spark plug thread (1 Viewer)

[SUMOTOY]

Spark plug nerding

Dan
I prefer NGK's, then Bosch. Most motorcycle manufacturers contract with Denso, as does Toyota as you mention. Aftermarket Denso, they seem to want to go "split-fire" in marketing iridiums with that goofy grooved ground electrode design. I prefer to feel I'm more educated to buy into that? Watching the german force induction motors, NGK iridiums started becoming OE equipped, with the advent of individual coil ignition systems. I suspect this is due to the fact that individual coils could probably arc voltage across a electrode made of a rock, and they will eat up silver, copper and even platinum electrodes at a higher rate than iridium.

Shaun
It gets a lot nerdier to really explain gapping fully. A topgap single ground electrode copper or silver plug is meant to be gapped/regapped. A sidegap multiple ground electrode plug is not designed to be gapped/regapped. An iridium or a platinum plug is not designed to be gapped/regapped. I'd say generally "Gapping down" a better plug design is unnecessary due to the better plug design.

Tapage
Mileage is a tough call, I'm not sure I could get into all the variables. My suggestion is that one pull a random plug every 10k, and ck it to the pictures on the web. IME with iridiums and platinums, unless I suspect spark plugs in ignition diagnostics, I just pick a conservative service interval. IME, multiple pulls/installs of platinums (especially) can cause the tip to get dislodged (can't explain it, but a known entity on even the expensive bosch platinums).

HTH and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX Iridiumed

 

[turbocruiser]

Shaun
It gets a lot nerdier to really explain gapping fully. A topgap single ground electrode copper or silver plug is meant to be gapped/regapped. A sidegap multiple ground electrode plug is not designed to be gapped/regapped. An iridium or a platinum plug is not designed to be gapped/regapped.
HTH and my .02

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX Iridiumed

Scott, yes my man, I totally get that, again, what I'm asking about is is there a plug you are aware about which is either Iridium or Platinum that is already at .6mm? OR, are you simply saying that there is no need to regap either Iridium or Platinum regardless of the stock gap setup? Thanks.

 

[sparkplug]

Wow. That sucks the last thread got deleted. I have a Safari turbo/97 FZJ-80 and was looking at the other thread (using search) before it it was revived for info. This thread seems to have a "not so enthusiastic feel".

CruiserDan would you mind repeating what the MR2 turbo version uses and why? Don't laugh at my user name, I know the irony already.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott, yes my man, I totally get that, again, what I'm asking about is is there a plug you are aware about which is either Iridium or Platinum that is already at .6mm? OR, are you simply saying that there is no need to regap either Iridium or Platinum regardless of the stock gap setup? Thanks.

IIRC, the BKR7 series NGK's I only use in individual coil, high horsepower, high boost turbo applications (20psi+) are pre-gapped from the factory at .6mm. The BKR6 and stock BKR5 series are pre-gapped at .8mm. IIRC II, the Bosch 5DTC coppers are pre-gapped at 8mm, the 6DTC's are pregapped at .7mm and the 6KDEO (triple copper spec plug) are pregapped at .6mm...

I'm sure there is a reason this is important to you... That said, without a lot more knowledge on how Spark Plugs work, I'd recommend you pick the heat range, and take whatever gap it is on all but the single ground electrode silver/coppers. As I alluded to before, I'd be really careful going after a really cold plug with a minimal gap on a single coil ignition, because although the reduced gap will reduce the coil voltage required to produce a spark, the short spark can transfer only minimal energy to the mixture.

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX equipped

 

[cruiserdan]

Wow. That sucks the last thread got deleted. I have a Safari turbo/97 FZJ-80 and was looking at the other thread (using search) before it it was revived for info. This thread seems to have a "not so enthusiastic feel".

CruiserDan would you mind repeating what the MR2 turbo version uses and why? Don't laugh at my user name, I know the irony already.

In a nut shell, all of Toyota's factory forced-induction engines (both supercharged and turbocharged) use a platinum plug that is one heat-range colder than the naturally-aspirated versions of each respective engine family.

 

[sparkplug]

In a nut shell, all of Toyota's factory forced-induction engines (both supercharged and turbocharged) use a platinum plug that is one heat-range colder than the naturally-aspirated versions of each respective engine family.

Thanks.

 

[turbocruiser]

Wow. That sucks the last thread got deleted. I have a Safari turbo/97 FZJ-80 and was looking at the other thread (using search) before it it was revived for info. This thread seems to have a "not so enthusiastic feel".

CruiserDan would you mind repeating what the MR2 turbo version uses and why? Don't laugh at my user name, I know the irony already.

In summary, Safari Systems recommend the BCPR7ES-11 which is gapped at 1.1mm. They recommend running no more than .8mm gap but really recommend taking them to .6mm to adjust to additional power produced by the turbo. This is technically past the "allowed gap adjustment" of the plug and makes for misaligned electrodes if not really really careful with regapping. Does that matter much, probably not, but if you would want to follow their recommendations and not regap the plugs the BCPR7ES on its own is the same thing already gapped at .8mm and whether you run them at .8mm or .6mm that is well within the "allowed gap adjustment." That's All. Hope that Helps.
BTW, what boost level are you at?

 

[turbocruiser]

I'm sure there is a reason this is important to you... That said, without a lot more knowledge on how Spark Plugs work, I'd recommend you pick the heat range, and take whatever gap it is on all but the single ground electrode silver/coppers. As I alluded to before, I'd be really careful going after a really cold plug with a minimal gap on a single coil ignition, because although the reduced gap will reduce the coil voltage required to produce a spark, the short spark can transfer only minimal energy to the mixture.

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX equipped

Scott, the factory stock spec is .8mm, in general with pure copper plugs (you still have not actually answered anything about whether you think that this applies at all to Iridium or Platinum BTW) you gap down for any significant additional power over the stock spec. The commonly considered increment is 50HP and the adjustment is .1mm per 50HP additional.

From NGK's Site On Gapping: "Since the gap size has a direct affect on the spark plug's tip temperature and on the voltage necessary to ionize (light) the air/fuel mixture, careful attention is required. While it is a popular misconception that plugs are pre-gapped from the factory, the fact remains that the gap must be adjusted for the vehicle that the spark plug is intended for. Those with modified engines must remember that a modified engine with higher compression or forced induction will typically require a smaller gap settings (to ensure ignitability in these denser air/fuel mixtures). As a rule, the more power you are making, the smaller the gap you will need.

A spark plug's voltage requirement is directly proportionate to the gap size. The larger the gap, the more voltage is needed to bridge the gap. Most experienced tuners know that opening gaps up to present a larger spark to the air/fuel mixture maximizes burn efficiency. It is for this reason that most racers add high power ignition systems. The added power allows them to open the gap yet still provide a strong spark.

With this mind, many think the larger the gap the better. In fact, some aftermarket ignition systems boast that their systems can tolerate gaps that are extreme. Be wary of such claims. In most cases, the largest gap you can run may still be smaller than you think."

Also from NGK's site on Heat Range Requirements: "Let's make this really simple: when you need your engine to run a little cooler, run a colder plug. When you need your engine to run a little hotter, run a hotter spark plug. However, NGK strongly cautions people that going to a hotter spark plug can sometimes mask a serious symptom of another problem that can lead to engine damage. Be very careful with heat ranges. Seek professional guidance if you are unsure.

With modified engines (those engines that have increased their compression) more heat is a by-product of the added power that normally comes with increased compression. In short, select one heat range colder for every 75-100 hp you add, or when you significantly raise compression. Also remember to retard the timing a little and to increase fuel enrichment and octane. These tips are critical when adding forced induction (turbos, superchargers or nitrous kits), and failure to address ALL of these areas will virtually guarantee engine damage.

An engine that has poor oil control can sometimes mask the symptom temporarily by running a slightly hotter spark plug. While this is a "Band-Aid" approach, it is one of the only examples of when and why one would select
a hotter spark plug."

Lastly from NGK's site on Gapping Precious Metal Plugs: "If adjusting the gap on fine wire or precious metal plugs such as platinum or iridium be very careful not to apply any pressure or prying force to the fine wire center electrode or insulator as they can be damaged. The gap should be adjusted by only moving the ground electrode."


Pretty simple stuff as far as I've "educated" myself; I don't much get what you are actually saying with suggesting that ... is it you or me or some other someone who needs much more education on the subject? You seem to be arguing 100% against what NGK themselves state on the topic. Additionally why are you referring to a really cold plug? It isn't by any means a really cold plug. And why are you referring to the transferring of energy being minimal? That would be easily evident by several things ranging from fouling of the plug, perceived power, possibly economy and possibly emissions too. My plugs look perfect after 10K, I have never recorded a misfire with the plugs properly gapped and my combustion chambers look lovely.

So a suggestion, if you want to educate about any alternate plugs out there let's stick strictly to facts, not "what ifs" ... "the facts" are that after using these specific plugs from NGK (either the -11's or the "-8's") for almost 100K with the turbo everything works excellently. So if there is something better out there I'm totally willing to learn about all other options but you haven't answered about what you were asked and now you are suggesting something might be wrong with what's worked excellently all along. Let's get to the learning here huh? I have admittedly avoided Iridium and Platinum so if there is something out there that you know about after all these twenty years of your experience with specialized sparkplugs, let's have it. Thanks.

 

[Ebag333]

Also from NGK's site on Heat Range Requirements: "Let's make this really simple: when you need your engine to run a little cooler, run a colder plug. When you need your engine to run a little hotter, run a hotter spark plug. However, NGK strongly cautions people that going to a hotter spark plug can sometimes mask a serious symptom of another problem that can lead to engine damage. Be very careful with heat ranges. Seek professional guidance if you are unsure.

So in a N/A 1FZ, would running a plug one range colder make a significant difference? Even be worth it? Would we actually see lower temps?

Yes, I realize that running a colder plug could simply be masking a larger problem (plugged radiator, etc), but for those who have done pretty much everything and are still running a bit on the warm side, could this help them out a bit?

 

[turbocruiser]

So in a N/A 1FZ, would running a plug one range colder make a significant difference? Even be worth it? Would we actually see lower temps?

Yes, I realize that running a colder plug could simply be masking a larger problem (plugged radiator, etc), but for those who have done pretty much everything and are still running a bit on the warm side, could this help them out a bit?

In theory it has to help "some", whether that is truly measurable in your rig as cooling system temperature, I cannot predict, and as you already astutely pointed out, the problem isn't in the combustion chamber it's in the cooling system. HTH.

 

[NKP Garage]

So in a N/A 1FZ, would running a plug one range colder make a significant difference? Even be worth it? Would we actually see lower temps?

Yes, I realize that running a colder plug could simply be masking a larger problem (plugged radiator, etc), but for those who have done pretty much everything and are still running a bit on the warm side, could this help them out a bit?

If you are pinging, then the colder plug may help to bandaid the pinging, but you need to fix the source of the problem instead of going with a colder plug. On NA applications it is a general rule of thumb to keep with the OEM heat range.

I requested it that is why. The thread was hijacked to **** with all sorts of sloppy speculative circular and confusing arguments, and it was impossible to help the audience targeted which was turbo owners in general and Safari System owners in specific, who actually want to follow the manufacturers' suggestions for pure copper plugs. I suggest we all start something greatly more generic so we can talk to all the assorted considerations (electrode material, shape, sharpness, size, heat range etc.) of special plug selections; that would help everyone here instead of the six or so fine folks who actually have the Safari System. Hopefully no harm done.

Understood,just would have been nice to continue the thread with the good conversation that was going on in there. I understand that the original purpose of your thread was to only state a fact of what that particular turbo kit vendor recommended, but I personally didn't see any harm in expanding the conversation to other recommendations around turbo'd 80 series spark plug options, benefits, downfalls, etc... No harm no foul. Let's continue it here

 

[sparkplug]

In summary, Safari Systems recommend the BCPR7ES-11 which is gapped at 1.1mm. They recommend running no more than .8mm gap but really recommend taking them to .6mm to adjust to additional power produced by the turbo. This is technically past the "allowed gap adjustment" of the plug and makes for misaligned electrodes if not really really careful with regapping. Does that matter much, probably not, but if you would want to follow their recommendations and not regap the plugs the BCPR7ES on its own is the same thing already gapped at .8mm and whether you run them at .8mm or .6mm that is well within the "allowed gap adjustment." That's All. Hope that Helps.
BTW, what boost level are you at?

Thanks for the explanation. I am running 7 lbs of boost.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott, the factory stock spec is .8mm, in general with pure copper plugs (you still have not actually answered anything about whether you think that this applies at all to Iridium or Platinum BTW) you gap down for any significant additional power over the stock spec. The commonly considered increment is 50HP and the adjustment is .1mm per 50HP additional.
>...
So a suggestion, if you want to educate about any alternate plugs out there let's stick strictly to facts, not "what ifs" ... "the facts" are that after using these specific plugs from NGK (either the -11's or the "-8's") for almost 100K with the turbo everything works excellently. So if there is something better out there I'm totally willing to learn about all other options but you haven't answered about what you were asked and now you are suggesting something might be wrong with what's worked excellently all along. Let's get to the learning here huh? I have admittedly avoided Iridium and Platinum so if there is something out there that you know about after all these twenty years of your experience with specialized sparkplugs, let's have it. Thanks.

Shaun
Reading NGK's general internet comments is fine, I don't believe that in any way thoroughly covers a pretty complicated topic on Spark Plugs. Nor does it conflict with anything I've said (other than I wouldn't adjust a platinum or iridium). There is no question in my mind that a 1fz motor could run on a pretty wide variety of plug applications in the 5-7 range. The new plug technologies are *designed* to accomodate a wide variety of applications.

I jumped in on your last thread, because IMO it wasn't 'others' that confused what you posted, many of your statements of 'facts' (the biggest "nothing has better conductive properties than copper") seemed out of line to what I understood to be true. And your recommendation that the BKR7ES or any single ground electrode copper plug, was *the* recommended plug for any boosted 1fz seemed downright crazy to me. In retrospect, I'm glad you chose to delete the thread, IMO there was a lot of misinformation you put forth from post 1.

Given copper as your preferred soup du jour, you really want to have a 'big' spark, go multiple side-gapper electrode. A top gap plug such as your BK7ES is the worst thing you can put in your engine comparatively speaking. A long discussion, but I would encourage you to read up on 'air gap' 'surface gap' and 'semi-surface gap' spark. A triple ground or quad ground electrodes more than double the chance of spark propogation and gives a larger spark for a given size gap.

I've spent a lot more time than I normally do on Spark Plugs on this forum, because with the advances in technology, futzing with them is less and less critical. Fact: Bosch claims that there were 80 applications of conventional spark plugs (copper and silver single electrodes) to cover the majority of plug requirements. Since that time, 15 plug applications cover that same majority of requirements.

AND, Safari can recommend a single copper plug, and you can adjust them to your hearts content. The good news is, it's likely you won't have catastrophic failure of the plug either. Me, I look at it and say, with platinum and iridium, you have increased the 4 temperature ranges critical to plug operation. Specifically, these technologies have widened self-cleaning temps, widened operating range temp, increased safety range temp, and iridium has almost eliminated auto-ignition range temp. Added bonuses, you have the best chance of spark propogation, and long life with platinum or iridium.

I've put in hundreds of spark plugs in forced induction motors over the last 25 years, most of them running 15-26psi. I've seen plugs fail during that time. I've seen plugs abused during that time. I stock a lot of expensive turbo application plugs. When I decided to replace the stock BKR5EYA application on my SC truck, it was a no brainer to me to switch to the BKR6EIX iridiums, one range colder. Interesting, that follows exactly what most production car manufacturers choose to do when adding force induction to a family engine, including toyota.

I'm honestly not sure where you are trying to go with this. You don't have to justify putting in a single electrode copper plug and feeling the need to adjust it down to .6mm. If the truck runs, you have successfully installed a spark plug that works into your 1FZ. Recommending that procedure, is not going to be an easy task just quoting NGK i-net guide and, IMO, outdated opinions from Safari?

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX iridium

 

[NKP Garage]

Scott, have you played used the Champion Iridiums at all to compare to the NGK's? I personally don't like Champion plugs in general as I haven't had the best experience with them in the past. But by recommendation of a local turbo nut I swapped the BKR6EIX NGK's that I was running at the time for a set of Champion 9201's. There was no measurable performance difference between the two. The one main thing that I did notice though was that the slight miss at idle with the larger cams I was running and the slight hesitation above 17psi that I was seeing only on the street and not on the dyno was gone. I figured it may be due to new plugs versus plugs with a few hundred miles on them. Swapped in a new set of BKR6EIX plugs and the missing and hesitation came right back. I tried a set of Denso IK20 Iridium's as well. They did even worse than the NGK's

I've looked and read as much as I could but wasn't really able to come to a conclusion as to why I saw the difference. Maybe just a better match for that particular application. Any thoughts?

 

[SUMOTOY]

Scott, have you played used the Champion Iridiums at all to compare to the NGK's? I personally don't like Champion plugs in general as I haven't had the best experience with them in the past. But by recommendation of a local turbo nut I swapped the BKR6EIX NGK's that I was running at the time for a set of Champion 9201's. There was no measurable performance difference between the two. The one main thing that I did notice though was that the slight miss at idle with the larger cams I was running and the slight hesitation above 17psi that I was seeing only on the street and not on the dyno was gone. I figured it may be due to new plugs versus plugs with a few hundred miles on them. Swapped in a new set of BKR6EIX plugs and the missing and hesitation came right back. I tried a set of Denso IK20 Iridium's as well. They did even worse than the NGK's

I've looked and read as much as I could but wasn't really able to come to a conclusion as to why I saw the difference. Maybe just a better match for that particular application. Any thoughts?

Not a lot of application experience with Champion iridium, I certainly looked at them, but they are comparitively new to the game. I presume at 17psi this isn't a FZ app? A couple observations to these iridiums: Champion uses a .7mm tip, the NGK's use .6mm tip, and the Denso uses a .4mm tip. Technically, the Denso has the edge, but compared to a 2.5mm copper/silver, the real gain is minimal, the gain comes from going iridium. Comparing the BKR6IEX to the Champ 9201, it's the same heat range, but a significant difference in gapping, the NGK6's are .032 spec, and the 9201 is .040.

Are you running single coil on the ignition system? I would suspect that an individual coil over plug ignition could see benefit from the 9201, apples to apples. A larger gap transfers more coil energy to the mixture. My Summary Opinion: If running a single ignition coil, that's a pretty large gap, and your coil reserve capacity gets a lot narrower. Suggest a really good aftermarket coil. If it's a multiple coil setup, and it works better, I'd say go with it.

<edit-add> With larger cams, at idle you tend to have a polluted mixture from the increased overlap. Which would require a spark with more energy to get a higher ignition probability. Above 17psi, again you have increased the required spark energy which the 9201 might be giving you. Again, I'd be concerned about reserve coil capacity at higher boost, if this is a single coil application. Before I did the swap between iridiums, I might take a step back and try platinums, the new "laser" series are still OE in a lot of force induction motors.

HTH

SJ

 

[turbocruiser]

Shaun
Reading NGK's general internet comments is fine, I don't believe that in any way thoroughly covers a pretty complicated topic on Spark Plugs. Nor does it conflict with anything I've said (other than I wouldn't adjust a platinum or iridium). There is no question in my mind that a 1fz motor could run on a pretty wide variety of plug applications in the 5-7 range. The new plug technologies are *designed* to accomodate a wide variety of applications.

I jumped in on your last thread, because IMO it wasn't 'others' that confused what you posted, many of your statements of 'facts' (the biggest "nothing has better conductive properties than copper") seemed out of line to what I understood to be true. And your recommendation that the BKR7ES or any single ground electrode copper plug, was *the* recommended plug for any boosted 1fz seemed downright crazy to me. In retrospect, I'm glad you chose to delete the thread, IMO there was a lot of misinformation you put forth from post 1.

Given copper as your preferred soup du jour, you really want to have a 'big' spark, go multiple side-gapper electrode. A top gap plug such as your BK7ES is the worst thing you can put in your engine comparatively speaking. A long discussion, but I would encourage you to read up on 'air gap' 'surface gap' and 'semi-surface gap' spark. A triple ground or quad ground electrodes more than double the chance of spark propogation and gives a larger spark for a given size gap.

I've spent a lot more time than I normally do on Spark Plugs on this forum, because with the advances in technology, futzing with them is less and less critical. Fact: Bosch claims that there were 80 applications of conventional spark plugs (copper and silver single electrodes) to cover the majority of plug requirements. Since that time, 15 plug applications cover that same majority of requirements.

AND, Safari can recommend a single copper plug, and you can adjust them to your hearts content. The good news is, it's likely you won't have catastrophic failure of the plug either. Me, I look at it and say, with platinum and iridium, you have increased the 4 temperature ranges critical to plug operation. Specifically, these technologies have widened self-cleaning temps, widened operating range temp, increased safety range temp, and iridium has almost eliminated auto-ignition range temp. Added bonuses, you have the best chance of spark propogation, and long life with platinum or iridium.

I've put in hundreds of spark plugs in forced induction motors over the last 25 years, most of them running 15-26psi. I've seen plugs fail during that time. I've seen plugs abused during that time. I stock a lot of expensive turbo application plugs. When I decided to replace the stock BKR5EYA application on my SC truck, it was a no brainer to me to switch to the BKR6EIX iridiums, one range colder. Interesting, that follows exactly what most production car manufacturers choose to do when adding force induction to a family engine, including toyota.

I'm honestly not sure where you are trying to go with this. You don't have to justify putting in a single electrode copper plug and feeling the need to adjust it down to .6mm. If the truck runs, you have successfully installed a spark plug that works into your 1FZ. Recommending that procedure, is not going to be an easy task just quoting NGK i-net guide and, IMO, outdated opinions from Safari?

Cheers

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX iridium

Scott, sheesh, if you backpedal any harder than that you are going to blow out both your knees! Now your 25 years (wasn't it 20 years just a moment ago?) trumps APS, NGK and Safari Systems! So as always you take us back to the basic "square one" where you will quote all your experience and expertise, deny even the experts that are all out there saying something different, and insist you and you alone are right. So, since we are on square one all over again. Where did you get/ where are you getting this all this experience and expertise? Meanwhile while you won't answer that simple thing from which you work all your angles, let me clarify that the comment concerning conductivity was referring to the choice between the two plugs mentioned in that thread only which were Iridium and Platinum. Of course silver is much more conductive, so is graphite, so is gold, so are some alloys but we were specifically and strictly comparing Copper to Iridium to Platinum there. I was admittedly not aware that nology made a Silver Plug so that's my ignorance but again we were only comparing three types in that thread. Now, please either add to the learning without telling me/others to "get educated", "read up" or "get experienced"; that is simply insulting and you still haven't really answered anything at all and your last post was grossly wrong - stating that it is simply NGK site notes spelled out doesn't do anything but compromise your credibility.

 

[NKP Garage]

Not a lot of application experience with Champion iridium, I certainly looked at them, but they are comparitively new to the game. I presume at 17psi this isn't a FZ app? A couple observations to these iridiums: Champion uses a .7mm tip, the NGK's use .6mm tip, and the Denso uses a .4mm tip. Technically, the Denso has the edge, but compared to a 2.5mm copper/silver, the real gain is minimal, the gain comes from going iridium. Comparing the BKR6IEX to the Champ 9201, it's the same heat range, but a significant difference in gapping, the NGK6's are .032 spec, and the 9201 is .040.

Are you running single coil on the ignition system? I would suspect that an individual coil over plug ignition could see benefit from the 9201, apples to apples. A larger gap transfers more coil energy to the mixture. My Summary Opinion: If running a single ignition coil, that's a pretty large gap, and your coil reserve capacity gets a lot narrower. Suggest a really good aftermarket coil. If it's a multiple coil setup, and it works better, I'd say go with it.

<edit-add> With larger cams, at idle you tend to have a polluted mixture from the increased overlap. Which would require a spark with more energy to get a higher ignition probability. Above 17psi, again you have increased the required spark energy which the 9201 might be giving you. Again, I'd be concerned about reserve coil capacity at higher boost, if this is a single coil application. Before I did the swap between iridiums, I might take a step back and try platinums, the new "laser" series are still OE in a lot of force induction motors.

HTH

SJ

On that particular car we were running E85, a larger fuel system, and an MSD 6200 and a blaster 3 coil. Nothing too fancy. The gap I measured on the Champion's was actually at .036 out of the box. Didn't re-gap them or anything. Thanks for the input. The information about the size of the tip is very interesting. I'll have to do some more looking in a couple months when I get some free time to mess with that setup again.

 

[NKP Garage]

Scott, sheesh, if you backpedal any harder than that you are going to blow out both your knees! Now your 25 years (wasn't it 20 years just a moment ago?) trumps APS, NGK and Safari Systems!

Sorry to have to bring it to this, but I don't really trust the recommendations as 100% solid from any aftermarket manufacturer/vendor of performance parts. Like any other recommendations or performance products, it should be taken with a grain of salt. Almost always there is going to be better ways to do things other than what they recommend. I personally don't have experience with the Safari turbo kit in particular. But I can tell you this, all of the other turbo kit's that I've dealt with in the past on various platforms have had faults in one way or another, and the recommendations for things like spark plugs have literally been a recommendation of what you should use as a bare minimum, NOT what you should use for maximum performance/safety.

Examples:
* Greddy kits mostly come with horribly inferior oil lines. Most internally gated off-the-shelf turbo kits are not that great at holding boost steadily and require some modification to work better.
* There are sometimes clearance issues with things running into eachother, even though the kit is meant for your particular application.
* And the best is always the debate of whether to use oil restrictors on various turbos. And various vendors recommendations on the topic even if the various vendors are using the same turbo.

Think of it this way. Safari built this kit in what year? What spark plug technologies were available back then, and how readily were they available to the general public? On top of that think of price point, total cost, and marketing a kit. If they recommend that people use a spark plug that costs 30 bucks a piece, are a percentage of people more likely to shy away from the kit because of the added cost? Sure. Along with other little things like what type of turbo they use, materials, types of hoses, etc...

Does that make it a bad kit? Nope. Does that mean that what they recommend is absolutely the best that can be used for the best performance, longevity and overall safe running setup? Nope. It just means that at the time, they picked a plug that they thought would work well and wouldnt break the bank, and they recommended it.

I think the point you're missing here and that we all are going back over and over and over again is that there ARE better plugs out there for your application than the copper plugs you're currently using. Why that point is not getting across I'm really not sure. Can we just have an open discussion thread about the various plugs, their proper applications, the reasons they're bad/good/better/etc... and the benefits of each? Instead of beating this horse to death and questioning eachother's credibility? I personally think that would benefit the community a lot more and some good information would come out of it that can be archived for anyone else that has similar questions to see in the future.

 

[SUMOTOY]

On that particular car we were running E85, a larger fuel system, and an MSD 6200 and a blaster 3 coil. Nothing too fancy. The gap I measured on the Champion's was actually at .036 out of the box. Didn't re-gap them or anything. Thanks for the input. The information about the size of the tip is very interesting. I'll have to do some more looking in a couple months when I get some free time to mess with that setup again.

Baktasht
E85 turbo?! - nice - that's a lot of potential timing advance! And yer stuck with iridiums, platinum plugs don't mix well with nitrous or E85. The Blaster 3 is a decent coil, I've used them myself, but there's not a lot of headroom in it when the oil gets really hot, btdt. IME the Blaster SS and HVCII from MSD hold up better to heat. Given your setup, you might try going for the 1.1 gapped iridium application NGK6, and try again, that should tell you if it's really gap, that's the only true difference between the 9201 plug and the BKR6 you took out. Again your risk is coil headroom, but if you can keep the coil cool enough, the MSD's can jump a gap that big.

Turbocruiser
I'm quite comfortable with the topic of spark plugs at a very nerdy level, and I'm pretty confident you could read my posts and get the information you were looking for, I made sure to include it. The topic of your deleted thread wasn't platinum/iridium vs copper, it was your claim of copper as the 'best' conductor, and BKR7ES as the recommended app for a turbo 1FZ... Nology isn't the only one that makes a silver electrode plug. Moot points, you wisely deleted that thread, thanks!

Shaun, feel free to post up what plugs you end up going when all the dust settles. If you are truly in any spark plug thread to educate yourself, I suspect that you will end up using something other than the BKR7ES you recommend again in this thread. You certainly don't *have* to use something else, the BKR7ES will work in a Safari turbo FZ, you've done it! This thread isn't about my credibility, this thread is about spark plugs. I've put countless hours educating myself on them over the years, and honestly, it's a topic that really doesn't excite me all that much anymore.

And you are right, I do lose count of time... Let's see, my first turbocharged car was a GLH turbo I bought new around this time in 1984. Since that time, I've had at least 1 modified turbocharged car in my garage ever since (currently, I have 2 turbocharged audis at 22psi+, and 1 SC 80 at 7.5psi). 25 years seems about right? I started getting paid for working on them in 1989, that's 20 years.

Carry on and cheers!

Scott J
94 FZJ80 Supercharged
BKR6EIX equipped

 

[turbocruiser]

Sorry to have to bring it to this, but I don't really trust the recommendations as 100% solid from any aftermarket manufacturer/vendor of performance parts. Like any other recommendations or performance products, it should be taken with a grain of salt. Almost always there is going to be better ways to do things other than what they recommend. I personally don't have experience with the Safari turbo kit in particular. But I can tell you this, all of the other turbo kit's that I've dealt with in the past on various platforms have had faults in one way or another, and the recommendations for things like spark plugs have literally been a recommendation of what you should use as a bare minimum, NOT what you should use for maximum performance/safety.

Examples:
* Greddy kits mostly come with horribly inferior oil lines. Most internally gated off-the-shelf turbo kits are not that great at holding boost steadily and require some modification to work better.
* There are sometimes clearance issues with things running into eachother, even though the kit is meant for your particular application.
* And the best is always the debate of whether to use oil restrictors on various turbos. And various vendors recommendations on the topic even if the various vendors are using the same turbo.

Think of it this way. Safari built this kit in what year? What spark plug technologies were available back then, and how readily were they available to the general public? On top of that think of price point, total cost, and marketing a kit. If they recommend that people use a spark plug that costs 30 bucks a piece, are a percentage of people more likely to shy away from the kit because of the added cost? Sure. Along with other little things like what type of turbo they use, materials, types of hoses, etc...

Does that make it a bad kit? Nope. Does that mean that what they recommend is absolutely the best that can be used for the best performance, longevity and overall safe running setup? Nope. It just means that at the time, they picked a plug that they thought would work well and wouldnt break the bank, and they recommended it.

I think the point you're missing here and that we all are going back over and over and over again is that there ARE better plugs out there for your application than the copper plugs you're currently using. Why that point is not getting across I'm really not sure. Can we just have an open discussion thread about the various plugs, their proper applications, the reasons they're bad/good/better/etc... and the benefits of each? Instead of beating this horse to death and questioning eachother's credibility? I personally think that would benefit the community a lot more and some good information would come out of it that can be archived for anyone else that has similar questions to see in the future.

Bak, I think that most of the points that you make here are very valid. However, as an interest in curiosity I'd suggest you take those constructive criticism skills to the Safari System; I think that you would find that almost everything is excellently designed, everything works well together, everything fits well together and it lasts and lasts and lasts. The majority of their own market (definitely not targeted to North America) is not incredibly cost conscious at all so I think the one argument about using a less expensive plug to make a less expensive kit is probably not very valid. And the majority of their market operates their systems in climates and environments much harsher than anything that we will see here. To be fair it is a good point but also to be fair there's an incredible difference between APS stuff and most of the Greddy stuff I've seen. But anyway and again you make a lot of very valid points here. Props for that.

One thing that I would want to clear though is that I actually am somewhat open-minded about another performance plug selection and I absolutely love the learning that comes from any proper archive here.

The problem is that Scott starts off by suggesting several plugs with the wrong heat range, some of them two ranges off and when I ask about that he then argues that many manufacturers are off on required heat range. Next he suggests several plugs with the totally wrong nomenclature, and although according to him I'm the one that should have some education on the subject, I have to ask about that so he can correct it. Next he tries to call a NGK 7 range plug a "really cold plug", is it cooler than stock, sure, is it a "really cold plug", hardly. Next he suggests that .6mm is a "minimal gap"! Come on crank down to .4 or even offerings as small as .25 mm and then talk about minimal gap. Next he suggests I might not make complete combustion with that "minimal gap" of .6mm when that is so simple to detect in so many simple ways. Next he suggests that regapping plugs was what was really only required with coppers due to their limitations and yet many modern manufacturers making modern precious metal plugs still allow and actually recommend regapping plugs if performance of the modified engine is significantly higher than the performance of the stock engine running that particular plug. Lastly he suggests that the "simplistic" information in manufacturers' tech papers is such a scratch on the proverbial tip of the iceberg compared to what he has amassed over his 20, no wait 25, no wait 30 years in business but he has yet to ever share his "secret" location where he's worked on the Bat Mobile and other exotic offerings in all the time he's been here!

He's done exactly this exact deal here only this time he's not promising to bring the NASA Engineers to the table to prove "us" wrong. In my greatest ghetto voice," Ohh yes heeee diiid do dat!" Yea, I'd be a bit of a liar to say that it isn't irritating (not personal). But irritating goes really rapidly to "insulting" (yes, personal) when he throws in the "you got to get more educated" crap when at the same time the stuff he's saying is so wrong. It is irritating indeed and while I actually admit that I like the guy, the posturing he presents with sort of causes a reflex reaction. Not an excuse, just an explanation and for what its worth I've shared all this with Scott privately prior to getting my gumption up enough to post it publicly. Anywho ... believe it or not if Scott would post a plug up from the start with the right heat range and the right resistor type and the right size and shape I'd actually probably try it. If he continues to make major mistakes with these things, I won't.

Meanwhile, I'd also like to learn what you think would be a better plug and I'm asking a few other folks with extensive experience what they think including the technician I talk to at Safari from time to time. I again admit an active avoidance of anything other than the pure copper plugs so in honesty and humility I have to admit that something out there might be better. That's really why I'm here so I'm sorry if it seemed anything other than that. If I can get equal performance with longer plug life, hoorah, seriously. If I can get even more performance with longer plug life, hoorah squared, seriously.