Starter or Neutral Safety switch

[Darwood]

Sorry to hear that Brett. I had a similar issue with a different cause a while ago:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/73390-80-wont-start.html

If I recall from looking at where the NSS harness plugs in, it isn't so much fun to get to that connector.

Man Brett, with all the problems you've been having with your 80 lately, I'm starting to think that the Rover gods are mad at you.

 

[96r50]

I didn't find it that difficult to get at the NSS connector. Slide under the truck headfirst from the driver's side so that you are looking up at the front driveshaft and the passenger side of the transmission. Unplug the connector and feed it over the top of the transmission to the driver's side to give yourself some extra slack to work with. Then start soldering away!

X2 on replacing both connectors at once. One of mine had completely snapped of in the connector body (causing my intermittant no start) and the other was torn 1/2 way through.

 

[BrettinSanAntonio]

Sorry to hear that Brett. I had a similar issue with a different cause a while ago:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/73390-80-wont-start.html

If I recall from looking at where the NSS harness plugs in, it isn't so much fun to get to that connector.

Man Brett, with all the problems you've been having with your 80 lately, I'm starting to think that the Rover gods are mad at you.

It's more of a lingering problem that's becoming progressively worse. I'd suspect the starter but I've already rebuilt it. I could live with it a bit longer but I'd like to have it cleared up by Jamboree. That's a long way to drive to have a failure.

I curse the Rover Gods. My magic is greater than theirs.

 

[Darwood]

I didn't find it that difficult to get at the NSS connector. Slide under the truck headfirst from the driver's side so that you are looking up at the front driveshaft and the passenger side of the transmission. Unplug the connector and feed it over the top of the transmission to the driver's side to give yourself some extra slack to work with. Then start soldering away!

X2 on replacing both connectors at once. One of mine had completely snapped of in the connector body (causing my intermittant no start) and the other was torn 1/2 way through.

I didn't try to hard to disconnect the connector so maybe it isn't that bad. I never did figure out how to disconnect it though. Every time I try to disconnect a connector it like a new puzzle. Now do I push this little part here, or do I need to pry this...

 

[Romer]

I used a small blade regular screw driver under the base while I pushed on the connector housing and worked it off.

 

[BrettinSanAntonio]

Derek,

After reading your thread, my symptoms are similar, except at this point, I only get the fault 4 out of 10 starts. I'll check the connector in the a.m.

I hope the that's the cause and not the starter. I really don't want to pull that puppy again.

Does the connector actually go to the relay?

Sorry to hear that Brett. I had a similar issue with a different cause a while ago:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/73390-80-wont-start.html

If I recall from looking at where the NSS harness plugs in, it isn't so much fun to get to that connector.

Man Brett, with all the problems you've been having with your 80 lately, I'm starting to think that the Rover gods are mad at you.

 

[96r50]

The current in the starter circuit starts at the battery, passes through fusible links and fuses, then through the ignition switch (switch is closed when the key is at the START position) and then takes a tour over to the glovebox before coming into the NSS as the black-with-white-tracer wire. From there, assuming the transmission is in neutral or park, the current leaves the NSS as the black-with-red-tracer wire and goes to the starter solenoid. It is a fairly easy circuit to troubleshoot (when the problem is present).

In my case (as well as Romer's and TOY350's) the connectors on the two wires were faulty. The black/red trace wire was broken inside my NSS, and the black/white trace wasn't far behind. Your symptoms sound similar enough to mine/Romer/TOY350's that I would strongly suspect the NSS connector. The only other relatively complex part in the starter circuit is the ignition switch (not the tumblers) and it is clean and dry up inside the dash.

Spend half an hour (at most), unplug the connector off the transmission and examine the two larger gauge wires I mentioned above. Disconnect the two wires from the plastic connector body and examine them up close to make sure they aren't separated. This will either be your problem (my guess is that it is), or it will rule it out and let you check the next part of the circuit.

 

[Darwood]

Derek,

After reading your thread, my symptoms are similar, except at this point, I only get the fault 4 out of 10 starts. I'll check the connector in the a.m.

I hope the that's the cause and not the starter. I really don't want to pull that puppy again.

Does the connector actually go to the relay?

Yes, the S12 connector is what the relay plugs into. Now you won't have this wiring unless you have the RS3000 alarm system. I'm not sure if Gulf imported cruisers had that as an option. I recall there being a difference based on port of entry.

 

[JERSEY80]

Inspected the connector at the tranny and it looked good, no broken wires

I then removed the connector and saw a bunch of crap in the contacts.

I sprayed degereaser on it and took a wire brush and then brake clean on it and the contacts mounted on the tranny.

Wiped it all up and she started right up vs wouldn't before I tried the connector

Lets hope thats it. Didn't have a small file that could get down inside the contacts, got the top and probably a little bit inside with the brush plus cleaning the male part from the tranny

I am confused as to why it started before when I tapped the starter other than the slight mechanical movement at the connector caused by pounding the starter

Having much experience in the marine world, a product called "Corrosion Block" works magic on this kind of thing. It's a spray that will literally dissolve the corrosion and can take the place of dielectric grease.

I have sprayed it on my battery terminals and they are shiny and new after 30k miles in the northeast road salt / shore air.

 

[BrettinSanAntonio]

UPDATE: My issue turned out to be the starter. Bummer. I rebuilt it six months ago with the kit from CDan but I guess it was just past it's prime. I didn't have the time to do it myself on this go around so $317.50 later I have a nice OEM rebuilt from Toyota. Does that seem over the top for parts and labor?

 

[raydouble]

UPDATE: My issue turned out to be the starter. Bummer. I rebuilt it six months ago with the kit from CDan but I guess it was just past it's prime. I didn't have the time to do it myself on this go around so $317.50 later I have a nice OEM rebuilt from Toyota. Does that seem over the top for parts and labor?

Yes......but I'm cheap.

 

[BrettinSanAntonio]

It didn't bother me as much as I thought it would. The idea of sneaking out into the garage after the family went to bed and wrapping my fat, bloody knuckles around that starter really sucked. I'm just glad its done and my truck starts right up. If I get another 140K miles out of this one I'll be happy.

 

[raydouble]

What is the total labor time on that?

 

[corsair23]

I confirmed that the A/T Oil Temp, Brake, and Oil Level lamps only come on when the ignition switch is in the start position and the NSS is in park or neutral. If the NSS switch is bad or disconnected, these lamps do no light up

Thought I would add some information and pictures for future reference for folks going through this.

Case subject: '97 FZJ80 w/ ~111.5K miles with a starter "rebuild" (new contacts and plunger) done 6 months prior

My symptoms: Occasional no start. No clicking from the starter, just turn the key to start and silence.

Since I had just replaced the starter contacts 6 months before I figured it must be something else. Although I had checked the P/NPS or NSS before I did the first starter contact replacement job and I found the wires to be ok, I decided to check it again. I was able to confirm a few things:


This picture shows the dash lights/icons that are on when key is in the on position before turning to start. Note this is after the air bag and ABS system checks pass and those two lights/icons go out. IF you unplug the P/NPS or NSS connector, or have no continuity through it (i.e. bad wires), the dashs light will be like this as well when trying to start the 80:




This picture shows the dash lights/icons that will be on when starting the truck with good continuity through the P/NPS or NSS: Note the A/T Oil Temp light and the Low Oil Level icon light come on while the truck is starting (see the voltage drop on the gauge?):




This picture shows you the two 'big' wire connectors that some have had to replace in their P/NPS or NSS connector. One is black with a red stripe, the other is black with a white stripe. As you can see, mine look pretty much brand new despite the ~111.5K miles on the 80.




I read where some have had trouble getting the P/NPS or NSS connector off. The best way I have found to get it off (since it is a tight squeeze) is to take a little flat head screwdriver and press in on the release tab (the tab with ridges in the middle of the connector shown in the above picture) while taking a slightly bigger flat head screwdriver and gently prying the connector up via gently "twisting" the screwdriver head under the bottom of the connector. Do one side of the connector and then the other side and the connector should come off. If you really wanted to make it easier to get the connector off you could remove the front drive shaft but that would be a lot of work just to get to the connector.

Fish the connector and harness over to the DS of the rig (paying attention to how the harness/connector is routed first) in order to gain better access to it. To really get a good look at the wires, you need to remove the plastic locking tab/piece out of the connector using a pick or similar tool (see the next post).

Then you need to release/move the individual wire retention dealyos out of the way while simultaneously pressing the wire clip up and out of the connector. This can take a few tries but I've found two small flat head screwdrivers work well: one for gently prying/moving the wire's locking tab out of the way and one for gently pushing the wire clip up into the connector so that it can be pulled out from the top. If you've done the MAF mod then this should be familiar.

.

 

[corsair23]

Here is a shot of the P/NPS or NSS connector with the plastic locking tab pulled partially out. I'm guessing the whitesh 'goop' is some Toyota proprietary dielectric grease





Since my connector and the wires looked good, I continued on to the starter itself and the contacts.


Here is what my starter contacts and plunger looked like 6 months after the rebuild:







See the "spot weld" on the small contact? Apparently I didn't get the contacts flush AND square enough during the rebuild the last time and one side was higher and therefore I was only getting minimal contact there. Worked just fine for 6 months but . If you read the FSM, Toyota states that you need to put 221 lbf of pressure on the contacts while tightening up the bolts using a block or wood cut to specific dimensions. Not sure how many people have a press or tool that can do this or the proper tool to insure the contacts are square, but I don't. My method has been to use the handle end (wood) of my rubber mallet to press down on the contacts while tightening up the nuts. Worked fine on my LX when I replaced the contacts in that starter but apparently it didn't work out so well when I did the 80...So one for me, one for the starter contacts. It is a tie until the results are in from my latest attempt. I should know in about 6 months time (less) whether I won or the starter won again...If the starter wins then I may just take the starter and new contacts to someone with a press

HTH someone in the future

EDIT: I'm not 1 for 3 on this...The second go around with my 80's starter ended up with the same results after about 8 months (spot weld on one of the contacts) so I took it to a real mechanic (Toyota guru) who cleaned them up and reinstalled them. He said the problem was that I was not getting the contacts perfectly square in the starter and that is just as critical as making sure they are flush. The other hint he gave me was to NOT crank down on the nut when attaching the lead from the battery as this can often end up causing one of the contacts to spin slightly and not be square.

 

[Romer]

Thanks for the info Jeff, This thread should help most non start issues

 

[shocktower]

Inspected the connector at the tranny and it looked good, no broken wires

I then removed the connector and saw a bunch of **** in the contacts.

I sprayed degereaser on it and took a wire brush and then brake clean on it and the contacts mounted on the tranny.

Wiped it all up and she started right up vs wouldn't before I tried the connector

Lets hope thats it. Didn't have a small file that could get down inside the contacts, got the top and probably a little bit inside with the brush plus cleaning the male part from the tranny

I am confused as to why it started before when I tapped the starter other than the slight mechanical movement at the connector caused by pounding the starter

Where is this plug at ,I can`t seem to find it help meeeeeeeee

 

[corsair23]

Where is this plug at ,I can`t seem to find it help meeeeeeeee

Responded to your PM as well but for others that might be looking:

The plug is on the PS of the tranny, toward the middle/front and toward the top IIRC. Thought I had a picture but I couldn't find it

Look up and around the driveshaft...It is there but a PITA to get too...To work on it you need to disconnect it and then fish it over the tranny to the DS. Just pay attention to how it is routed so you can get it back the same way when done.

IIRC what worked for me was to push in on the connector release tab with a small flat head screwdriver with one hand while pulling up with the other. I think I also had to use another flat head screwdriver to gently pry up on the connector from side to side a little bit to get it to come off. If you are really energetic, removing the front driveshaft would give you plenty of room to work

 

[Romer]

Responded to your PM as well but for others that might be looking:

The plug is on the PS of the tranny, toward the middle/front and toward the top IIRC. Thought I had a picture but I couldn't find it

Look up and around the driveshaft...It is there but a PITA to get too...To work on it you need to disconnect it and then fish it over the tranny to the DS. Just pay attention to how it is routed so you can get it back the same way when done.

IIRC what worked for me was to push in on the connector release tab with a small flat head screwdriver with one hand while pulling up with the other. I think I also had to use another flat head screwdriver to gently pry up on the connector from side to side a little bit to get it to come off. If you are really energetic, removing the front driveshaft would give you plenty of room to work

X2

I think its near the shift linkage as well

 

[corsair23]

Found a great picture of the NSS in this thread, post #45:

https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/269427-another-blown-head-gasket-repair-progress.html

The thread is a great read with a lot of great info related to doing a HG job but also helpful on various harness connections (like the NSS) and grounding point in the engine bay etc.

Here is the specific picture of the NSS plugged in - this on the PS of the tranny:



Credit to Shipwreck for the great picture....