Sad 1st day for an LJ78 prado (1 Viewer)

[brownbear]

I somehow doubt the exporters really care about what you get. Same as a domestic auction in Canada. or anywhere for that matter.

But with all those who just want a buck, I am sure there are some good guys. But when they are dealing with strangers and not face to face, another part of the world, they probably don't get a guilty feeling for selling stuff they know is crap.

 

[crushers]

Here is my take on the situation in Japan. When I first started importing the auctions seemed very strict when it came to grading the interiors and exteriors, a '4' was actually a '4' and a "B" was a "B" interior.
This seemed to be the case for about 3 years then I watched as the grading fell dramatically and the attitude at the auctions visibly changed for the worse. I started hearing complaints from the exporters that money wasn't being transferred in a timely manor.
Scam artists were surfacing in Canada. One such example of this is one importer here in Canada pulled a serious scam by using an ordered "low grade" HJ61 as an example of the "poor product" coming out of Japan. So he contacted a gent in Japan, who was desiring to expand his export business, but refused to pay for the HDJ81 till after it arrived in Canada so he could examine it in person. The agreement was it would be at this time it would be paid for in full. Once the truck arrived the Canadian didn't pay for the unit but said he would at time of sale to a customer. The truck is still not paid for but is advertised as a "high end unit". This truck has been in the works for nearly a year.
What is the problem with this situation? It affects all of us
. The Japanese exporters talk amongst themselves. The good importers in Canada are respected and the shady ones are noted. If a Canadian importer buys a unit where the mileage is questionable (say the mileage is reading 55,000 km but it has been noted that the speedometer cluster was changed out at one time) and posts it up for sale with the mileage “confirmed” (and the importer knows this is a lie) then this is noted. The Japanese exporters, in general, are an honest breed and do not respect this form of deceit.
Also the buyers need to realize that when they buy a unit from an exporter, in most cases the exporter does not check the car over. Most just take your order and bid amount and find you a unit that matches both. The exporter gets his commission by supplying the unit, not by doing the extras that the rare few charge for. Plus there are some shady exporters in Japan but I have only come across a couple. In comparison, there are VERY FEW dealers in Canada that I trust.
The auction grade has fallen dramatically. I have seen grade ‘4’ with rust, with serious dents, with heavy fading and I have seen “B” interiors with rips, heavily smoked in. to me this is unacceptable but you must adjust with what is going on. If you do not have a contact in Japan that visually inspects the unit, that can inspect the unit after the auction unit has been won and is willing to invest at least an hour of his time to test drive the unit then you are buying a high risk unit. You could end up with anything.
The units that are showing up with head cracks, I suspect, are units bought directly out of the auction, trucked to the dock and shipped over. These are usually units bought for a low-end dollar by someone trying to save a buck. Repair bills at this end will quickly eat up the buck you save. Of course if you are an unscrupulous importer and buy one of these units then you try and flog it to an unknowledgeable customer so you can cut your loses.
Especially with the 2LT-E equipped units a truck could arrive in Canada with no problems but days/weeks/months later the head issue WILL show up. People buying these engines must be ready to drop between $2000 and $3000 to get the engines up and running. Does replacing the head mean an end to the head issue? No. I was chatting with Dan (4wheel auto) last week and he mentioned of a guy with surf that is on his 3rd head now. Once the new head is installed take preventative action to make sure the entire system is upgraded to resist the high EGTs and the problematic cooling system.
In most cases it is not the exporter that is to blame for the issues showing up, it is the attitude of the Canadian importers, the price people are willing to pay and the demands that accompany the price.
My recommendations is first, do not buy a 2LT(E) equipped unit. PERIOD. Unless you are prepared to pay what it costs to do the head and upgrades.
Next do not deal with the exporters in Japan (unless you KNOW they sell a good product) if you cannot afford to loose the investment money.
Lastly, if you really want a trouble free unit then buy from a REPUTABLE importer here in Canada that will stand behind the product he sells. DO YOUR RESEARCH.
In my mind there are 3 tiers of exporter in Japan. The low-end exporter that will sell you anything and lie about the product to make a sale. The 2nd level that try hard to have a happy customer with prompt service and actually having the units inspected before the bid goes in and the high end exporters that actually have all the units inspected before auction bidding, an inspection after the purchase and a good long test drive. Of course this costs more to the consumer but at least the exporter feels comfortable in selling the units to the buyers.
Cheers

 

[nickw]

I am with Wayne.
You get what you pay for, and there is no free lunch.

I don't know much about the 2LT, but I know it has head issues.

Even once the truck is in Canada, be cautious. Just because you have been dreaming about the truck for months, don't automatically assume the importer is honest and will follow through with what he says. Don't let your desire for the truck rush the process. If you are unsure, don't lie to yourself, and say its okay. Have it checked out.

My importer was helpful until I got the truck. He promised me some things, and has not dilivered. He did give me a bit of a deal, however, those savings has already been eaten up in repair bills, and beyond.

Someone as Wayne and others who will stand behind the truck is rare. It is worth more. Your first $1000 repair bill could eat up the savings. Just something to think about.


Cheers,
Nick

 

[nickw]

Anyways, sorry to get off topic with the about list.
What are things that a 2LT owner can do to stop this problem.

Cooling system flush or rad flush?
New lower temp thermostat?
New coolant?
Bigger straight exhaust?
A pyro for sure
Having a light foot
others...?

Cheers,
Nick

 

[2rivers]

Regarding the 3 head story from Dan, I'm sure if one didnt take the time to install it correctly, burp it, bleed it, change water pump, flush rad, monitor for any small leaks etc, you will continue to blow up heads. Dont got coolant in the head - guess what! Face it folks - they are finickity. They run out of gear quickly and dont like continuous revs (so unless you can tolerate 100 km/h or LESS on highway DONT BUY ONE). The plumbing is a mess with hoses everywhere with potential for lots of airlocks and leaks. I think it they get great fuel economy despite what Wayne has reported, and have adequate power, particularly torque. We like ours for what we use it for.

Johnny

 

[Island Moose]

What I take from Wayne's comments is that the old adage of buyer beware continues to be one of life's constants.

I'm amazed (in a bad way) to hear that there are accounts of the "new" heads failing. I can't believe these heads are not being installed with great care, especially given the money involved. Leads one to conslude that the potential exists that the design itself is faulty, and that one should perhaps consider additional cooling methods...perhaps propane injection or an upgraded rad/pump?

My thoughts recently on the subject of faulty heads and faulty BEB's is that it detracts somewhat from the Landcruiser's mystique of invincibility. I bought mine knowing it's performance limitations, but also knowing that the truck is built to survive in the toughest 3rd world conditions, including irregular maintenance.

To then wrap my head around nervously - staring at an EGT needle anytime I'm climbing a hill, or worrying if that knocking sound is the crankshaft eating its own bearings, is tough.

While I love the agricultural nature of the BJ70, I suppose someday I'll want the next one up the line in terms of comforts and power...now this all has me wondering if I should stick with the goat and count my blessings?

I think as North America's leading (only?) forum for JDM landcruisers, we should really promote ourselves to prospective buyers, and "get the word" out that one must be aware of certain problems and budget for them.

 

[1990 LJ78]

Hey.. I might add a new or rebuilt larger radiator..

I've run mine on the highway under constant rev conditions up some really good grades.. 110 to 120 kms / hr. @ about 3000 rpm or just over.. up the Don Valley Express Way from Toronto to Newmarket....It has warmed up but never overheated.
Most places I want or need to go I have to go by major highway 100 to 120 KMH. At these speeds the LJ78 seems like a rocket..
Still rackin on the kms.. From 51000 to just about 60000 since April. Don't forget this is my daily driver..

Please do not get me wrong here. I'm just stating how mine has been so far..

I hope that when Ali gets his fixed up he will be able to enjoy the truck the way it's meant to be enjoyed.. It is really an awsome truck .

 

[crushers]

ever since i posted on my main page about the head issue of the 2LT(E) engines i have recieved dozens of emails and phone calls. some listen, some don't heed the warning, some do...
you can not convince someone that there is an issue if they don't really want to hear it...

 

[1990 LJ78]

Hummmmm

Wayne I do understand your warnings about the problems with the motors in these trucks as I'm sure everyone on the forum dose especially those who have had the cracked head experience, and I must point out it is not just the Prado's that suffer from Cracked head syndrome. Just about every vehicle Toyota put the 2L-TE in suffers.
As I have said in a previous post some where here "It dose not matter what is said about the truck, if some one wants the truck they will still buy it"

If I had done my reseach before buying my truck I probably would not have bought it. But I was how would I say" bitten by this truck" and had to have it and bought it before doing the research ..
I'm not saying that I won't have a problem..
I was just saying in my post how my experience with the truck has been so far, that is all. So people can see that if you do buy one of these trucks it is not the death sentance every one makes it out to be. THis truck is awsum.. If and when my head goes I'll be the first to post on here and let every one know..If anything else goes I'll post on here, get it fixed and still enjoy the truck. Cause I'm keeping it..
From my readings not only here but else where people who have had the head crack and had it repaired are thrilled with the truck.

I just hope Ali can get his motor fixed soon so he will be able to experience just how great this truck really is..

Ok I've said way to much, now you can flame me..

Regards

 

[crushers]

from my own experience, my wifes daily driver has had no issues in 20,000K++ but i am prepared when it does come up (i will part this one out instead of fix the head). the other "bush rig" LJ78 of my wifes is now near the $6000 mark of getting rid of the over heating problems and she just loves the truck (same as i do). the trucks in general are a great experience but to make light of the head issue is misleading to say the least. the surfs and the 2CT also experience the same issues.

i watched Robin enjoy his LJ78 on the trail this past sept long weekend. Berni loved hers (up on 2 wheels!!) and Ty enjoyed driving Bernis as well.

the head is the only issue anyone really has with these sweet trucks but it is an expensive frustrationg issue that many importers make light of....

 

[1990 LJ78]

Ali's Repair

I'm with you Wayne..
I'm waiting for the frustration part though, which I'm
sure sooner or later I'll see.
Should have told you some of the runs I make are with the Prado carrying 400 or 500 pound of band gear. yep loaded to the nines..

How is Ali doing with his repair??? Started yet??

 

[Martin White]

Is there an engine swap relatively easily done that could deal with this issue? It might be worth it, even if it costs 2-3 times as much as a head "fix" that won't last and can't be relied on.

 

[light_duty]

I think you could put a 1KZ-TE in there no problem. But those engines don't come cheap.

In all my reading on UK and Aussie Surf forums, I've never heard of a replacement head failing in the same manner as the original head.

I think the cracking problem must be caused by poor design or a batch of impure iron or maybe trying to cut corners by using green castings.

Anyway, until the units with replacement heads start logging up around 60,000 or 100,000 kms, there's no saying whether or not the fix is unreliable.

Robin

 

[crushers]

personally i would feel comfortable with the fix and a few mods to help prevent it occuring again...

 

[endless]

Wayne, what exactly are the 'few mods' that you would recommend? Spell it out for me, if you don't mind, I'm not mechanically inclined. Our new head was covered by the dealer and they also 'revised the cooling system', but I don't know what specific questions to ask to make sure the recommended changes have been made.

 

[crushers]

crank up the boost to allow better burning and lower EGTs (and better power on the hills), larger exhaust to expell the spent gasses and related heat faster, EGR blocked off, larger cored rad, fixed fan, new water pump at time of head install... to name a few and of course the very esential pyrometer installed and watched with resulting driving habit change...

 

[greencruiser]

my roomate just got one of these lj78s and I was wondering about a few mods to help prevent head probs

would propane injection actually reduce the egt? and wondering if a pusher fan on the front of the rad might be good.

 

[Psilosin]

If you poke around the various international sites you see the same discussions regarding head cracking wether it be the 2LT*, the 1KZTE or the 3L. Only 'light duty' diesel engine I haven't read head cracking complaints about is the 2L. Kind of disheartening.

Maybe its a good thing Toyota didn't bring many diesels to North America or Toyota might just not have the great reliability reputation in NA that they currently thrive on...

That said my 2LTII equipped Surf has put on 30,000 trouble-free km since purchase in 2004 (knock on wood). Almost all of those km were done at speeds <105km/h though if thats an important point (both because my Surf is slow as a Turd and even if it wasn't I'm so used to driving a VW Vanagon that I drive slow as a turd anyway ). Mods I have done are blocked the EGR right when I bought it [July 2004] (since totally removed EGR [July 2006]), put on a 2 1/2" exhaust [Fall 2004 i think], shimmed the wastegate to max the boost to 10psi rather than the factory 7psi [July 2005], and Pyrometer installed [July 2006] (I actually drive the truck harder than I used to now that I have a Pyro telling me temps are OK...might not be a good idea to be putting my trust in a single gauge...).

I actually like my Surf so much I have another one coming from Japan to be my more daily driver while the current one will get a little more built up for camping expeditions (at least thats my plan...when my wife finds out I bought another Surf I might be living in it!!). Here's hoping my new Surf is as great as the current one.

Also as a side thought...even with the cost of redo'ing the engine on a Prado, they still seem like a good buy IF thinking of a specialty vehicle. The relatively unique shape and size of an LJ78, combined with its nice features (ie susp seats, diff lock) makes for a nice platform to make a gnarly 4WD camper. Rip out the rear rows of seats and make some customs cabinets/drawers and a sleeping platform, nice rack up top for the kayak and there you go. Considering 1986-1991 VW Syncro Westfalia's (typically with high km and rust) are commanding prices in the 15-20K range, then add 6-10K for the going diesel conversions people are putting in them or the recurring $2-4K rebuild of the stock (also factory flawed) wasserboxer and you can see the value. As a simple grocery getter...well then maybe a Prado isn't good choice.

And that my friends is a fine example of a run-on post that probably went off topic within the first sentence.....

 

[crushers]

The relatively unique shape and size of an LJ78, combined with its nice features (ie susp seats, diff lock) makes for a nice platform to make a gnarly 4WD camper. Rip out the rear rows of seats and make some customs cabinets/drawers and a sleeping platform, nice rack up top for the kayak and there you go. ....

actually the LJ78 shares the same body platform as the PZ/HZJ77 (only difference in sheet metal is the front clip) which has a more robust engines, better fuel economy and much more power and the option of front diff lock (not available in the 78 series). the one thing i do love about the 78 vs the 77 models is the coil suspension. the 78 is like a mating between the 81 and the 77. my wife's LJ78 rocks off road and one of the big reasons is the coils...
of course the factory stock 4.9 gearing helps a lot as well...

 

[Greg_B]

If you poke around the various international sites you see the same discussions regarding head cracking wether it be the 2LT*, the 1KZTE or the 3L. Only 'light duty' diesel engine I haven't read head cracking complaints about is the 2L. Kind of disheartening.

I have not heard anything near the issues with the 3L so I would not include this engine in with the 2LT. In fact a 3L Hilux would be the cats ass.

There are reports of the 1KZTE coughing up heads on some boards in various sites, but again not the numbers you hear with the 2LT. The 2LT rank #1 in this issue imo. Buget the complete fix (which has been detailed) and run it.

hth's

gb