Safest way to negotiate a potentially slippery dangerous trail with the 80: CDL etc?

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e9999

Gotta get out there...
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wondering...
I was on a trail yesterday, with big dropoffs (hundreds of feet, hello!) on one side so potentially lethal. Trail was narrow, mostly dirt with some rocks and the occasional dust/sand patch, and every so often was washed out with big ruts and slides on the steep side.
Clearly, having the rig slide sideways would have been disastrous.
Sooo, what do you think is the safest way to negotiate this hardware wise to be least likely to slip sideways? I have the CDL mod on and full lockers.
With CDL locked? High? Low? No end locker on I guess?
Opinions?
thx
E
 
darn it, thinking some more about this, seems like i must have used the worst possible combo yesterday as I was fully unlocked everywhere. Seems that if I had, say, just one rear wheel slipping near the edge that I would have lost all traction, rear and front (unless the VC would kick in or does that take too long?) and could just have gone slowy over the edge.... sheesh...
Maybe should have at least the CDL locked so the front could pull me out of a rear-sliding situation?

What about locking the rear if terrain permits? Counterproductive as far as slipping sideways?

hmmm... maybe it was a bit unwise to tackle this trail with so little serious offroading experience...

E
 
Me, I'd lock the center and rear's.

Lock the center to have real 4wd. Lock the rear's to have the ability to really get on it if you need to.
 
e9999 said:
darn it, thinking some more about this, seems like i must have used the worst possible combo yesterday as I was fully unlocked everywhere. Seems that if I had, say, just one rear wheel slipping near the edge that I would have lost all traction, rear and front (unless the VC would kick in or does that take too long?) and could just have gone slowy over the edge.... sheesh...
Maybe should have at least the CDL locked so the front could pull me out of a rear-sliding situation?

What about locking the rear if terrain permits? Counterproductive as far as slipping sideways?

hmmm... maybe it was a bit unwise to tackle this trail with so little serious offroading experience...

E

E9, You will no doubt get various answers here to your question. It is very difficult to say with any certainty what would have been best without seeing the trail you were on.

Experience... will always serve you best in making these decisions in the future. So take advantage of the advice that will be given here and then make it a point to join up with
some offroaders that can sort of show you the ropes.

Because you have the CDL mod and diff. locks, you have the ability to make choices that some others can not, so that is a good thing. Knowing when and under what conditions you should do so is another thing, and is the whole purpose of your question.

GENERALLY, if you are in a "sidehill" position and there is limited traction due to things like snow, ice, mud, shale or very loose earth....then a fully locked diff. will tend to let the vehicle slip to the low side when it loses traction. Sometimes being locked front and rear results in the rear trying to "push" the front when you are trying to turn, and this might also cause you a problem on a narrow trail.

There are many senario's I could site that would contradict what I just said and that is the reason I encourage you to go out with others and gain some experience on some of the more difficult trails so that you can make your own decision based on your driving skills, the capabilties of your rig (not the one that went before you) and so on.

Just my 2 cents. Great question!
 
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Sidehilling is what you were doing, and it's one of the most dangerous things to do. I'll agree with the "depends" comment above. A different answer would accompany each type of terrain, degree of slope, size and location of bumps, rocks, holes, etc.

What I've taught over the years in these situations is to treat it like you're at maximum cornering speed in a car on the road because the traction situation is similar. A tire has X amount of grip that can be divided between braking, cornering and acceleration as well as various combinations. Since you're on a slope, much of that X is being used when you're at a dead stop. So brake very gently, accelerate very gently, etc. If at all possible, move through the area at a steady speed to minimize your braking and accelerating needs - leaving as much as possible of X to keep you from sliding downhill.

Having said that, you'd use your diff locks in support of the goal of a steady pace through the area. If there's a spot you'll be going over a scary hole and will have a wheel not touching ground, then a diff lock (C/F/R) would be called for. As noted above, the more you lock, the greater the likelihood once you break loose you'll stay loose in this situation.

So, experience is the best teacher here. Play around on sidehills WITHOUT lethal dropoffs to get a feel for it.

DougM
 
thanks for the feedback

not sure what you mean exactly by sidehilling, but the trail -although on the side of steep mountain sides generally speaking- was about horizontal sideways. IOW it was carved in the side of the hill, not on an undisturbed hill side, so generally no major danger of sliding off. Only when it got narrow and washed out, which may have been only 5% of the time. Eh, I'm not completely crazy you know... Just that if I had slid off, I'd be dead. So a relatively low risk venture but with possibly terminal consequences. But I was concerned about the odd sideways slip which is why I'm asking.

Anyway, it does seem like a bit of an ironic contradiction that the end lockers might get you across but could make things worse if losing traction. What's a guy to do?

But am I correct in assuming that I would be better off to have the CDL locked in this kind of situation -or most others for that matter? Any contraindication to locked CDL in general?

thx

E


added: btw, you will not catch me going along a sloped hillside, unless it's only 5 degrees or so, I don't like those... yikes!
also no 4x4 club here unfortunately so group experience not readily available...
 
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My experience has been that a locked axle (or a limited slip one for that matter) will side-slip much easier than a traditional open axle will. I believe that I would start out by having the center locked and leaving the diffs open unless you absolutely need them locked. I was on a crowned road with my Challenger one time and the road was wet. I romped on the throttle and the 500+ lb-ft of torque from my 440, passed thru the 3.23 Sure-Grip, promptly turned me sideways :eek:
 
Open diffs when climbing loose surfaces is the rule I preach! If you're part time, then you can slap 'er in 2 low in the rear and kick 'er back straight but we're not that lucky (most of us anyway)! ;)
 
Just today I was on an off-camber situation and paid too much attention to the wrong thing and slid sideways pretty hard into my snorkel. I beleive if my rear lockers were working I could have either avoided the situation or extracted myself without the 100' of cable and two trees it took to pull my ass off the tree so I could back up.

On a side note, I found a new use for a snorkel. It really does protect your w/s frame if you lean up against a tree just right. Not that I would suggest trying it.

If Ali was a true navagator, he would have thrown himself between the tree and the truck to protect the paint, but... :D :flipoff2:

More traction is always better. If you don't make the wheels spin, locked is better. If you spin the wheels, you will lose traction in both wheels and it will be worse. If you are in an off-camber hard turn situation, unlocked might be better since locked will force one of your tires to break traction.

Not that I really know s*** as I am a 99% web wheelin' newb, but that never stopped me from spoutin' off like an ex-spurt
 
This is a really good thread. Very educational (mainly that I don't know very much and need to wheel with more people).

Would airing down more help for really tricky spots or does that just risk a tire coming unseated at the worst possible moment? I'm not talking about 5psi or anything but something low-er, and then airing back up a bit after?

alia176- can you elaborate on the 2lo/open diff scenario? On loose surfaces, my first instinct would be to 4lo/locked center to try and get the maximum traction. Maybe you are basically talking about a controlled skid to straighten out the rear end if you are wonky?
 
Eric,

I you weren't asking about how to avoid sliding sideways down a hill in your first post, I'll eat my hat.

DougM
 
In the conditions you have described I would be in low range with just the center diff locked. If I was coming to a section where it looked like one wheel would lift off the ground i would lock just the rear. If I was coming to a section where it looked like two wheels may come off the ground, or that the sliders may drag along with a wheel off the ground, then I would be inclinded to lock the front also.

If it looks like I will have to make sharp turns, then I would avoid locking the front. If it looks like the road slopes to the side where I do not want to go, say there are boulders or drop offs on the side, then I would be avoid using either front or rear lockers, unless I already knew that a locked axle was actually necessary to get through.

With respect to not sliding or bouncing off the road, a very important consideration is to use the minimum throttle necessay to get through the obstacle. Often times using the axle lockers is exactly what is needed in order to get through with minimum bouncing and sliding.

I guess the shortest answer to your question would be "It depends!"
 
Eric,
I THINK I know what you are talking about here. more of a logging road with some sandy rutted sections. personally for the conditions I have wheeled in and from what this SOUNDS like I would recommend that you have the center diff locked. end diffs open until you need them. as far as for any off road situation I think a true 4wd is better than an all wheel drive situation. without the cdl not locked up you basically have an awd out there not a traditional 4. I would not advise locking hte diffs down until you have wheeled for a while without them. they will help you in a lot of places but unless you are straingt ahead I think those stated above will prove true. it will be more difficult to drive and handle safely.
I think you are doing the next best thing to joining a club though, you are trying some moderate 4 wheeling on fire roads and fairly safe stuff (so it sounds) that being said look outside the ole tlca form some just general 4 wheeling clubs in your area, you might have to wheel with and pull out some heeps but hey I can think of worse ways to spend a saturday than humbling some heeps down to size.
Dave
 
flintknapper

e9999 said:
thanks for the feedback

not sure what you mean exactly by sidehilling, but the trail -although on the side of steep mountain sides generally speaking- was about horizontal sideways. IOW it was carved in the side of the hill, not on an undisturbed hill side, so generally no major danger of sliding off. Only when it got narrow and washed out, which may have been only 5% of the time. Eh, I'm not completely crazy you know... Just that if I had slid off, I'd be dead. So a relatively low risk venture but with possibly terminal consequences. But I was concerned about the odd sideways slip which is why I'm asking.

Anyway, it does seem like a bit of an ironic contradiction that the end lockers might get you across but could make things worse if losing traction. What's a guy to do?

But am I correct in assuming that I would be better off to have the CDL locked in this kind of situation -or most others for that matter? Any contraindication to locked CDL in general?

thx

E


added: btw, you will not catch me going along a sloped hillside, unless it's only 5 degrees or so, I don't like those... yikes!
also no 4x4 club here unfortunately so group experience not readily available...

E, I know it sounds strange that the same lockers that just got you to where you are could also prove to be a liability. Apparently you were not in a situation where sidehilling was an issue...so my caveat about being locked would not necessarily apply.
An example of when "it could" be a problem is when there is no room for error such as a narrow trial and you are sidehilling or even up on some of the "slide" that piles up on the road. Being locked may be just the ticket...but be aware that it affords you little or no warning before losing traction.

I well remember the first time I wheeled down a trail like you have described. Being from Texas I was used to mud, sand, dirt,rocks, cactus, water crossings and the occasional snow. Well....Texas ain't Colorado and the pucker factor got pretty high at times!

I have a '70 model Bronco 1/2 cab (sorry guy's) that is locked front and rear and I know it's capabilities well. But it was still very spooky. I didn't have any choice other than to keep going on that trail, you weren't going to turn around anywhere and backing up a couple of miles didn't seem like a good option!

Take your Cruiser out and wheel it some, you'll know what to do pretty soon. Good Luck.
 
well, seems like the outside consensus and my own feeling also (the best combo) is that I should have used the CDL locked but not the end lockers unless really necessary. I will remember that.

In retrospect, this was perhaps a dangerously deceptive trail. Fairly flat sideways and nothing too steep (for a cruiser) front to back generally, so fairly inviting to the novices like myself but big dropoffs and the occasional washing out on the drop side, or the pile of rubble on the mountain side of the road that would make the truck tilt towards the abyss. Not so good. What I was concerned about at the time and still now was the truck suddenly sliding sideways towards the drop side, perhaps when the wheels would suddenly spin or on an abrupt acceleration or something... And yes, going back 4 miles in reverse on a narrow mountain side trail tends to make one want to go forward. Oh well.... Next time I might take my mountain bike along and ride the trail first...

Any input on using low vs high gears in such a situation? I did use engine braking often but could have done without, braking wise. Is engine braking more likely to result in wheels spinning loose considering I had the ABS active for normal braking?

thanks for all the good useful input here

E
 
Too many dang long posts to read them all. Hard to tell with the limited info we have.

Me? I'd go fully unlocked as slow as possible. Locking it up means things can slide to side much easier. Heck, when we are crawling ledges sometimes if we need to pivot the rear over we will lock it and pivot the truck on the slider - with the rear locked, it is spinning and with just a little side force the truck's rear will slide.
 
Being in high range will gain you nothing but the need for a lot more throttle, especially when wheeling at elevation. Throttle is not your friend on ledge roads.

I'd say two things basic things here.

One, your rig is never just going to pitch off the edge on a relatively flat trail under consistent throttle. Ledge roads are scary, especially when you are new to wheeling, but they aren't inherently prone to catastrophic accidents, and to my knowledge there have been relatively few in Colorado, which has a predominance of ledge road trails. So the best thing to keep along is clean underwear, maybe two pairs :D. You simply have to cut your teeth on these trails if you plan to run them regularly, and no amount of locker fiddling will change this. Just keep in mind that your post at its heart is about fear, not traction. Also remember that you have plenty of company, even among very experienced wheelers.

Second, you shouldn't ever, ever need lockers on a ledge road, and it doesn't take a thousand foot dropoff to kill you. There are a couple of dangerous spots I am aware of in places like Moab (think Rusty Nail) where an obstacle borders a huge dropoff, but any ledge road suitable for a stockish rig should not have these obstacles.

Keep in mind that a great many 4x4's don't have selectable lockers, but many of those do have automatic lockers, like a Detroit, front and rear, usually on a much shorter wheelbase (your long wheelbase is major insurance that both axles will not encounter the same washout conditions at the same time). Those people run these trails without pitching off the edge, or suddenly slipping towards the precipice. Mostly they just generally scare the wits out of passengers who often find themselves on the "oh sh$t" side of the trail.

The best suggestion I can give you is to stay away from situations that frigthen you while you are alone (and never do any serious wheeling alone...it magnifies your risks dramatically in every way). It is particulary helpful to be in the middle of a group watching those in front of you cruise right past a scary spot with no problem. You may encounter an actual off camber sidehill at some point where you risk fatality when that section is also slick (like you thought all the snow had melted on a trail...until you hit a shady spot on the North slope - classic situation). You do not want to attempt these sections alone, because fear, not traction, is often your worst enemy, and what you could idle across may become a serious situation under panic throttle. Plus, if you do get in a serious situation, your buddies can usually get you out.

Remember that your best weapon against side slip is tires, not differentials. I've done some huge tail wagging with crappy all season tires and open diffs, and almost none with a locked rear and tires with good lateral traction and good overall snow performance. Once you have tires with excellent lateral traction (think Interco) after having used tires without, your confidence will go up tenfold.

Nay
 
Junk said:
Too many dang long posts to read them all. Hard to tell with the limited info we have.

Me? I'd go fully unlocked as slow as possible. Locking it up means things can slide to side much easier. Heck, when we are crawling ledges sometimes if we need to pivot the rear over we will lock it and pivot the truck on the slider - with the rear locked, it is spinning and with just a little side force the truck's rear will slide.


Junk, did you mean to say you would not even lock the CDL?

I must say I did go through a couple of washouts on the fast side cuz I wanted to get the momentum in case the edge fell off as I was going by...

Yes, it feels like locking the ends could lead to some undesirable sideways motion...

E
 

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