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SOS on birfield job - long axle side

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by Riley, Nov 23, 2003.

  1. Riley

    Riley

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    Help - Semlin and I are doing his birfs and on the driver's side long birfield (axle) there is a "disk" inside loose in the tube. It looks like a inner oil seal except no rubber lining and there are 2 small holes in the face. We can't get the axle back on without threading thru this (which is just about impossible since we can't stand the "thing" on end.

    What the heck is this thing?

    Help please as we are stuck.

    Riley and Simon
     
  2. Klunky Chris

    Klunky Chris

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    I don't remember any such thing when I did my 93 :eek:
    is it an axle oil seal that got punched INto the axle, as opposed to being pulled out properly?!?

    I assume you are saying the *disc* is near the knuckle side of the axle and not the diff side? I do remember having to futz with the DS axle quite a bit before I got the end into the diff properly.....

    good luck, and hopefully someone with more brains than me can give you advice ::)
     
  3. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    Crap,

    That is the guide to help ge the axle in the side gear.

    It's loose in the housing?
     
  4. Riley

    Riley

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    Yep. it's loose in the housing.

    What do we do?
     
  5. Safado

    Safado

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    I'm trying to invision what you are going through and it sounds like you may have to take apart diff to get that back in place and to get everything to line up. Do you have an FSM with the parts diagram? That may be helpful for you to see what is happening.
     
  6. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    I believe we have a plan of action in place.
     
  7. offroadkid

    offroadkid

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    I have a blown-up pic of the front diff from my service manual, but it's for a 92 without lockers. If someone could help me figure out how to post it here, I will.
     
  8. offroadkid

    offroadkid

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    It's already scanned in and saved into my doc's.
     
  9. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    The problem is that a locating disc that lies about 2 inches inboard of the shaft seal has beed dislodged. The FSM is worthless in this case as the offending party is not a separate part.
    Simon was able to fish it back out to the end where it belongs and has wedged it in place. He now is dealing with re-installing the spring on the seal. If the plate will hold long enough for him to get the axle in he should be ok.
     
  10. offroadkid

    offroadkid

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    How can I avoid this from happening to me whn I do mine? :eek:
     
  11. Riley

    Riley

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    ok, good news is the disk thing is more or less seated where it's supposed to be and we can slide the axle through without moving it. Bad news is that we had to wreck the inner oil seal because the spring came out. Note to self: buy an extra inner oil seal next time when doing this job. Will have to pick one up from dealer and continue. looks like it will come together.

    I think this thing was loose on the axle when we pulled it out.
     
  12. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    Riley/Dan,

    That is bad news indeed. It is my understanding from reading a post by Christo that that sheetmetal guide is tackwelded to the inside of the axle housing. If so, and it's broken loose, pulling it into place so it's temporarily jammed so you can use to get the axle into the diff side gear is only a small part of the solution. At some point down the road wouldn't you expect it to simply come loose again - this time scoring the axle and putting a bunch of metal filings into the diff? I think Christo actually posted a pic of his after it had gotten done rattling around in the axle tube - not pretty.

    That's a major bummer. As ugly as this sounds, it might require the thing to be bent up and pulled out of the driver's side end (US). After all, it does nothing after the axle's been engaged with the differential. The challenge then becomes getting the axle in there without tearing up the axle seal by smashing it. Could this be accomplished by removing the differential access plate? i.e. lifting the axle tip up into the side gear with a screwdriver while someone else feeds the axle in carefully from the outer end? It would add hours to the job, but might be a better alternative than having that thing come loose again and start riding on the axle shaft.

    Either that or having it tack welded into place again (not sure if this is possible via the small seal hole). Yowza.

    Edit - If this thing was knocked loose previously, then you'd see marks on the axle and the part would be chewed up a bit. It's awfully easy to hit it hard with that long section of axle (30lbs?) like a battering ram and tear off those tack welds. Perhaps we should be adding this in to the instructions for a birf rebuild now that it's happened a few times so nobody else runs into it?

    DougM
     
  13. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Moderator

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    Doug,

    There is no access plate to remove. Installation of the shaft without the end plate would be difficult at best. I don't know how the plate is attached in the first place. I would imagine that it is welded but I don't know, It could be a press fit. If it is welded it sure seems to come loose easily. I have an extra housing that I looked at this evening. I can't tell how the plate is secured. If it did come loose it would be held captive by the axle shaft. I agree that that is not a good thing but I'm not sure about how to resolve it.
    There is a hole in the top of the housing where the LH brake hose fitting bolts up. It may be possible to make a "sling" out of mechanic's wire and run it up thru the hole and then pull it out after the splines are seated.

    D-
     
  14. PHAEDRUS

    PHAEDRUS

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    riley,
    If your local stealer cant find you the seal I have a spare in the back of the pig. call me tonight or in the morning at work( simon has the numbers)
    Dave
     
  15. sleeoffroad

    sleeoffroad Supporting Vendor

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    No. both sides. Although without it, it is easier to get the short side seated.
     
  16. sleeoffroad

    sleeoffroad Supporting Vendor

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  17. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    That's amazing - press fit. Considering how effective a hammer the long driver's side axle is when you accidentally whack that thing, it's a HUGE oversight on Toyota's part to not include a warning in bold print in the FSM, eh? You get some guy in a hurry who gives that thing a couple thumps on reassembly, and what a pain in the butt you've got. Next time mine come out, I'm gonna really take it easy sliding the axle shafts back in.

    Thanks for chiming in, Christo. I was going to PM him to call you directly as I recalled you were aware of this little thing.

    DougM
     
  18. Riley

    Riley

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    Ok, for the record, here's where we got to today on Simon's truck:

    Simon managed to get the "inner axle plate" pulled back into position. I hope it's in the correct position but I'm not sure. For sure we didn't pull on it with a suitable tool, so it's likely to fall back off if it's a press fit. Over the past few hours of Sunday night "family time", I was thinking of exactly what Christo suggests which is to drill in a hole and tap it (perhaps 2 - one on each side of the tube). This setup could be used as a sling as Dan points out (great idea).

    Christo - please confirm that the inner axle plate needs to be pulled towards to birfield end of the tube in order to seat it.

    Also is this inner seal puller a standard tool or a Toyota SST? Sounds like we're going need one.

    Here's some other ideas I've been thinking on.

    1) Leave the axle out and plug the end with a rag and get Simon's truck back on the road. Here's some questions on this approach:

    a) With no CDL switch, is there an easy electrical mod to lock the center diff (sorry I know I should look this up somewhere)?
    b) I've got a CDL switch for my 95 that's not installed yet, but for Simon's 93 is that a different switch?
    c) Assuming that we get the CDL locked - Do we need to pull the short axle to get back on the road?

    This at least get's Simon's truck back to his place and gives us time to resolve this properly.

    2) I guess the easiest/best approach is to use the inner seal puller and pull it firmly into position and then be done with it. If that's not possible I'm thinking #3.

    3) Destroy the plate and remove from the axle tube (not sure how hard but sounds difficult without pulling the diff). Then drill and tap "helper" holes.

    It's Simon's call as it's his truck.

    Thanks for all your guys help today. This was a major hassle and it's great to have the support of Dan and others on this site.

    Note to other newbies - don't let our experience deter you. Simon and I did my truck a month ago or so and it went without a hitch. I do recommend buying an extra axle tube seal and also inspecting the tube with a flashlight before putting the axle back it. As Doug suggests don't slide the axle on this inner plate without some support of your hand.

    Stay tuned, this isn't over yet. :banana:

    R
     
  19. IdahoDoug

    IdahoDoug

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    Riley,

    How far's he going, and does he have lockers? I think you'll have a tough time stopping the front diff oil from leaking if you have enough to drive it. Wait. Forget the locker question. Irrelevant. Get the CDL engaged, and pull the front drive shaft - 8 bolts and far easier than screwing with pulling the short shaft. Put penetrating oil on them ASAP. Be sure to put paint stripes or something on the flanges for reentry.

    I'm not sure about the CDL, but I thought I'd read a post that you can put the truck in low range (engages the CDL), then pull the CDL actuator wiring plug and it will remain locked until it gets power to move the acuator again. Anyone substantiate this?

    DougM
     
  20. lovetoski

    lovetoski SILVER Star

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    The exact same thing happened to me on my ft axle rebuild a few weeks ago. I knocked the guide out of place, and seriously munged up the oil seal trying to install the birf w/out the guide in place. I made a press from 3/4 all-thread and pressed the guide back into place. It was very difficult to get it seated correctly. I ended up chamfering the leading edge of the guide so that it would slip into place more easily. (Their apprears to be a small seat that it slips into.)

    Even after pressing back into place, I'm not sure it's in there very tight. I knocked it out three times while reinstalling the birf before getting it in right. (Had to take off the diff each time to use my all-thread press.)

    I've been thinking that some monofiliment fishing line run through the holes in the guide could help hold it into place while installing the birf. If you run the mono as a continous line, then once the birf is in place, you could just pull the fishing line back out.