SOS on birfield job - long axle side (1 Viewer)

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Ok - indexing ring, good name & bad design. :banana:

The objective to getting on the road would be to drive for a few weeks (I think) not just home. So with the CDL engaged and drive shaft pulled, we wouldn't need diff oil?

Isn't the diff spinning anyway with the short side axle in place?

On the diff housing access plate - I assume we would have to pull the diff to actually use these ideas of driving in the indexing ring. I think pulling the diff is beyond our skill level.

Other notes - this birf had blown up last spring and was repaired by some :banana: shop. Anyway if you think about a birf blowing up and the axle flopping around in the tube, no wonder the index ring gets unseated.

To those folks who are thinking about letting their birfs go for 160K or so, think again. Even if you don't mind spending money on expensive parts, fixing something like this is a real pain.

lovetoski - when you say "pulled the diff 3 times" you don't mean pulling the entire diff do you? Sounds tough.

My current thinking is to start off planning on pulling tight with an inner seal puller and if that doesn't work then plan B would be to get it back on the road with the axle pulled. It then becomes a choice between driving the indexing ring back into place OR go with the drilling/tapping an access hole.

FYI - we had a heck of a time putting in the axle and it was after an hour of trying in vain did we notice the ring lying in the tube. Safe to say, installing the long side axle without the indexing guide ring is impossible (unless you use the access hole mod.

Besides the PHH, this is the second bad design I've seen on this truck. If there's only 2 I can handle it as long as I know about them before they are an issue.

Riley
 
Yes, to drive it around on a daily basis you'll have to pull the other axle, and have the CDL definitely and positively engaged. I suspect the axle can be sealed with the drive plates and the little caps on the plates in place as normal. There's no way I can think of to refill the diff as it would simply run out the axle housing and out the steering knuckle sweep seals. So the front shaft's gotta come off as well to prevent front diff damage if it will be driven around.

Man, what a pain, eh?

Doug
 
Somebody should design an 80 axle cork that seals the end of the axle tube. It could be engaved Ih8mud.com on the end and Woody could sell em for $20.

Yep - she's a royal pain in the ass but we'll get her licked. It might take awhile however.

Doug - I can see why you never let another mechanic touch Bessie. :(
 
"Doug - I can see why you never let another mechanic touch Bessie."

You know, there are some things I just don't give a flyin' rat's ass about. And my vehicles are not in that category, so I do it myself and I do it right. The reason I probably would never run into this problem is this selective anal retentiveness to them. I specifically recall being extremel attentive putting the axles back in. I very deliberately slid them in slowly and had rubbed them with fresh grease as well as held the weight off the seal (and by default this indexing ring thingey). But you can bet your ass I'll be inspecting mine next time I repack, and even more cautious.

DougM
 
What is the guide made out of? Metal? I never even noticed it... ::)

If metal...could one pop a little tack on there to ensure no slippage? Is there tolerance enough for a small tack bubble inside the housing?
 
I never noticed this ring when I did my birfs, so this could be a totally whacky idea.

But what if you made a "second" indexing ring, slightly smaller in diameter than the axle tube and slid it over the axle at a position just outboard of where the oil seal would be (you could retain it in position on the axle with some wire ties)? This ring could even be made out of some sort of plastic to reduce the likelyhood of causing any damage. Then when you would insert the axle, the new ring would center it and hopefully allow it to engage properly.

So long as it was just slightly smaller than the axle tube, it shouldn't rub on anything when running and should be pretty harmless I would hope. The real problem I would envision is that the original indexing ring is likely flopping about in the diff ala Christo (or may soon be doing so).

I actually like the idea of the drilled/tapped hole to allow the screwdriver to center the axle--that's good thinnin. Again, problem is still what to do about the original indexing ring...

Tom
 
Hmm... great thread. Just thinking out loud here, but what if you had a long skinny powerful magnet that you could drop through the breather hole? The main assumptions here are that one exists, and it would stick to the axle shaft, obviously. But the "threaded hole" is already there, and if you have both axles out at the same time it's possible to see through the diff, so a helper with a flashlight could help with alignment from the other side. So that's one guy on the short side with a flashlight, one guy in the middle with the magnetic alignment rod, and you on the long side pushing the axle. I am so glad my rings are in tact, I hope I never have to deal with this.
 
The ring is stamped sheet metal. As Christo observed it is about 2 inches inboard of the seal and it has a lip in the opening that faces outward toward the seal. A small 2 jaw puller that can be setup to have the jaws face outward could be used to pull the plate back into postion. A puller that has a slide hammer would be perfect.


D-
 
[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]
Christo - please confirm that the inner axle plate needs to be pulled towards to birfield end of the tube in order to seat it.
[/quote]

Yes, it needs to be pulled outwards. Also, If I remeber correctly, the hole is at the top and the concave side is inwards.

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]
Also is this inner seal puller a standard tool or a Toyota SST? Sounds like we're going need one.
[/quote]

It is a OTC Tool. I have to find the part numbers.

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]

Here's some other ideas I've been thinking on.

1) Leave the axle out and plug the end with a rag and get Simon's truck back on the road. Here's some questions on this approach:
[/quote]

Yes, you can do that. Drove back from Moab to Denver. Catch is you do not want that ring to end up in the diff.

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]

a) With no CDL switch, is there an easy electrical mod to lock the center diff (sorry I know I should look this up somewhere)?
[/quote]

Yes. should be possible on the diff by jumpering some pins. Don't have the details here.

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]

b) I've got a CDL switch for my 95 that's not installed yet, but for Simon's 93 is that a different switch?

[/quote]

Yes,

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]

c) Assuming that we get the CDL locked - Do we need to pull the short axle to get back on the road?
[/quote]

No need. But I would probably pull the driveshaft.

[quote author=Riley link=board=2;threadid=7943;start=msg67097#msg67097 date=1069654992]

2) I guess the easiest/best approach is to use the inner seal puller and pull it firmly into position and then be done with it. If that's not possible I'm thinking #3.

3) Destroy the plate and remove from the axle tube (not sure how hard but sounds difficult without pulling the diff). Then drill and tap "helper" holes.

[/quote]

Pulling the diff is not that difficult. Especially if you already have one axle pulled. That would be the best way, although getting it seated on the long side is a pain. I did the short side from the diff end and was able to start the ring by hand. You won't be able to reach it on the long side.
 
Yes, the switches are certainly different from a dash fitment standpoint but the electrical connector is the same. Therefore you could plug it in and let it dangle as a temporary setup. Not ideal but it would work.

D-
 
I find this thread interesting as well :D

I could never figure out what kept the diff end of the axle shaft from falling down and never meeting at the diff. Now I know. This ring effectively acts as a pivot point during install. Because of this, it needs to be just inside of the end of the axle. Too far in and you can't pivot on it. Having it on the outside and you can not pivot at all. The tapped hole is sounding like the best alternative method (even if you have the ring in place).

Knowing this pivoting action will likely make the install easier next time (providing we can get the guide ring back firmly in place). It means that you need a little downward pressure to lift the far end. Chatting with the guys on the assembly line would come in handy. The FSM should really mention this. I bet the mini-trucks with the solid axle are the same design. :banana:

R
 
Is the index ring flat or does it have a lip (like a freeze plug) ?

If it had a lip and could be located, a small hole drilled at 3 & 9 o'clock would allow a plug weld.....

Jim
 
Hey Christo - I found a OTC seal puller with part number 4508. They can't give the dimensions and thus I'm not sure if it will fit into the opening.

Is it easy for you to confirm if this OTC number is correct?

EDIT: Never mind, found that tool on the net, totally wrong, sorry for asking.


Edit - found another tool online -

Would this work?

http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2581

Another edit (notice the no pad eh?) -

Here's an OTC tool part number - OTC7947

http://www.otctools.com/newcatalog/detail.php3?id=215
http://www.otctools.com/newcatalog/products/215_3.tif

note: OTC site sucks for speed.

OK - back to work or I'll need to sell my house with Simon's truck still in the garage/shop.
 
Wow, so it's barely inside the inner oil seal. I guess if you just gently slide the axle in supporting its weight with your hands as much as possible to protec this and the seal, you'd be good. Only using it at the end when you need it as a pivot point.

It's so close that it makes me wonder if the area could be cleaned by wiping, then shooting it with brake cleaner and a bit of epoxy used to hold it in place. The good epoxy of course - not the latest fast cure crap at the big box stores.

DougM
 
Hi folks, I am a little late to the party since I have no net access at home and had some work to do this morning, but since it is my truck I thought I should pipe in! Major thanks to Riley and his spouse for involuntarily hosting my truck while this is sorted out! Thanks to all here for their help and suggestions, especially Dan who rolled up his sleeves at dinner time on a Sunday to pitch in long distance. Also, Christo, thanks for the other link with the photo, and for the phone chat

First off, I am very sure no one banged the axle shaft hard enough to jar this piece loose when we were reinserting the axle. It was either already lying in the shaft, or else already so loose it came off from light contact. The shaft was previously removed and reinserted after the birfield broke in February so if the birfield break did knock this ring loose, either the mechanic somehow managed to thread the axle with the ring lying in the shaft (from personal experience, this would be a miracle) or else he rethreaded the axle through the index ring but it worked loose on the axle.

I suspect the latter because I have got the thing lightly wedged right now so I can thread the axle through it. I also don't think it can damage the diff while spinning on the axle. Christo's looks that way in the other link photo because it was loose in the axle housing and bounced inside the diff gears. It can't do that while spinning on the shaft.

Anyway, I favour wedging it in place and threading the axle through, even if it ends up riding on the axle. right now it is very lightly wedged in place, but, unfortunately, it is wedged backwards with the flat side facing out. Can't see how this will make a difference and it will be pretty tough to wedge it in place the other way round (like seating the oil seal from inside the axle!). I was able to slide the axle through it last night without jarring it loose. If anyone can suggest a model for a seal puller that might be able to pull it tighter I am very interested. Also if anyone knows the axle shaft diameter that would tell me the minimum entry size for a seal puller to do the job. I am at work so can't check but I suspect 1.25 inches???

If you look at Christo's photo you will see there are two holes in the index ring at 12 and 3 o';clock. (there are also two more holes at 6 and 9 o'clock you can't see that are right on the corner where the flange bends over). I suspect these are for an sst to seat the ring from the opposite end of the axle. I could hook some bailing wire through the two holes and use a third piece of bent coathanger to pull on the other side of the ring and try to get it wedged better into its housing. From what I can see, once wedged properly, it doesn't make contact with the axle so it may even stay in place.

The other options don't excite me. Cutting it out removes any danger to the diff but I can vouch for the fact it is very hard to seat the axle shaft without it, because 30 minutes of trying to seat it is why I finally checked the shaft and discovered it was loose (I suspect the ring lying in the housing was also interfering with the angle of the shaft). It is also hard on the oil seal to try to seat the axle while resting on the seal alone. However, the oil seal did look ok when I was finished so it is possible. Christo has pulled the rings and drilled access holes to solve the axle threading problem, but my skills don't extend to tapping holes in the axle housing. BTW, Christo's is the best solution if you think you might be breaking a birf any time soon. This would be a major problem on the trail.

It would be possible to pull the other axle and pull the diff and seat the ring from that end. I figure another 5 hours would be added on to the job. No guarantees this would properly seat the ring either.

It would also be possible to pull the axles, drive it to a weldshop and get them to tack weld something in place as per shed guy's suggestion (or maybe get someone to tap an access port as per what Christo did). Problem is I don't want to drive it with the ring loose in the axle housing because if it gets in the diff it can crater something.. Plus this means installing a CDL switch when it arrives (currentlyu on order) tearing down the p-s side and pulling the axle (we just finished assembling it), reassembling the D/s, then, after the welder is done, disassembling and reassembling both birfs. In other words, about 12 hours extra labour.

Anyway, I am still working on it...
 
Well I don't mean to seem cocky but drilling and tapping should be doable (even for us). I was present for that day at tech school. I'm a little worried about the shavings ending up in the axle housing. Also not sure if my 12volt cordless drill OR black decker drill will be able to drill through the tube. Anyway doesn't sound like Simon's preferred approach.

I guess if a guy was going to do this, it would be best with the diff removed so that the shavings could be cleaned out.

Another question. With the axle removed, is the spindle strong enough to support the wheel? I assume so but had better ask just in case we explore that option.

In regards to Simon's point of just threading it through and not having it secured - Would it end up lying on the diagonal on the axle shaft and then start spinning because it would bind on the axle?

I think to use one of the seal pullers above, we would need to get the thing the right way around.

Simon - my wife wouldn't mind sharing the garage stall if only you could come out every morning and scrape her windows for her. :D

R
 
Riley, I missed the whole of tech school ;)

I think Christo pulled the diff before tapping. I dont have a tap and die set and unless I pulled the diff I wouldn't know where exactly to drill, nor how to keep the shavings out of the diff.
 
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