial ability to navigate, thrive and compete.

IMG_1889.jpeg
 
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Umm, an LC 250 instead of a LC 200.... should I sell all my stocks?

View attachment 3623063
Hitting 39 mpg in the summer in our 5000# Highlander Hybrid is pretty darn awesome. If the 250 is like the other Toyota hybrids, it may beat the EPA numbers.

The reduction in other infrastructure needs and corresponding big MPG gaims is why hybrids are so awesome. If I end up needing a commuter again it will be a Camry hybrid.
 
Hitting 39 mpg in the summer in our 5000# Highlander Hybrid is pretty darn awesome. If the 250 is like the other Toyota hybrids, it may beat the EPA numbers.

The reduction in other infrastructure needs and corresponding big MPG gaims is why hybrids are so awesome. If I end up needing a commuter again it will be a Camry hybrid.
Just watched this video on the new Tacoma TRD Pro. Hopefully the LC250 fairs better than this but I suspect it ill be similar

 
Lithium-ion batteries used in today’s EVs aren’t the end game. The brightest researchers around the world are working on different chemistries for the next generation of future batteries.
It’s pretty much guaranteed that the future EV battery will not use lithium, nor cobalt nor even nickel. Elon Musk has even hinted at that.
There is a Science Daily website that has a battery topic section, and the stuff researchers are working on is pretty radical (Sodium batteries etc).
I wouldn’t get hung up on Lithium mines or scarcity or Cobalt mining issues because the future EVs aren’t going to be using that stuff.
A close friend is a PhD chemist. For the past 30 years, he has been a battery chemist. He takes a very dim view of most of the claims of battery breakthroughs that people claim are coming. He believes they are unlikely to amount to much.

In other words, don’t hold your breath.
 
Not long ago, the state of the art battery chemistry was NiMH. That was the best chemistry available back then and there was nothing better on the horizon.
Until John Goodenough published his research work on li-ion batteries.
Thousands of chemists were completely unaware of the potential for li-ion batteries until John published his work.
 
Thank you for sharing it !

I watched it. If it is really 19mpg, I am honestly not impressed. My 2013 LC200 with 135k miles, Dobinsons, 33's, at 70mph makes between 17 to 18mpg.

Also, I am wondering something... if the range of the Tacoma hybrid (or LC250 for that matters) is 360, or whatever ends up being... that is pure on gas, right? So what happens to the rest of power coming from the hybrid system/battery? Does that mean that once the car runs out of gas, that is it? Or say, hypothetically, if one runs out of gas completely, then the hybrid would work and if you drive slowly, say I dunno, under 20 mph or whatever the speed is to keep the machine just runing on hybrid, then you have indeed a longer TOTAL range?

🤔

Just watched this video on the new Tacoma TRD Pro. Hopefully the LC250 fairs better than this but I suspect it ill be similar

 
Thank you for sharing it !

I watched it. If it is really 19mpg, I am honestly not impressed. My 2013 LC200 with 135k miles, Dobinsons, 33's, at 70mph makes between 17 to 18mpg.

Also, I am wondering something... if the range of the Tacoma hybrid (or LC250 for that matters) is 360, or whatever ends up being... that is pure on gas, right? So what happens to the rest of power coming from the hybrid system/battery? Does that mean that once the car runs out of gas, that is it? Or say, hypothetically, if one runs out of gas completely, then the hybrid would work and if you drive slowly, say I dunno, under 20 mph or whatever the speed is to keep the machine just runing on hybrid, then you have indeed a longer TOTAL range?

🤔
That’s definitely not how this hybrid system works. It’s merely an assist motor to the gas engine, and not built to run on pure electric at low MPH.
 
Than you ! I have heard otherwise, but good to know it is not true !

I might or might not test this hypotesis once I get my oen LC250 🤣

That’s definitely not how this hybrid system works. It’s merely an assist motor to the gas engine, and not built to run on pure electric at low MPH.
 
That’s definitely not how this hybrid system works. It’s merely an assist motor to the gas engine, and not built to run on pure electric at low MPH.
That is my understanding as well, you cant drive without the gas engine running
 

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