The HORROR!

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What Marshall said, it's not the wheeling!
FWIW--as of this evening I have a second confirmation on trap locations.
Are there more than the ones I told you about?


Have got to say when I saw this picture it made me a little mad. While I love Unimoggs. Something of this size has no place at the Holy Land.
Bob, the red Mog guy, and I are more overlanders and campers than wheelers. He's a retired guy in his 60's that has traveled and camped all over the world and treads as lightly as he can. Before you bash the Mog, learn the culture of the owners. It's counterproductive to divide the community.


Me, Bob, & the girls on Mother's Day:
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Maybe by "building", that person meant adding an RTT and some lights. Not rockwells and 47's.

You really have a "holier than thou" e-attitude that is a complete turn off. Mind you that statement is based off very few posts Ive seen you make on here and GATTORA. I dont hang out here much, but it's all I've seen out of you.

Yep, that's right. Basically bought a very cheap mildly built vehicle and I'm fixing the stuff that it needs to make it roadworthy again and adding a bumper/winch and maybe a roof tent if a cheap one comes along.
 
Maybe by "building", that person meant adding an RTT and some lights. Not rockwells and 47's.

You really have a "holier than thou" e-attitude that is a complete turn off. Mind you that statement is based off very few posts Ive seen you make on here and GATTORA. I dont hang out here much, but it's all I've seen out of you.

Your right. Nothing wrong with building a vehicle to go camping or doing some expedition runs in. Didn't mean to insinuate that. Just ,early stating there is nothing out there that needs an extreme vehicle.

As far as the HTT attitude your wrong. I'm just as much to blame as anyone else as to not doing my part to help maintain the area. Other than me picking up some trash here and there that is about all I have done. And yes as far as getting on other boards and telling them not to post up the location of the area. Yes I'm guilty of that. I'm amazed at how long it took for the FS to actually start paying attention to the amount of traffic it was getting. 5 years ago that place was really only known to the locals. The internet has changed that. People have posted maps, GPS positions, road names all over the net. The internet is what has put the bullseye on the holy land. If it were not for it no one would have any idea of that place. Or a lot fewer people. I went back through our board and erased an mention of the location and removed any maps in an effort to try to stop anymore people finding out about it. Hasn't helped. People cannot help wanting to tell their friends about the place.

But maybe the internet can actually help fix the issue. Maybe if we all go together as one group and formed a committee and actually raised money and had volunteers to go out and help fix the trails the FS might keep it open. At this point anything is worth a try.
 
You really have a "holier than thou" e-attitude that is a complete turn off.

This thread should be and will be about what to do regarding this piece of land and I'd like to keep it that way. Constructive input is what we're looking for, we're not going to deteriorate into internal bickering and name calling. Too many times good threads have been side tracked by this kind of crap and it's not gonna happen here. So, if you want to start casting insults at another member take it somewhere else.

Back on point. It's good to assess why and how things have happened at this location so we can learn from it and prevent it from happening again. I too have found the maps and road names all over the internet to include one specific site that has a detailed map ready for download, shame on us for allowing this to happen. If someone knows the admin of this site please send them a request to remove it.

In short, stand up and help! There's an old saying about standing on the shoulders of giants. Well, we all get to have fun in the woods because of the efforts that have came before us.

Now, Who's next?
 
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It's good to assess why and how things have happened at this location so we can learn from it and prevent it from happening again.
All of the locals that I spoke with mentioned the amount of trash being left behind by people.
We even see that more and more at Amicalola and picked up a giant bag of crud last time (thanks for carting it out, Andrew).
I don't know how anybody can justify throwing garbage on the ground and driving away, whether a beer can or a cigarette butt.
But, no matter how many years I've been traveling, I've never actually caught the litterbugs so I don't know how to cure it.

The second thing I've witnessed and heard from Rangers is the increase in irresponsible wheeling. There are yahoos that take their rigs into campsites and along trails and spin their tires like crazy and try to sling as much mud as possible. We're already battling a negative stereotype that we're all a bunch of drunken rednecks (the MUDders we met up on the Lower Bald from Asheville were drinking and wheeling, btw); we need to present ourselves in a more polished way to change public perception of us.
 
might want to contact dave logan and ask him about what he was doing about anderson creek, same type scenerio with a very bad outcome for us.
 
Well I guess its this generation.
You know I have noticed since I first found this place by researching and asking about it to the very few that knew, it has gained alot of momentum all across the south east area. I know of 4-5 boards that go to this place. Now if one goes, then he takes someone the next weekend, then that one takes another..so forth and so on.

It is a shame whats going on but for me it was about the experience. Now dont get me wrong I like to wheel but for anyone that knows me knows how my truck is set up. Im not going to beat on it and I love the outdoors. In my short 22 years of life and exploring this is been the best place I have ever been. Its not about the wheeling, its truly a very unique place. I love camping and the outdoors and this place is amazing. Its an easy 5 hour drive for me to get there and would do it in a heart beat just to camp there and hang with my friends.

Some know why I am not seen much and undertand but I do try to do what I can to save these places. I hope everyone steps up. But then again does it need to be advertised? Should we accept it or should we try and work with them?

I hope we can get someone up there soon and go over the place. I already can imagine the areas they are blocking off and I can see why. It sucks but in the eyes of the FS some places could be cited as a liability and if the FS is anything like other federal, state, whatever agencies they are hurting and probably do not have the funds.

So if I can do anything let me know. I have only met some of you a few times and some I consider to be life long friends. I am willing and able when I can be and I know for a fact Ted out of everyone knows that. So lets see what needs to be done and make a plan over the wheeling community that knows the area. It goes well beyond the Ga Cruisers, or Upstate,etc. Maybe we need to get a small but mass gathering and talk.

Also I do not agree with the UniMog statement. I too thought dang that thing is big to be taken up there, but I bet those guys treat the place better than the locals. It is a National Forest its not for anyone to say whos goes up there, but I know if more of the people that went up there respected the land like I am sure those do it would be a better place.
 
Also I do not agree with the UniMog statement. I too thought dang that thing is big to be taken up there, but I bet those guys treat the place better than the locals.
Locals in front of us in a red YJ tossed a beer can into the creek just outside "the gate" in that area that looks like the scary town in Deliverance.
 
I remember that place...had the big sailfish on the outside of the shack? You should have stopped and talked with em a while. I got a good laugh from the lady there. I mean I am southern but she cracked me up. There was many of people on the cb playing the banjo when we went through there.
 
I remember that place...had the big sailfish on the outside of the shack? You should have stopped and talked with em a while. I got a good laugh from the lady there. I mean I am southern but she cracked me up. There was many of people on the cb playing the banjo when we went through there.

That was a classic moment without doubt! :hillbilly:
 
That's the area.
The litterbugs were from Sylva; we had been talking to them earlier on the trail. They were full of Bud and covered with mud. And tats.
 
Your right. Nothing wrong with building a vehicle to go camping or doing some expedition runs in. Didn't mean to insinuate that. Just ,early stating there is nothing out there that needs an extreme vehicle.

As far as the HTT attitude your wrong. I'm just as much to blame as anyone else as to not doing my part to help maintain the area. Other than me picking up some trash here and there that is about all I have done. And yes as far as getting on other boards and telling them not to post up the location of the area. Yes I'm guilty of that. I'm amazed at how long it took for the FS to actually start paying attention to the amount of traffic it was getting. 5 years ago that place was really only known to the locals. The internet has changed that. People have posted maps, GPS positions, road names all over the net. The internet is what has put the bullseye on the holy land. If it were not for it no one would have any idea of that place. Or a lot fewer people. I went back through our board and erased an mention of the location and removed any maps in an effort to try to stop anymore people finding out about it. Hasn't helped. People cannot help wanting to tell their friends about the place.

But maybe the internet can actually help fix the issue. Maybe if we all go together as one group and formed a committee and actually raised money and had volunteers to go out and help fix the trails the FS might keep it open. At this point anything is worth a try.

I think the real answer is to change their thinking, their perspective of our sport. Get them to see the areas and "problems" the way we see things.
"Maintaining" trails and picking up trash is just postponing the inevitable. The problem is they are still against us, thats what we need to change. Sure, maintenance doesn't hurt, but it's not really the answer IMO. We need them on our side. How? I don't know.

This is my post on the subject from TTORA, basically my feelings on the general subject of "us vs. the FS":

It's obviously not the answer, it didnt get us anywhere with Tellico, sure it kept it open a decade or so, but we need a more permanent solution.

The trails up there dont need maintenance. They are unmaintained 4wd trails. Does every road need to be paved or closed? No.
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I personally hate everytime they pave or widen or create a new road anywhere. It just increases traffic and brings more businesses and more traffic.
The more unpaved, unmaintained roads the better.

Im tired of us jumping through hoops to keep appeasing the FS and these idiots that think they are saving the planet.

I dont want to make any investments that arent going to pay out in the future. All that money SFWDA put into Tellico and it still gets closed.
We could have our own private park by now.

It's sick, but we simply need money and power in numbers and we could do whatever we wanted. Look at Coal Creek.

FWIW.

This thread should be and will be about what to do regarding this piece of land and I'd like to keep it that way. Constructive input is what we're looking for, we're not going to deteriorate into internal bickering and name calling. Too many times good threads have been side tracked by this kind of crap and it's not gonna happen here. So, if you want to start casting insults at another member take it somewhere else.

Was I talking to you? Didn't think so.

Actually I like your Patton quote. It could pertain to the situation. The FS needs to lead us, follow us, or GTFO of the way.

I'm half tempted to start a campaign to convince BO to get rid of the FS, they dont do anything but close the Forest. Sooner or later there will be no forest to service anyway so why not cut'em loose? It will help the national budget.
 
This is my post on the subject from TTORA, basically my feelings on the general subject of "us vs. the FS":

Tellico has some to do with Cullowhee - BUT - don't think you could put all the SFWDA $ in a pot and come out with a private park - it will be subject to the same if not stricter interpreted regulations as a public ORV area.

If you look at this as "Us vs. the FS" then you won't get anywhere. The FS is the boss here. You have to work with them unless you have a better way and I don't think there is a quarter mil available for a lawsuit based on Cullowhee.

Was I talking to you? Didn't think so.

Easier there buddy. tkinze is a core member - very active - and working hard on this situation. I just spent close to an hour on the phone with him discussing strategy. Getting an attitude won't get you anywhere. Wanna get cocky - go to Pirate.

The FS needs to lead us, follow us, or GTFO of the way.

They won't "GTFO of the way" and they won't follow us. They are going to lead and they will lead by how the current administration and current/past policy directs them.

I'm half tempted to start a campaign to convince BO to get rid of the FS, they dont do anything but close the Forest. Sooner or later there will be no forest to service anyway so why not cut'em loose? It will help the national budget.

Won't happen.

Now - lets get back on track. This thread has been very productive and lets keep it that way.

I'm working with tkinze on nailing down the locations on the tank traps and determining why they were put into place. Remember, not all the roads up there are legal. Check out the maps at News Releases and specifically at http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/roads/road_maps/nc_highlands_d.pdf.If a road is not shown on the pdf available in the second link then it is not legal to traverse per the FS. Yes, there are many other roads up there but this is the 'official' document from the FS that shows all legal roads.

The map is dated Sept 01, 2007 and is effective from that date. I do not know what the policy was before that date.

Yes - the pdf map at the above link is bad - but - it is what it is.

As I said earlier, some of us are working to nail down where the new tank traps are and determine if illegal roads are being blocked or legal roads. Once we find that out we can work on the next steps.
 
What I come away with from reading almost all of the LMP is that timber harvesting plays a big part in what they do with access and how they manage those areas - that is what the FS is for afterall - not providing recreational areas for us. From looking at the big PDF map, the majority of the trails we ride are on "non timber production" tracts of land. Only Sugar Creek (including Sugar Creek Gap) and Rough Butt are on "timber production" tracts of FS Land. Cullowhee land falls into Manage Area 4C, upper right section that borders Pisgah NF on the map.
MAP

However, it seems the very goal is to reduce vehicular traffic based on the Preferred alternative in the Record of Decision document. Note the distinction between "backcountry recreation uses" and "roaded recreational uses" throughout the entire read. In other words, they are supporting the backpackers and campers, but not our style of expedition camping.
Land Management Plan: Amendment Five (Both links on this page for the original document and Amend 5 are the same. They replaced the original doc with the amendment doc.)


From pg 21:
Alternatlve E-modifled. (Preferred Alternative)
The alternative balances priorities to achieve all the goals to some extent. Priorities would shift toward establishing desired conditions that mimic natural processes. After synthesizing scientlfic research, systems are established for habitats of forest interior breeding birds and old growth. A flow of early successional habitat is maintained. A high priorlty on diversifying silvicultural systems becomes evident: clearcutting is used only where necessary to rehabilitate damaged ecosystems. Priority is given to key backcountry areas to enhance remote, recreational experiences. Lower priorlty is given to roaded recreation opportunities. Visually senstive areas are protected. High quallty hardwood goals are set at economically efficient levels that can be achieved and sustained through time.

Extracted from pg 12 of the document:
Of the 586,000 acres identified as available for timber production in the 1987 Plan, 527,000 acres were identfied as available for timber production in the plan amendment. This reduction in lands available for timber production was accomplished by adjusting management area boundaries to exclude some lands with sensitive biological, physical, or social values that were previously identified as available for timber production. The following process was used to adjust management area boundaries.

skipped down the page to this paragraph...
Check the backcountry recreation potential of the 'NC Mountain Treasures' booklet and the semi-primitive inventory. Where backcountry recreation settings overlap with old growth, black bear or forest interior bird habltats, choose management areas to accomodate backcountry recreation uses. Also, check the site capabilty to produce high value hardwood. When a high proportion of the area is marginal site quality (less than site index 70) and would be economically inefficient, adjust to management areas not suited for timber production.

From pg 15:
The key difference between timber program versus other methods for providing non-timber benefits is road construction. Roads provide a social benefit by providing access into the forest. Often, roads are seeded in grasses and provide micro-environments beneficial to many wildllfe species. Roads are a social cost when adverse effects to backcountry recreation settings occur when a permanent edge may adversely affect some wildllfe species.

There is no way of measuring quantitatively these social benefits and costs of roads. My decision provides for backcountry recreation and forest interior settings to account for these values. Less road construction should occur in the future and on slopes less steep, thus reducing effects to soil, water and scenic resources.

After reviewing the pattern of management area allocations, I believe future road construction will occur in places that provide higher social benefts than costs.


In the end, I'm not sure where we make our stand. I'm hoping my distillation will make it easier for others to understand and theorize. Perhaps we market ourselves as campers and less to do with 4WD enthusiasts. Remember this plan refers to all NC Managed lands not just Cullowhee. So we've got to be prudent with our actions and words.
 
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I believe the primary problem is that the public's view of what we do is not what people on this board or the people that I wheel with do-that is picking up other folks trash and wheeling/camping responsibly. The public's view is based off of the small percentage of screw ups that trash the place up, spin tires, turn soft spots into mudbogs, and so on. These people really screw it up for everybody, but there is no way to patrol it enough to keep them out. You know only bad stuff makes it on the news.
 
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