The HORROR!

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Well we are only going to see a big upswing of "illegal" wheeling if the trend of shutting everything down continues. This is the inevitable outcome of taking a group of enthusiasts (all wheelers are included) that up tens of thousands of dollars into their hobby and then take away the places for them to do that hobby.
In the late 90's a similar thing was happening in Southern California with drag racers. The government were putting pressure on drag strip owners to close the door because of many noise complaints from local residents (well hell you buy a house next to a race track :hhmm: maybe I should try that with the Charlotte airport and try to get them to close down) This of course led to hundreds of thousands of racers (domestic and imports) that sometimes would have to drive hundreds of miles to do a few passes down a track now before having to go home. So the inevitable happened and organized street racing spiked upwards (think fast n furious type stuff without the BS). I used to love going to street races with my car in high school because it was now the only place for me to race what I had dumped all my after school job money into. It got really bad for 4-5 years and then the government of Cali cracked down big time. New law if you or your car is even caught at a street race you will be jailed for a night and your car will be taken a crushed. That kind of made it drop off again. I guess we'll just wait and see what happens here.
 
We are in a death spiral on this issue. The FS starts closing popular wheeling spots... we all go find other areas to play and they get "over-used" according to the FS so they close them because that's "easy"... and we find somewhere else to go and so on and so on until there is nothing left.

The off-road community is to blame as much as anyone. We don't police ourselves well and I doubt we ever could since we are made up of a bunch of very loosely organized groups, and individual enthusiasts. Many of the enthusiasts suck as responsible members of the community and there is no "Wheeling Law Enforcement Agency" that we can use to hammer down on the morons.

I have no idea what led the FS to start killing the holy land. My guess it was just a noticable increase in traffic, trash etc... and the easy way to fix that problem was to put up traps and shut it down.

Not sure that we will gain much by going to the FS en masse with offers to help... they'll probably see it as confirmation that we'd run the place over if they didn't close it, but I also don't see any other alternative. Do nothing and it's closed. Do something and at least the odds go from zero to something a bit higher than that.
 
eventhough said:
Tellico has some to do with Cullowhee - BUT - don't think you could put all the SFWDA $ in a pot and come out with a private park - it will be subject to the same if not stricter interpreted regulations as a public ORV area.
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You might very well could. A lot of money was dumped into Tellico over the years. At the least I wonder if it's an option to sue the FS for mismanagement. The SFWDA did all they could with their own money with the guidance of the FS right? And it still gets shut down. I'm not trying to turn this into a Tellico thread, but let's not make the same mistake twice with the holy land.

eventhough said:
If you look at this as "Us vs. the FS" then you won't get anywhere. The FS is the boss here. You have to work with them unless you have a better way and I don't think there is a quarter mil available for a lawsuit based on Cullowhee.
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Wrong. The envrionmentalists are the boss. The Forest Service does what the enviros want them to do.
We need to be the boss and figure out how to make it happen.
We have a choice, a vote in who our public officials are. If we feel that our FS is not serving our needs or serving us in the proper means then we can and should change that.


eventhough said:
Easier there buddy. tkinze is a core member - very active - and working hard on this situation. I just spent close to an hour on the phone with him discussing strategy. Getting an attitude won't get you anywhere. Wanna get cocky - go to Pirate.
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I'm on pirate. I wasn't being cocky. My comment simply wasn't directed at him.


eventhough said:
They won't "GTFO of the way" and they won't follow us. They are going to lead and they will lead by how the current administration and current/past policy directs them.
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See above.


eventhough said:
Now - lets get back on track. This thread has been very productive and lets keep it that way.

I'm working with tkinze on nailing down the locations on the tank traps and determining why they were put into place. Remember, not all the roads up there are legal. Check out the maps at News Releases and specifically at http://www.cs.unca.edu/nfsnc/roads/road_maps/nc_highlands_d.pdf.If a road is not shown on the pdf available in the second link then it is not legal to traverse per the FS. Yes, there are many other roads up there but this is the 'official' document from the FS that shows all legal roads.

The map is dated Sept 01, 2007 and is effective from that date. I do not know what the policy was before that date.

Yes - the pdf map at the above link is bad - but - it is what it is.

As I said earlier, some of us are working to nail down where the new tank traps are and determine if illegal roads are being blocked or legal roads. Once we find that out we can work on the next steps.
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What would the next steps be? If they are in fact blocking legal roads, is it possible their is a new map you don't have?

Is it possible they can turn a legal road into an illegal road at the flip of a switch? Like "oops, that was a legal road? now it's not. go away." I think they do that. And right now they can and could probably get away with it.




In January we were up there, I have no idea what road we were on, but it had 4 or 5 huge piles of rocks across it.
I'll find out what road we were on and get back to you so you can invesitgate it.

I'm pretty booked till after October but after that I'd be happy to go up there and do some looking around. I might make a trip uo there early October. If I do I'll post it here.

And I've got plenty of other people in GATTORA who have and interest in this place.
I just dont want to see it go out like Tellico. We need to find a new approach.
If we just had the money and support the greenies have we could get away with anything. Not that I want it that way. But it would be nice to wheel w/o having to worry or keep looking over our shoulders all the time.
 
Next Step in the Process??

Believe me I'd much rather not worry about this crap and just go wheeling with my friends but I'm afraid that's just not realistic if we intend to continue with our sport. :bang:

Steenh you're absolutely right about the spiral effect so the question becomes what to do about it? I don't know all of the answers but but I'm willing to work on it.

As with many times in the past this is another opportunity for this community to put it's money where its mouth is. It's easy for folks to get on the internet and gripe about the problem but it's another to get off the couch and try to make things happen. When the time comes in the very near future I believe it's our responsibility to stand up, so I submit that the bottom line is this: is there enough support that is willing to actually get involved to move things along or are we just blowing smoke?

Eventhough and I had a good conversation yesterday and kicked around a few ideas but it takes more than a few people to make things happen. I think we need information, contacts and a lot of volunteers. Suggestions??
 
I agree with got cope? on a lot of points here. It's a good discussion and one we need to have.

SFWDA operated with the FS on the ground at Tellico with VERY good success for MANY years. The trouble began when the leadership started to change and agendas of the uppers at the FS didn't include OHV areas. So could we have a private park by now? Maybe. But really it's a moot point because at the time there was no indication AT ALL that it could be needed. So I guess my point is that we can learn from what happened there, but the lesson should be to keep up with the top of the food chain at the FS as well as the local Rangers.

As far as the US vs. the FS discussion, IMO it's more of us vs. the anti-access groups. The FS is stuck in between. Think of them like a mealy mouthed boss that just yells at you and takes your red stapler. They are going to cave to whatever agenda they are told to cave to. Anti-access groups use "green" and "good" and "preservation" as their buzzwords to further their agendas. And they have money because who in their right mind is going to come out in this day and age and speak against things that are "good for the earth?" My opinion, we need to create a group that doesn't have 4X4 or wheeling in the title. Call it Friends of Cullowhee or something and then involve multiple user groups. Or be even more sly and call it "Cullowhee Conservation Friends." Cause really, that's what we are doing. We are trying to conserve the existing resources for use by everyone.

And you are right cope, we NEED TO VOTE. Apathy is the single most destructive thing going on right now. People don't vote, they don't write to their elected officials, and they don't let their voices be heard. The foundations on which this country is built are falling apart and all we are doing it watching it happen. There is a good saying my mom uses a lot and it's "s*** or get off the pot." That's where we are folks.

So, what would everyone thing about forming a group (not UC, not GC, not TTORA) but a new group just for the area and having hikers and all users working towards a plan with the FS? We'll need some folks to lead the effort too... (not it, too busy with Tellico, but I can help).
 
got cope? said:
I'm on pirate. I wasn't being cocky. My comment simply wasn't directed at him.
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Gotcope-- it's nothing personal and certainly not directed specifically at you I just don't want the energy of this thread sapped away by bs like I've seen on other thread including Pirate. Just the fact that we keep coming back to this takes away from the real issue and I'd rather we as a group focus on what's important rather than getting mired down in what is not important, nuff said let's move on!

see post above for important stuff.
 
I just had another idea. If there is someone that is interested in leading the charge here, I think that we should get you hooked up with some of the land use gurus out west. The've done this before and have a lot to teach us. We are behind the times out here in the east, mostly because we don't have as much land as they do in the west. Here are some examples of their groups (and I have access to most of their leaders):

Friends of Eldorado National Forest - Home
Rubicon Trail Home Page and Friends of the Rubicon (FOTR)
Friends Of Johnson Valley
 
k9crazy said:
And you are right cope, we NEED TO VOTE. Apathy is the single most destructive thing going on right now. People don't vote, they don't write to their elected officials, and they don't let their voices be heard. The foundations on which this country is built are falling apart and all we are doing it watching it happen. There is a good saying my mom uses a lot and it's "**** or get off the pot." That's where we are folks.
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Let's elect a ringer.

Kinze for Kongress 2010 :hillbilly:
 
I am interested in leading this as Ted and I spoke earlier in the year about trying to establish some partnerships with the FS in GA. I will follow-up with both of you in the next few days after I have read these posts.

A
k9crazy said:
I just had another idea. If there is someone that is interested in leading the charge here, I think that we should get you hooked up with some of the land use gurus out west. The've done this before and have a lot to teach us. We are behind the times out here in the east, mostly because we don't have as much land as they do in the west. Here are some examples of their groups (and I have access to most of their leaders):

Friends of Eldorado National Forest - Home
Rubicon Trail Home Page and Friends of the Rubicon (FOTR)
Friends Of Johnson Valley
Click to expand...
 
pillguy said:
I am interested in leading this as Ted and I spoke earlier in the year about trying to establish some partnerships with the FS in GA. I will follow-up with both of you in the next few days after I have read these posts.

A
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Keep in mind Andrew, this is NC
 
Yes it is NC. But we can talk about GA too when we talk. There are good relationships already in place for Beasley Knob...the only designated full size OHV area in the state (on Federal land). I can introduce you to the folks that work up there too if you want.
 
k9crazy said:
I just had another idea. If there is someone that is interested in leading the charge here, I think that we should get you hooked up with some of the land use gurus out west. The've done this before and have a lot to teach us. We are behind the times out here in the east, mostly because we don't have as much land as they do in the west. Here are some examples of their groups (and I have access to most of their leaders):

Friends of Eldorado National Forest - Home
Rubicon Trail Home Page and Friends of the Rubicon (FOTR)
Friends Of Johnson Valley
Click to expand...

the more I think about this the more it makes sense. Why re-invent the wheel if this has worked for others in the past. I'll shoot a few email over the weekend to the various groups above for information.

Like it or not we need to do something, doing nothing thus far should teach us some invaluable lessons.
 
As copied and pasted from the Old NC site: Per swampthing

"All of these closures are definitely frustrating - I emailed Terry Seyden - FS public affairs officer, asking for explanation of closure plus how we can help...and received this response regarding Tellico/Caney Fork etc:


Quote:
With Tellico we are dealing with a difficult situation with trail system initially located years ago along side the Tellico river and it's tributaries. The other designated OHV trail systems on the Forest are on better locations and we certainly welcome volunteer group help on these trails to make sure we maintain them to standard. Wayehutta OHV Trail system on the Nantahala District, Brown Mountain OHV trail system on the grandfather District, Badin Lake on uwharrie and Black Swamp OHV system on Croatan all remain open and we welcome help on maintaining these.

The Caney Fork situation is different since that area was never designated as an OHV system and Forest system roads and non system old woods roads were simply historically used without agency planning or oversite. Current regs are that unlicensed atvs cannot be used on public open forest roads but can only be used on specifically designated routes which were identified in our 1994 Forest Plan.

Hope this helps. You can check with the individual district rangers for each of the designated OHV areas. You could also talk with our dispersed recreation/ trails coordinator Steve Hendricks.
Seems many of the issues @ Caney are due to ATVs...the other OHV areas listed (Wayehutta & Black Swamp) are ATV use only (sub 50" wheelbase).

Steve Hendricks can be found at: shendricks@fs.fed.us
He was copied on the response, I plan on contacting him and pushing for more 4x4 areas, this could start with opening up the existing OHV trails to larger vehicles."
 
The word I got was the FS was ticked about people coming in from outside of the area with "big mudders" and tearing up the balds, so the effort was to prevent people driving on the balds, not preventing people getting to the balds. It was also said that the rollback's have been pretty busy catching people driving on the balds this year.

One thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about National Forest Land, which is just that, National Forest land NOT a National park or recreation area The NFS is a repository of timber to be consumed by the Federal Goverment at their discretion.

I kinda expected this would happen when Tellico got shut down, folks want to wheel somewhere, anywhere.

I need to look into getting some Tread lightly weather proof signs and place them when needed, just as a reminder to people. BTW we should all read the treadlightly rules from time to time just as a refresher.
 
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delta21 said:
The word I got was the FS was ticked about people coming in from outside of the area with "big mudders" and tearing up the balds, so the effort was to prevent people driving on the balds, not preventing people getting to the balds. It was also said that the rollback's have been pretty busy catching people driving on the balds this year.

One thing to keep in mind is that we are talking about National Forest Land, which is just that, National Forest land NOT a National park or recreation area The NFS is a repository of timber to be consumed by the Federal Goverment at their discretion.

I kinda expected this would happen when Tellico got shut down, folks want to wheel somewhere, anywhere.

I need to look into getting some Tread lightly weather proof signs and place them when needed, just as a reminder to people. BTW we should all read the treadlightly rules from time to time just as a refresher.
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Am I understanding this correctly. The FS would prefer this location to only be enjoyed by locals and not outsiders?
 
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