bloc
SILVER Star
Regular VS Premium - let’s put an end to an ongoing debate? (2 Viewers)
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- Thread starter
- #42
He he, well we only need 2 cars so we could compare LC and LX.
- Thread starter
- #43
Well, I have another question to our experienced tuners.
We are talking about 6 octane difference between 87 Regular and 93 Premium fuel.
In the real world of performance tuning, where you push the limits to the top edge of the borderline, reflash so changes are applied instantly, considering no hardware changes, just software, what approximate gains can you squeeze out of additional 6 octane? Something we could understand, like horsepower.
Now in the world of octane tuning, kind of conservative tuning manufacturers do where live data is analyzed by ECU and changes applied over time, where manufacturers often play it on the safe side (like Toyota) and do not even get near the borderline, what would the approximate gain be out of the same 6 octane in relation to the true performance tuning above.
I only imagine second number to be a lot less, like 60-70% less or even more.
Ballpark, estimate or just of the top of the head experience based answer is absolutely fine.
We are not building nuclear submarine here, all we are trying to figure out if it is actually worth to spend 28 additional cents per gallon of Premium 93 vs Regular 87 or pocket the money and use it (as someone suggested) to purchase new set of rubber every 4-6 years.
The last sentence made me laugh and wonder what comment would George Carlin have about guys who pay in the neighborhood of 100 grand for their vehicles and later debate if we should spend additional 28 cents per gallon of Premium.
Anyway let’s blame it all the science thing, we are learning and that is definitely a good thing.
We are talking about 6 octane difference between 87 Regular and 93 Premium fuel.
In the real world of performance tuning, where you push the limits to the top edge of the borderline, reflash so changes are applied instantly, considering no hardware changes, just software, what approximate gains can you squeeze out of additional 6 octane? Something we could understand, like horsepower.
Now in the world of octane tuning, kind of conservative tuning manufacturers do where live data is analyzed by ECU and changes applied over time, where manufacturers often play it on the safe side (like Toyota) and do not even get near the borderline, what would the approximate gain be out of the same 6 octane in relation to the true performance tuning above.
I only imagine second number to be a lot less, like 60-70% less or even more.
Ballpark, estimate or just of the top of the head experience based answer is absolutely fine.
We are not building nuclear submarine here, all we are trying to figure out if it is actually worth to spend 28 additional cents per gallon of Premium 93 vs Regular 87 or pocket the money and use it (as someone suggested) to purchase new set of rubber every 4-6 years.
The last sentence made me laugh and wonder what comment would George Carlin have about guys who pay in the neighborhood of 100 grand for their vehicles and later debate if we should spend additional 28 cents per gallon of Premium.
Anyway let’s blame it all the science thing, we are learning and that is definitely a good thing.
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terrapin
SILVER Star
I buy premium for my LX570 but I wish it was only 28 cents difference. It's between 40-60 cents per gallon here between regular and premium 
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I save about 6 cents at Costco here. I wish they'd set it cheaper like they do in many other places.
Yep, ethanol has less energy (approx 1/3) than gas. It does however have higher octane so it is less likely to knock (i think pure ethanol has 110-115 octane rating IIRC).
Strangely, when I run ethanol free I get much better mileage than the 3-4% I should attain compared to e10. Even so, the extra mileage does not offset the additional cost of pure gas where I live.
As far as mapping tables, as I mentioned in a different thread on this often renewed subject, OrangeVirus told me quite a while ago the 200s they have unlocked (I think up to MY 16) have identical mapping tables between LC and LX for both regular and premium.
They also said both were very conservative based on the compression of the motor, and essentially there was no need to run premium to avoid knocking unless I used the more aggressive OrangeVirus tune.
As @bloc said, someone could pay to unlock a couple to confirm. The confirmation from OV Tuning is enough confirmation for me.
I have run all grades of fuel in my LC. Depends on the cost delta
My BMW requires Premium and my daughter borrowed it an filled it up with mid grade. That was obviously tuned tightly and ran like crap. I hade to pour in some octane booster to get it to run OK so I could use the gas up and replace with Premium
The LC to me is not tuned to premium. It seems to run the same whether it is Regular or Premium. For some reason when I pull into Costco I prefer to fill it with Premium. I have no facts to tell you why other than I feel why not.
What it comes down to is personal choice. Why do some people use Mobil1 (I do) vs Castrol or Valvoline. They are all good oils. It comes down to preference. Some adjust the weight based on climate, I run the same thing year round and change in mid May once a year no matter how many miles.
I am an Engineer as well, Aerospace and personal preference can't play a role there. It has to be facts and analysis. In this case the fact is the LC can run regular grade fuel. That is how it was designed
Anything better than regular is personal preference where some facts may or may not help rationalize why you feel it is a better choice, but the fact of the matter is anything better than regular fuel is just a personal choice
Now I am going to enjoy a glass of Crown Royal, a Canadian whisky. I prefer that over scotch because I read that whisky made with corn vs Malted Barley will help you live 10 years longer. Just kidding, its a personal preference 
My BMW requires Premium and my daughter borrowed it an filled it up with mid grade. That was obviously tuned tightly and ran like crap. I hade to pour in some octane booster to get it to run OK so I could use the gas up and replace with Premium
The LC to me is not tuned to premium. It seems to run the same whether it is Regular or Premium. For some reason when I pull into Costco I prefer to fill it with Premium. I have no facts to tell you why other than I feel why not.
What it comes down to is personal choice. Why do some people use Mobil1 (I do) vs Castrol or Valvoline. They are all good oils. It comes down to preference. Some adjust the weight based on climate, I run the same thing year round and change in mid May once a year no matter how many miles.
I am an Engineer as well, Aerospace and personal preference can't play a role there. It has to be facts and analysis. In this case the fact is the LC can run regular grade fuel. That is how it was designed
Anything better than regular is personal preference where some facts may or may not help rationalize why you feel it is a better choice, but the fact of the matter is anything better than regular fuel is just a personal choice
Now I am going to enjoy a glass of Crown Royal, a Canadian whisky. I prefer that over scotch because I read that whisky made with corn vs Malted Barley will help you live 10 years longer
. Just kidding, its a personal preference
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If an engine (any engine in any vehicle) doesn't get improved power and mpg using Premium fuel, then premium gasoline is a waste of money. Test it and see. Just do some test drives feeling the engine power and keep track of mpg.
On my carbureted FJ60 that had no ECU, the ole 2F got on average 10 to 12% better mpg running 89 octane gas compared to 87 and there was a noticeable increase in power. Premium 93 octane didn't show any more improvement.
When I filled the tank with Premium fuel in Mexico- holy crap that stuff is like rocket fuel. It made my I6 engine perform like a V8. Huge difference. USA premium never performed like that.
In my experience (carbureted engine) the least expensive 87 octane regular fuel was the most expensive gas at the pump because of the big mpg hit. Also the performance hit even with an EFI engine in a newer car convinced me to never buy that stuff ever again
On my carbureted FJ60 that had no ECU, the ole 2F got on average 10 to 12% better mpg running 89 octane gas compared to 87 and there was a noticeable increase in power. Premium 93 octane didn't show any more improvement.
When I filled the tank with Premium fuel in Mexico- holy crap that stuff is like rocket fuel. It made my I6 engine perform like a V8. Huge difference. USA premium never performed like that.
In my experience (carbureted engine) the least expensive 87 octane regular fuel was the most expensive gas at the pump because of the big mpg hit. Also the performance hit even with an EFI engine in a newer car convinced me to never buy that stuff ever again
- Thread starter
- #49
Truly, this video is just making news, self tuning functionality of ECU requires time, figure 2 tanks of gas at minimum for the knock algorithms to run, software to collect live data and to make a decision based on the results. Draining Regular, filling up with Premium and to expect instant results without re-flashing ECU is not the way to test.
These days if your area takes Highway money your getting blended Ethanol gas ... AKA agricultural welfare gas . My state of Pennsylvania is one of 7 states that mandates the use of Ethanol . I can go one county up and buy E-0 gas because they don't do auto emissions testing . The gas business is a huge rip off these days .
EPA mandates new car auto emissions standards the manufactures must meet and is posted on your new car sticker . Then new car manufactures test on ethanol free gas to meet those standards .
Then Government mandates you must use their 10% blended gas , talk about class action lawsuit you can never hit the MPG the EPA mandates because your using the gas that the GOV mandates .Huge rip off .
Its a love hate with big oil , they love ethanol is a cheap way to boost octane numbers , but don't want to be regulated .
Figure is your blended gas the higher the octane rating the more ethanol in your fuel .
Ethanol is nothing but political corruption and farmland destruction , Iowa has some of the most polluted soil thanks to all the fertilizers and pesticides , cheerios and nature valley bars have Round-Up weed killer in their products and the USDA claims that their within acceptable levels thanks to the run off from going corn for gasoline that pays for votes .
If I can't get Ethanol free gas I'm using Sams or Cosco cheapest but adding a lubricant like Lucas Oil , could be snake oil but any extra lubricant for the injectors and pump can't hurt .
EPA mandates new car auto emissions standards the manufactures must meet and is posted on your new car sticker . Then new car manufactures test on ethanol free gas to meet those standards .
Then Government mandates you must use their 10% blended gas , talk about class action lawsuit you can never hit the MPG the EPA mandates because your using the gas that the GOV mandates .Huge rip off .
Its a love hate with big oil , they love ethanol is a cheap way to boost octane numbers , but don't want to be regulated .
Figure is your blended gas the higher the octane rating the more ethanol in your fuel .
Ethanol is nothing but political corruption and farmland destruction , Iowa has some of the most polluted soil thanks to all the fertilizers and pesticides , cheerios and nature valley bars have Round-Up weed killer in their products and the USDA claims that their within acceptable levels thanks to the run off from going corn for gasoline that pays for votes .
If I can't get Ethanol free gas I'm using Sams or Cosco cheapest but adding a lubricant like Lucas Oil , could be snake oil but any extra lubricant for the injectors and pump can't hurt .
- Thread starter
- #51
Very good writup about Toyota 5.7. It answers some of our questions based on facts. See link below
OrangeVirus Tuning 3UR-FE 5.7L Tundra Development
OrangeVirus Tuning Development Blog: Toyota Tundra 5.7LOrangeVirus Tuning plans to add another vehicle to our tuning lineup. The Toyota Tundra. Many requests have been made from the community for us to develop a tuning option and calibration for these trucks, and so we have started development...
vftuner.com
So an engine tuned to run on s*** gas, does. The LX is no different.Very good writup about Toyota 5.7. It answers some of our questions based on facts. See link below
OrangeVirus Tuning 3UR-FE 5.7L Tundra Development
OrangeVirus Tuning Development Blog: Toyota Tundra 5.7LOrangeVirus Tuning plans to add another vehicle to our tuning lineup. The Toyota Tundra. Many requests have been made from the community for us to develop a tuning option and calibration for these trucks, and so we have started development...vftuner.com
- Thread starter
- #53
Sure sounds like it, makes me wonder, again, where the extra 2HP are coming from in case of LX, if not from Premium gas it must be from engine grading post assembly - that would kind of explain the very low number..... but I’m speculating again.
There is probably enough flexibility in the tuning for it to recognize different grades of gas, gas without ethanol etc. 2HP is absolute statistical insignificance.
If Lexus wanted a higher powered 5.7, the capability is there from a mapping standpoint.
bloc
SILVER Star
2hp between 381 and 383 is about .5%. Any tuner that can reproduce that result is an absolute wizard. Plus, manufacturers are allowed to “adjust” published hp figures far more than that for marketing purposes. I can’t remember exactly how much.
- Thread starter
- #56
Definitely lots of flexibility within ECU self tuning function, we already talked about Low Octane Table and High Octane Table, someone else confirmed existance of factory Regular Gas and Premium Gas tune with OrangeVirus Tuning. From my own reading - there is even table for Knock sensors sensitivity which filters knock response relative to background noise.
Attached screenshot from VFTuner should give us general idea of what is out there, and note it only shows partial scroll on the left.
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First world issues. Anyone happy they can simply get clean gas? The gains from regular to premium in this motor is a moot point from a performance stand point. I don't know about the LX but LC's don't knock with 87. The only real world issue I can see is ethanol. Ethanol is bad. The only reason to run a higher octane is if the motor needs it for the explosion. Compression. I love the graphs, charts, but can someone show me a gain over 2% with any specs. Even with a 2% gain in torque or HP most folks would not even notice it in the real world. Even the MPG.
If you have this motor and run premium and the other guy is running regular the results will be the same at the end of the 1/4 mile. Unless one of them is a better driver.
The gas argument is on the same line as cold air intake boxes.
Open your manual. If it says you must use 93 that means the motor needs that octane to function properly. If it says 87 octane that's all you need. You gain nothing from a higher octane besides smug bragging rights you only use premium. And further prove marketing works.
I am only talking stock motor.
If you have this motor and run premium and the other guy is running regular the results will be the same at the end of the 1/4 mile. Unless one of them is a better driver.
The gas argument is on the same line as cold air intake boxes.
Open your manual. If it says you must use 93 that means the motor needs that octane to function properly. If it says 87 octane that's all you need. You gain nothing from a higher octane besides smug bragging rights you only use premium. And further prove marketing works.
I am only talking stock motor.
New land cruisers fuel cap says E15 is fine but no E20/E85 ethanol is 114 Octane rated . I know guys that love blending fuels with Alcohols thats what the big oil love ethanol , most fuel suppliers start with same Blend Stock of gas around 84/85 percent real gas and just adjust mixture from there , N-Butane , Alkylate ,Benzene , Toluene , Xylene , MTBE , Ethanol .
All can be uses to adjust fuel octane ratings ... More Ethanol higher octane .
Fuel is crap these days , you can’t trust any of them , your best buying non ethanol fuel , near me its 30 cents more than high test .
My vehicles that don’t get used on a regular basis I put E-0 thats ATVs ,bikes , mowers , blowers , trucks .
My beater daily drivers I use the name brand cheapest with a additive .
Here is a pick of a 2019 fuel cap , I don’t think Toyota changed any internals to for the high ethanol blend .
All can be uses to adjust fuel octane ratings ... More Ethanol higher octane .
Fuel is crap these days , you can’t trust any of them , your best buying non ethanol fuel , near me its 30 cents more than high test .
My vehicles that don’t get used on a regular basis I put E-0 thats ATVs ,bikes , mowers , blowers , trucks .
My beater daily drivers I use the name brand cheapest with a additive .
Here is a pick of a 2019 fuel cap , I don’t think Toyota changed any internals to for the high ethanol blend .
Of all the things to complain about, I just don’t get all the hate on ethanol. Some how all my cars keep running reliably for hundreds of thousands of miles with no negative impact from that evil E10. I’d much rather go on an adventure than navel gaze on fuels and oil.
One of the biggest problems is Ethanol hydroscopic and picks up water everywhere , if your just burning thru gas constantly its not going to be a problem with a modern car . The gasoline business is such a rip off .
There is a reason you can’t put E-10 in a aircraft it absorbs water and will freeze and you crash , but its fine for your car Or small engine .
I know a little about the fuel business ... most gas station franchise have can buy there lower grade gas from any fuel supplier and joe blow thinks there getting name brand gas .
I was at a dinner one day and watched a no brand fuel truck go from a BP gas station drive right across the street to a Sunoco and fuel them up .
Sunoco has not cracked fuel in over 10 years , they just buy the cheapest gas on the market and make there money off the food and snack store , thats why you have not seen Sunoco 94 in all those years they don’t make anything but specialty race fuels .
If your running your vehicle on a regular basis there is really not much choice out there and you really can tell what your getting these days .
Even when I do get Ethanol free gas at the pump I usually do the food dye test on a small sample just to make sure I’m really getting ethanol free , I have been using one station that has allways been pretty good with that .
The last biggest problem comes down to choice , Government should not be partnered with Ethanol business and mandate you use there products when they don’t force automakers to post a actually MPG Test using the gas the Government mandates you use 10%
When your Cheerios has Round Up weed killer in it and the USDA comes out and says its within expectable Toxic levels just because they partner with farmers to grow corn for gas that is totally wrong . Nature valley bars and Cheerios should post the warning Glyphosate in this product and may cause cancer ... this is public knowledge.
Sorry maybe slightly off topic but directly related to Ethanol thanks to growing corn for gas blending .
There is a reason you can’t put E-10 in a aircraft it absorbs water and will freeze and you crash , but its fine for your car Or small engine .
I know a little about the fuel business ... most gas station franchise have can buy there lower grade gas from any fuel supplier and joe blow thinks there getting name brand gas .
I was at a dinner one day and watched a no brand fuel truck go from a BP gas station drive right across the street to a Sunoco and fuel them up .
Sunoco has not cracked fuel in over 10 years , they just buy the cheapest gas on the market and make there money off the food and snack store , thats why you have not seen Sunoco 94 in all those years they don’t make anything but specialty race fuels .
If your running your vehicle on a regular basis there is really not much choice out there and you really can tell what your getting these days .
Even when I do get Ethanol free gas at the pump I usually do the food dye test on a small sample just to make sure I’m really getting ethanol free , I have been using one station that has allways been pretty good with that .
The last biggest problem comes down to choice , Government should not be partnered with Ethanol business and mandate you use there products when they don’t force automakers to post a actually MPG Test using the gas the Government mandates you use 10%
When your Cheerios has Round Up weed killer in it and the USDA comes out and says its within expectable Toxic levels just because they partner with farmers to grow corn for gas that is totally wrong . Nature valley bars and Cheerios should post the warning Glyphosate in this product and may cause cancer ... this is public knowledge.
Sorry maybe slightly off topic but directly related to Ethanol thanks to growing corn for gas blending .
