Safest way to negotiate a potentially slippery dangerous trail with the 80: CDL etc?

[e9999]

e, BTW, glad you're here to post though. Sounds like it could have been nasty.

thanks. In retrospect it was a mistake to have done this. In hindsight I can count several big no-no rules I must have violated in my state of exalted newbiness. I'll spare you all the details. That's the problem with the cruizah, it seems like it will go anywhere... Odd, though, cuz I'm normally an overly cautious kind of guy. That metal is doing strange things to me...

E

 

[e9999]

Nay, your post was excellent. Thank you. Right on the nose and very good advice. Would be great to have a few folks like you and the other guys around here to wheel with...
E

 

[Nay]

thanks. In retrospect it was a mistake to have done this. In hindsight I can count several big no-no rules I must have violated in my state of exalted newbiness. I'll spare you all the details. That's the problem with the cruizah, it seems like it will go anywhere... Odd, though, cuz I'm normally an overly cautious kind of guy. That metal is doing strange things to me...

E

Man, I've seen people who have never been offroad take Exploders *down* a trail that they cannot possibly get back up just because they bought a $15 guide book and have 4wd. Last March I ran into a couple who had rented a Grand Cherokee in Colorado Springs and were looking for trails as the sun was setting a couple hours outside the city (we had just finished the Old Chinamans trail). They had their small son with them and no survival gear and no apparent wheeling experience. I told them that there was a good likelihood of getting stuck and that we were the last group on the trail, and they headed in anyway. We did see them turn around as the trail entrance was too much, but damn if they weren't going to try. That easily could have been a survival hike to avoid freezing to death.

Stick with it and you'll see stupidity that makes your experience look just like what it was: a newbie experiencing severe pucker factor for the first time. I wouldn't fret too much about it. The point is that your learning curve clearly isn't flat, and that alone will serve you well.

Nay

 

[dd113]

Go unlocked as far as you can. Once it gets rough go fast. Speed is your friend.

 

[e9999]

Eric,

I you weren't asking about how to avoid sliding sideways down a hill in your first post, I'll eat my hat.

DougM

that's right, Doug, I was asking about that, so to speak, but I later clarified that I was not actually on a sloped hillside all the time, the trail was carved fairly horizontal sideways into the hillside, so the truck not leaning sideways -when the trail was OK. I was guessing that your post -as usual well thought out and very useful- was referring more to a situation where one drives along the hillside -no carved trail- with the rig inclined sideways like the hill slope.

thanks

E

 

[Big_Moose]

E

If we are talking about transversing perpendicular to the slope, with the section of trail / washout slope similar to the hillside slope? First if the washout slope & hillside slopes are parallel, and steep - Do not cross as you are extremely susceptilble to tipping over / sliding ~ rolling down the hillside. In this severe situations generally requires shovel work.

If the washout has a slight slope compared to the hillside, then the best method is to be in locked low range w/o lockers. As others have mentioned, axle lockers in loose / slippery surfaces will cause the vehicle to travel perpendicular to the planned route ~ sideways down the hill! The greater the slope (snow, ice, loose pea gravel, sand, etc.) the less need for lockers, and just 4WD low & a steady throttle to maintain forward momentum, no need to fly across.

If the washout has additional ruts you can either transverse in 4WD low with rear locker to help push you across. If there are ledges, then the front locker can be used to help pull you over.

For logging roads / fire roads, I generally run in AWD low (you would be amazed at what system can do!), then engage the CDL (4WD low), hardly ever need the axle lockers - but each geographic region soil substrate might require slight changes

Just my overrated five cents.....

Joe

that's right, Doug, I was asking about that, so to speak, but I later clarified that I was not actually on a sloped hillside all the time, the trail was carved fairly horizontal sideways into the hillside, so the truck not leaning sideways -when the trail was OK. I was guessing that your post -as usual well thought out and very useful- was referring more to a situation where one drives along the hillside -no carved trail- with the rig inclined sideways like the hill slope.

thanks

E

 

[e9999]

thanks, Moose, good tips, but no intention to traverse a slope with a canted truck for a while... that would cause me much unnecessary anxiety at this time in my life...

anybody cares to comment on whether engine braking is more susceptible to skidding tires than regular braking, with ABS on?

E

 

[Junk]

e - yes, I meant even with no using of the CDL. I would go unlocked all 3 diffs.

Engine braking is less susceptible to skidding than regulare breaking.

 

[e9999]

e - yes, I meant even with no using of the CDL. I would go unlocked all 3 diffs.

Engine braking is less susceptible to skidding than regulare breaking.

why no CDL?

 

[Junk]

as mentioned in my other post, I want to be open for less chance of lateral movement

 

[turbocruiser]

anybody cares to comment on whether engine braking is more susceptible to skidding tires than regular braking, with ABS on?

E

I would think that engine braking would be less likely to skid tires than regular braking because it would be hard to have the engine apply as much force to the wheels as the brakes do, unless you were working through the gears, redlining the engine with braking force - which would be a baaaddd thing to do!

 

[Bradass80]

The scariest wheeling scenario i've ever been in was on an off cambre road going down hill on ice and snow, since i don't have the luxury of a rear selectable locker i spent most of the time fighting to keep my arse end behind me, another vote for disengaged lockers on off cambre slippery stuff, Brad.

 

[Nay]

thanks, Moose, good tips, but no intention to traverse a slope with a canted truck for a while... that would cause me much unnecessary anxiety at this time in my life...

anybody cares to comment on whether engine braking is more susceptible to skidding tires than regular braking, with ABS on?

E

If at all possible, you want to rely on engine "braking", as this is not restricting wheel rotation in any way and should never cause a loss of traction on its own. This is why some people still favor manual transmissions (lower first gear) and also why low diff and case gears are a major advantage not only on climbing obstacles but also downhill.

The taller your gearing "crawl ratio" (1st gear in transmission x low range ratio x diff ratio), the more you have to use your brakes, and the more potential sliding around. Having said this, the last thing you ever want is to have ABS kicking in and suddenly letting you propel foward. That would be about the worst possible situation. Better to slide a little bit in a very low speed situation.

Again, (especially) with a longer wheelbase you are pretty unlikely to suddenly and catastrophically lose traction at low speeds on any moderate trail. Low gears and good tires are your best weapons, which is true for the entire spectrum of four wheeling.

Piloting a capable 4x4 through severe terrain is something like riding a horse. Believe me, your rig is much more sure footed than you seem to be feeling it to be right now. You don't control every movement, but rather guide the entire process. Part of being a newbie is a lot of concern (fear) at unfamiliar motions, and a great deal of being experienced is being able to feel the rig and what it is doing in order provide the necessary inputs at the right time.

Gaining that experience is more important than any modification you can make, and I consider it sage advice that you should not modify your rig nor use your lockers until you understand where you get stuck, and why, across a wide spectrum of situations. Add just a rear locker, and now see where you get stuck and why. Be willing to get stuck - it is the only way to really learn, and most "stuck" situations require a small tug with a strap and nothing more. Add a lift and see what you can do now. Try the front locker when you get stuck with the lift and rear locker. And then consider whether you will do trails that require more than a 2" OME lift and dual lockers and whether you are willing to make the mods and throw the major coin to gain that capability. For most people, this is a process that takes several years (and countless hours web wheelng).

Nay

 

[Tooth Fairy]

E-

Try finding some kinda hill w/ no danger and try locked and unlocked CDL to try to get it to side slip.

Locked diffs on sidehills are like locked diffs on ice. You gotta *feel it*.

Do what feels right.

 

[mabrodis]

Wow, lots of advice. I've wrestled with this same idea before. For me it's usually on snow, which is a pain, you want to be all locked because you need all the traction you can, cause you'll never make it not spinning all 4 tires (at ~35mph ). But the second you start getting loose on the trail you want the lockers off since they will just make you slide all frieking over the place. I slid partially off a trail with about 2' of snow on it, I could keep going straight but could not get my backend up on the trail, it was just side-sloping as I drove, I drove probably 1/2 mile like this, whole time it felt like I would slide off entirely (would have slid about 6' into trees, so no danger really). I finally got to a point where the rear would pull itself up, that doesn't feel good driving like that. Without the rear locker on it felt like it might pull itself up, but then I'd spin, with the rear locker it would go, but sideways...argh!

Personally I'd lock the center diff, and be ready to lock the rear/front quickly, they can go in pretty darn quick at times, and in a instance like that you'd just hit them both in and one or the other will usually go in in about a second, atleast with mine if the tires are already turning/spinning. Not the best method, but if you're in a panic to get them locked, you don't care about best, you just need them locked asap.

 

[timbercruiser]

E9, if you were in a group, hook your strap to another truck as you cross the sidehil/dropoff. At the very least, it will slow you down so you can eject.

 

[Nay]

I've wrestled with this same idea before. For me it's usually on snow, which is a pain, you want to be all locked because you need all the traction you can, cause you'll never make it not spinning all 4 tires (at ~35mph ). But the second you start getting loose on the trail you want the lockers off since they will just make you slide all frieking over the place. I slid partially off a trail with about 2' of snow on it, I could keep going straight but could not get my backend up on the trail, it was just side-sloping as I drove, I drove probably 1/2 mile like this, whole time it felt like I would slide off entirely (would have slid about 6' into trees, so no danger really). I finally got to a point where the rear would pull itself up, that doesn't feel good driving like that. Without the rear locker on it felt like it might pull itself up, but then I'd spin, with the rear locker it would go, but sideways...argh!

Back to my point about tires with lateral traction, which is an area that MT/R's are not the best. I got some "get off the pipe" responses when recommending the Interco trxus as an excellent all around tire for snowy climates (true all terrain). Last snow run I took was a forest road outside of Woodland Park (we took the long way home after cutting down our Christmas tree), mostly a packed and icy trail with some mogul hills and a couple of sidehill washouts, and the rear did not side slip once with a full time locker. My wife drove for awhile, and she was totally comfortable. The MTR may be a better rock tire, but trxus are exceptional trail snow tires.

When it gets slippery, it's all about the tires. You can't just run BFG AT's and expect lockers to make up for it in every situation.

Nay

 

[e9999]

E9, if you were in a group, hook your strap to another truck as you cross the sidehil/dropoff. At the very least, it will slow you down so you can eject.

hmmm..... "can I please hook up to your truck so when mine falls off the cliff, I'll be able to eject before yours is pulled over too...?"

E

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

e9999: I didn't see in your question whether this bad section was an uphill or a downhill section? If I missed it, sorry.

Downhill: I would leave all diff locks off and run open allowing for zero binding at all wheels to ease into where they may. This is how we went down Black Bear Pass in the 100 and in the rain. (Won't do that again!)

Uphill: I would run open too at the start. Should I detect some slip I'd first lock the center diff and try again. I'd not use my rear or F&R lockers until I experienced some traction loss.

Also: This is a situation where a traction-controlled 100 has a HUGE advantage over an 80, especially if wet, icy or snowy. A HUGE ADVANTAGE. Then, if you also have lockers in your 100 you have the best of both worlds. If needed, lock the center and/or rear and let traction control move power around up front. This allows for even more traction and full front turning capability, a huge safety measure.

 

[e9999]

as mentioned in my other post, I want to be open for less chance of lateral movement

OK, Junk. Not sure I see that I understand how locking the CD would give rise to the same likelihood of side slip as locking the ends, but what do I know...? Care to elaborate?

E