This is probably going to be very unliked, but this is just like my opinion man. This is my issue with the LC250 (6 Viewers)

[Rednexus]

I'm not their target demographic and never will be. Dropping even $60K on a new vehicle to actually wheel with is still, IMO, too much money. $100K for a new LX600 to wheel in would be like lighting money on fire (more power to folks who can do that, it's just not me ). My GX is covered with pinstripes. It also only cost $10,700 from a private-party seller (although I have 2X that in parts/added goodies on top of that so far).

I'll be much happier in 7-10 years (assuming I'm still into these rigs at that point) after letting Owner 1 take most of the depreciation on a GX550 or LX600, giving me a good vehicle to wheel with that is a not as terrible of a financial investment as beating up on a brand new one and really tanking the resale value.

 

[Jetboy]

It's metal and paint. There's no magic special sauce. Other than Sequoia they are all now flavors of one product: midsize SUV. The Jeep Wrangler alone has more range of options than the entire lineup of 112" wb model set from Toyota.

It makes no sense to me to make 4 bof SUVs that are all the same size and same platform. Especially when there's 13 versions of just the Tacoma.

What name they stick on - I don't care. I'd just like a bit of choice.

 

[TWILLY]

And most people simply won't put up with all the drawbacks of a solid front axle -- worse ride, bump steer, etc.

Drawbacks.

I just returned from two days of work traversing a lot of southern Arizona on pitchy, sparsely or not maintained dirt.

You know, the kind of stuff that Land Cruisers are for.

Even with a substantial load, the solid front axle 80 series was so much more civilized than the IFS trucks getting pitched about—head toss city.

 

[GTV]

If Toyota named the 250 something else, would everyone then be happy?

If they gave us the LC300 IDGAF what they call the 250.

 

[peneumbra2]

It was just a minor facelift. It's still the same truck that won't meet our emissions or crash safety regulations. And most people simply won't put up with all the drawbacks of a solid front axle -- worse ride, bump steer, etc.

Well, I for one would buy a new 79 Series right now tonight if they sold them in the U.S...

 

[TurbodreamZ]

I’d buy it right now if we got the diesel.

 

[TWILLY]

I’d buy it right now if we got the diesel.

What about the diesel do you prefer to the hybrid?

 

[GTV]

What about the diesel do you prefer to the hybrid?

Not loosing the cargo space from the battery is a huge plus.

What's the difference on range?

 

[m4hk33]

After a few days

Toyota is here to make money, not cater to 1% of buyers on ih8mud.

Most mudders are 2nd and 3rd owners anyway…. Toyota is after the 1st owner.

There's is a lot of truth to this. Toyota knows how to sell cars better than anyone else. I would venture that their current fleet of reskinned prados will significantly outsell the last generation of BOF SUV's which toyota will ultimatly see a big win.

With that being said, I think the displeasure that we are seeing stems from a couple areas. One, people were attracted to the land cruisers reputation and capability. Many people joined the community because they found a to hell in back, bomb proof SUV appealing, the 25 year service life the great track record in overseas service, its a great narative/image.

Unfortunately for people that find appeal to that narrative, Toyota is replacing the heavy duty LC with a light duty variant with reduced cargo capacity. This is the same line of think people use to justify 2500 class HD trucks.

I think the lineup of prado's are ok, but don't think that there's a single aspect of any of the three that really blow me away, at least enough to get me to drop 70k on a GX OT.

I've been thinking about just grabbing a rebuilt manual 100 series from the GCC, 8 to 10k imported to the US. Done.

 

[Paddler Ed]

Choices here in Australia in the 4x4 wagon (with separate chassis) from Toyota in 2023/4 (the 250 hasn't quite landed yet)

• VDJL76 Land Cruiser 70 wagon (5 door, 5 seats), 4.5 V8 thong slapper
• GDJL76 Land Cruiser 70 wagon (5 door, 5 seats) 2.8 I4
• FJAL300 Land Cruiser 300 wagon (5 door, 5 or 7 seats), 3.3 V6
• GUN156 Fortuner (5 door, 7 seater) 2.8 I4
• GDJ150 Land Cruiser Prado 150 (5 door, 7 seats), 2.8 I4 (which is the same sort of spec engine and seating as a 250 series will be)

https://www.toyota.com.au/suvs-4wds and https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70/prices?material_code=7215370B0FB10058 (for the 76 wagon)

So how do they cope with so many?
I reckon the 76 exists for the fleet sales, as they like similar vehicles and these would match the Troopys and utes on a mine site (one lot of filters needed etc) and also why the Fortuner works (shares with a Hilux). They work for government contracts as well, due to the robustness of them. Never quite got the market traction that the utes or Troopys have, know someone trying to sell one at the moment I reckon it's been on the market for about 8 months now at a similar price point to a comparable ute... just not shifting, whereas utes are changing much quicker with same age and kms.

I reckon the 300 series is a bit of an orphan; sells well to grey nomads who are burning through the kids inheritance after cashing out on their house and then subsequently towing a small house around behind them. Otherwise, it's often the "all hat and no cattle" population who have moved from the major cities and believe they need a Land Cruiser (they'd actually get away with a Prado like most of the farms actually do). Aussies don't do conspicuous consumption very well, it's a bit of the Tall Poppy Syndrome, and it makes it harder to do the "poor hard-done by farmer"... also the tax breaks aren't as good for a 300 series as they are for a VDJ79 double cab or an American truck...

The Prado is a sensible size that tows 3000kg (not as much as a 300 series or a 70 series) and does it in adequate comfort. Also seats 7, and just is a good solid family vehicle, tough enough to be driven through the farm everyday, and (in the ethos of the original Range Rover) smart enough to drive into town for a pub dinner. Seems to do better on 3rd row space than the 300 (see reviews by the same journo here and here)

The Fortuner is spun off the Hilux, and competes directly in concept with the Ford Everest (which shares some platform features with the Bronco), the Isuzu MU-X (shares platform with the DMax), and the Mitsubishi Pajero Sport (shares with the L200/Triton). Nissan deviated with the R51 Pathfinder, and made that into a Kluger rival rather than basing it on the Navara. The Frotuner just never gained the traction that it needed; Toyota just don't do this segment well in Australia. The LN/RN/VZN130 4Runner was so-so here, and never brought in as the 185-series officially (only Japanese import KZN185 and some VZN185s), leaving the 90/95 series Prado to take up the slack there.

Personally, I'm sticking with my FZJ80 and other old Land Cruisers, and am surprised that the 300 series only has an inch more clearance than my Volvo V90 CrossCountry (235mm vs 210mm).... but before we got that we were shopping in this area and it was between a Prado, Fortuner, and a Ford Everest.... with the Everest being the prefered option with the V6 diesel. However, as the 80 wasn't going anywhere, there was no point in getting another big 4x4.

Oh, and to

In Spanish "Kaka" means a pile of .

I'd like to point out that Kakadu is a region in Australia... then again, given that Americans are sometimes called septics in Australia, I'm not surprised with the familiarity with kaka... )

 

[TWILLY]

There's is a lot of truth to this. Toyota knows how to sell cars better than anyone else. I would venture that their current fleet of reskinned prados will significantly outsell the last generation of BOF SUV's which toyota will ultimatly see a big win.

With that being said, I think the displeasure that we are seeing stems from a couple areas. One, people were attracted to the land cruisers reputation and capability. Many people joined the community because they found a to hell in back, bomb proof SUV appealing, the 25 year service life the great track record in overseas service, its a great narative/image.

Unfortunately for people that find appeal to that narrative, Toyota is replacing the heavy duty LC with a light duty variant with reduced cargo capacity. This is the same line of think people use to justify 2500 class HD trucks.

An alternative view is that a Land Cruiser like the 250, which Toyota advertising touts for its “expedition” capabilities, should also be rated to carry a heavier load than, like, a Kia Sorrento.

 

[2021 LC200]

Choices here in Australia in the 4x4 wagon (with separate chassis) from Toyota in 2023/4 (the 250 hasn't quite landed yet)

• VDJL76 Land Cruiser 70 wagon (5 door, 5 seats), 4.5 V8 thong slapper
• GDJL76 Land Cruiser 70 wagon (5 door, 5 seats) 2.8 I4
• FJAL300 Land Cruiser 300 wagon (5 door, 5 or 7 seats), 3.3 V6
• GUN156 Fortuner (5 door, 7 seater) 2.8 I4
• GDJ150 Land Cruiser Prado 150 (5 door, 7 seats), 2.8 I4 (which is the same sort of spec engine and seating as a 250 series will be)

View attachment 3606794
https://www.toyota.com.au/suvs-4wds and https://www.toyota.com.au/landcruiser-70/prices?material_code=7215370B0FB10058 (for the 76 wagon)

So how do they cope with so many?
I reckon the 76 exists for the fleet sales, as they like similar vehicles and these would match the Troopys and utes on a mine site (one lot of filters needed etc) and also why the Fortuner works (shares with a Hilux). They work for government contracts as well, due to the robustness of them. Never quite got the market traction that the utes or Troopys have, know someone trying to sell one at the moment I reckon it's been on the market for about 8 months now at a similar price point to a comparable ute... just not shifting, whereas utes are changing much quicker with same age and kms.

I reckon the 300 series is a bit of an orphan; sells well to grey nomads who are burning through the kids inheritance after cashing out on their house and then subsequently towing a small house around behind them. Otherwise, it's often the "all hat and no cattle" population who have moved from the major cities and believe they need a Land Cruiser (they'd actually get away with a Prado like most of the farms actually do). Aussies don't do conspicuous consumption very well, it's a bit of the Tall Poppy Syndrome, and it makes it harder to do the "poor hard-done by farmer"... also the tax breaks aren't as good for a 300 series as they are for a VDJ79 double cab or an American truck...

The Prado is a sensible size that tows 3000kg (not as much as a 300 series or a 70 series) and does it in adequate comfort. Also seats 7, and just is a good solid family vehicle, tough enough to be driven through the farm everyday, and (in the ethos of the original Range Rover) smart enough to drive into town for a pub dinner. Seems to do better on 3rd row space than the 300 (see reviews by the same journo here and here)

The Fortuner is spun off the Hilux, and competes directly in concept with the Ford Everest (which shares some platform features with the Bronco), the Isuzu MU-X (shares platform with the DMax), and the Mitsubishi Pajero Sport (shares with the L200/Triton). Nissan deviated with the R51 Pathfinder, and made that into a Kluger rival rather than basing it on the Navara. The Frotuner just never gained the traction that it needed; Toyota just don't do this segment well in Australia. The LN/RN/VZN130 4Runner was so-so here, and never brought in as the 185-series officially (only Japanese import KZN185 and some VZN185s), leaving the 90/95 series Prado to take up the slack there.

Personally, I'm sticking with my FZJ80 and other old Land Cruisers, and am surprised that the 300 series only has an inch more clearance than my Volvo V90 CrossCountry (235mm vs 210mm).... but before we got that we were shopping in this area and it was between a Prado, Fortuner, and a Ford Everest.... with the Everest being the prefered option with the V6 diesel. However, as the 80 wasn't going anywhere, there was no point in getting another big 4x4.

Oh, and to


I'd like to point out that Kakadu is a region in Australia... then again, given that Americans are sometimes called septics in Australia, I'm not surprised with the familiarity with kaka... )

Thanks for this contribution from Australia. Good to hear from another part of the world. For clarity, I am from the Netherlands and live for work in Houston. Our kids all settled here and we are immigrating for work and staying close to them. In the process of having moved around the world for my work I learned to speak Spanish and Portuguese, beside good Dutch/English/German and some French. Maybe that makes me in specific septic…

So I had to look up what Kakadu is about. Looks like an aboriginal name for a pretty nice national park. Like using the name Sequoia. It sounds funny in Dutch, German and Spanish but who cares.

Per Google search;

Kakadu National Park is an enormous, biodiverse nature reserve in Australia’s Northern Territory. With terrain encompassing wetlands, rivers and sandstone escarpments, it’s home to some 2,000 plant species and wildlife from saltwater crocodiles and flatback turtles to birds. Aboriginal rock paintings, dating to prehistoric times, can be viewed at sites such as Nourlangie, Nanguluwur and Ubirr.

Hope to visit one day. Have a great day and hope to hear more from Australia Toyota enthusiasts!

 

[TurbodreamZ]

What about the diesel do you prefer to the hybrid?

I guess I haven’t driven either of these but I was just basing it off my experience with owning a hzj73. There was just so much torque down low that it felt unstoppable off road. I used to be able to leave it in hi, stomp my foot on the brakes and it would not even stall. It pulled out stuck dually trucks without trying. And it was dead reliable. More reliable than my 1fze and got better mileage. Again, I’m not familiar with these new motors though.

 

[mep1811]

Good thread. No doubt the new Land Cruiser is a Prado and should have been marketed as such. The similarity to the 4Runner is disappointing. Like a Chevy Tahoe and GMC Yukon.

It seems if one wants a full sized vehicle like the old 200 Series ,the Sequoia is the answer.

I doubt the new Land Cruiser Prado will take well to being armored like the 200 Series.

 

[2021 LC200]

I guess I haven’t driven either of these but I was just basing it off my experience with owning a hzj73. There was just so much torque down low that it felt unstoppable off road. I used to be able to leave it in hi, stomp my foot on the brakes and it would not even stall. It pulled out stuck dually trucks without trying. And it was dead reliable. More reliable than my 1fze and got better mileage. Again, I’m not familiar with these new motors though.

Diesels over the last decade are a more complex proposition. I owe a 535d and ended up deleting the DPF & ad blue systems due to 1) continued issues with the same and 2) the ridiculous thermal loads on the turbo and the engine bay every 500 to 1000 miles when it goes in regeneration mode (raising exhaust temps to around 800 degr C or 1600 degr F by injecting excess diesel which ends up partially in the oil, what a mess).

So while diesels are great for most uses vs gasoline/petrol engines and with high compression ratio + some more energy density per volume are by design more efficient, the politicians/environmentalists have pushed IMO for unrealistic limits and it is no longer the same.

Today I would have to recommend buying petrol/gasoline preferably natural aspirated or just with one easy accessible turbo. No hybrid, no twin turbo with difficult access and unfortunately no diesel. Looks like several key Toyota products will not offer that any longer. Need to keep driving defensively in my 200 to enjoy it for 20 years +

 

[jayp2]

I'm not their target demographic and never will be. Dropping even $60K on a new vehicle to actually wheel with is still, IMO, too much money. $100K for a new LX600 to wheel in would be like lighting money on fire (more power to folks who can do that, it's just not me ). My GX is covered with pinstripes. It also only cost $10,700 from a private-party seller (although I have 2X that in parts/added goodies on top of that so far).

I'll be much happier in 7-10 years (assuming I'm still into these rigs at that point) after letting Owner 1 take most of the depreciation on a GX550 or LX600, giving me a good vehicle to wheel with that is a not as terrible of a financial investment as beating up on a brand new one and really tanking the resale value.

My concern with this approach is going to be the value and condition at 7-10 years of age and the amount and cost of work to render it reliable.

Consider how much work lots of folks have had to put into previous iterations (that were simpler, parts more avail/simpler) as second or even third owner

It remains to be seen just how many parts and assemblies used in the new vehicle are pre-existing/used on existing and how many were produced new for this version.

the former I would expect to be less expensive (generally) and more avail
the latter is what will likely bleed new to vehicle owners dry

 

[jayp2]

I’d buy it right now if we got the diesel.

So the UK gets the 250 with a 2.8 4cyl diesel

grrrrrrrr

 

[Rednexus]

My concern with this approach is going to be the value and condition at 7-10 years of age and the amount and cost of work to render it reliable.

Consider how much work lots of folks have had to put into previous iterations (that were simpler, parts more avail/simpler) as second or even third owner

It remains to be seen just how many parts and assemblies used in the new vehicle are pre-existing/used on existing and how many were produced new for this version.

the former I would expect to be less expensive (generally) and more avail
the latter is what will likely bleed new to vehicle owners dry

I totally agree which is why (despite feeling good over at least the chassis/suspension) I won't buy one for at least another 5 years and maybe even 10 (if I buy one at all). By then the gremlins will be known. If the powertrain turns out to be a lemon, they'll still be a good supply of GX460s around in the 10-15 year old mark for use as wheeling platforms.

 

[M1911]

Drawbacks.

I just returned from two days of work traversing a lot of southern Arizona on pitchy, sparsely or not maintained dirt.

You know, the kind of stuff that Land Cruisers are for.

Even with a substantial load, the solid front axle 80 series was so much more civilized than the IFS trucks getting pitched about—head toss city.

For most people, 99% of their driving is on road, even folks with a Land Cruiser. And on the road, an IFS gives better ride and handling than a SFA. Unsprung weight is a thing and you just can’t get around the physics of it when comparing an SFA to an IFS.

If an SFA gave better ride and handling on road, then we would all be driving vehicles with SFA.

 

[M1911]

Well, I for one would buy a new 79 Series right now tonight if they sold them in the U.S...

As I’ve said previously on several occasions, I believe most of the love for the 70 Series here in the US is just because it is forbidden fruit. They simply aren’t that great. The NVH is poor. The interior is not very roomy. The seats aren’t very comfortable. The interior looks like a 1/2 ton pickup from around 1990.

Toyota increased the track width of the front axle to accommodate the V8 turbo diesel but didn’t widen the rear axle at the same time, so the front track width is wider than the rear track width. As a result, anytime you are on soft ground, like sand or snow, the rear tires slide into the wider track created by the front tire, causing the rear end to continually fishtail. There are two solutions to this. The cheap but crappy solution is to put different wheels on the rear with wider offset (which of course means you won’t have a spare that fits both front and rear properly). The better but very expensive solution is to entirely replace the rear axle with a wider aftermarket axle.

I suspect many people in the US who claim to want the 70 series would change their mind if they actually drove one. But it doesn’t matter because Toyota won’t sell it in the US.