Painful low frequency drone/pressure in cabin
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- #222
It's already got an aftermarket TC in it, and the wiring harness around it is missing most of it's clips, which tells me whoever did it didn't care... but if I have to pull the trans I'm re-gearing the T case at the same time... and maybe the part time kit... shhhhhhh don't tell the wife!
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- #225
I just got around to measuring this last night (I've had someone's 4runner in my shop this past week & it's cold outside! Haha).
The two bushings right in front of the front doors were both closer to a 3/8's gap, the others were around the 1/4 - 5/16ths mark. So a potential issue - definitely not excited about doing those, but they may need to go on the list. At least I already have them all sitting in a box from Impex!
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- #227
Transmission has always been somewhat of a question mark, but, the resonance occurs whether I'm in 4th or 5th gear at the same road speeds - I would expect a transmission issue would be RPM dependant more than road speed dependendant.
Below is copy-and-paste from the other thread going on right now - just dropping here so my thoughts continue to stay in one place:
"One thing I've been meaning to do is throw a bunch of weight in the back (I've got some bags of concrete laying around to use), along the lines of 3-400 pounds & see if/how that changes things, since you're non-trivially changing the amount of mass in the cabin at that point. I *swear* it was worse the other day when my wife was riding with me, but that was also the first time I've had it up to highway rush hour speeds and noticed that above 73 mph the vibration/resonance SUCKS. Again though, it all seemed worse (like at 45-53mph) with the wife in the cabin. She does not weigh the same as 300-400 pounds of concrete, so if it's truly an issue I figure that additionally weight should exacerbate the effect.
So I have symptoms from 45-52 mph, and 72-80 mph. What's interesting is that from 75-80 mph the frequency of the resonance stays at 60 hz, rather than shift with road speed as it does everywhere else (confirmed with audio spectrum analyzer app).
Not sure what to think, but that's where I'm at at the moment. Top of my list are the muffler (seems crunchy, may have weird leaks), body mount bushings, and the transmission.
The muffler and transmission though would be confusing, as the resonance occurs at the same road speeds whether I'm in 4th or 5th gear, which are very different engine speeds. This entire thing is confusing though, so I'm just tossing spaghetti at walls & seeing what sticks at the moment..."
Funny, I swear I hear less when I have any family member riding with me...
Dad? Is that you?
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- #232
@fussychicken you and I may be back in the same boat!
So, I've been daily driving the LX for the past month, overall being pretty happy with it other than the overly-stiff AHC (still not sure what that's about). However, as previously mentioned, it wasn't great with the wife a couple weeks ago, and then this week the cabin resonance got BAD again - like, nearly back-to-where-we-started bad. A 25 minute drive to work left me with ear pain for a couple hours! That's not good.
Resonance frequency is very closely tied to driveshaft rotation speed again. Gets bad around 45-50, better from 50-58, annoying around 60-62, better at 63-72, BAD from 73-80 (but at this point, the frequency stops increasing with increasing speed - like it's maxed out or something), and then goes totally smooth at 85+. But how? 6 month old T-case output bearing, 3 month old rear diff, 6 month old rear driveshaft. Flange angles are good (parallel, but offset vertically as expected). Pulling the front drive shaft doesn't change anything.
What gives? As it turns out, this:
Yeah, that's right. There's a solid 10-15 thou of axial play on that U-joint. 6 months old, 3K miles or so. No dents in the drive shaft or anything else that would indicate that it could have gotten smacked HARD enough to do this.
Toyota's spec axial play on this joint is 0.0" - not 0.001", 0.000". Zero play. At all. This one is bad enough it goes 'clink clink clink' in real life when you push it around. The rotation of the joint doesn't feel bad, but I can't imagine that axial play is helping anything - especially given Toyota's zero-tolerance spec on it.
When I drive without the rear driveshaft, zero resonance issues at all. Period. So nice! AHC still translates little stuff way too much, but my ears are happy.
OK, so, driveshaft should be covered under the 12 month Toyota warranty, right? According to Toyota, even though I ordered it from Olathe Toyota in KS, the warranty is honored at any dealer... hah, hah, hah. I hope the Toyota dealers in Indiana get cratered by an asteroid one day.
Nearest dealer (Royal South in Bloomington, putting them on blast here) says 'Oh, you have to bring this in on the vehicle (never mind the FSM says the procedure is to pull the driveshaft and use a dial indicator to measure axial play) and pay us to inspect it'.
What?!? Any tech or even parts counter guy that can't tell me that the U-joint that goes 'clunk clunk clunk' by hand isn't getting within five meters of my truck. I wouldn't even care if they'd require a few minutes of a tech labor to check it out, but there's zero reason for this to be on the truck & require payment for the tech to pull it off to measure.
OK, fine, that dealer insists on MSRP prices anyways - I've disliked them from the start of my LX journey. Whatever.
Next, let's call up Ed Martin Toyota - which is up past Indianapolis (that's right, putting them on blast here too). They're typically well regarded by all the very well-to-do LC owners that don't work on their own vehicles ($190/hr labor rate, in Indiana of all places...). What's their answer? 'Because you installed this yourself, you have to go back to the dealer that you bought it from. Yes, we realize that's in Kansas, no, we don't care what Toyota's warranty policy says.' Awesome. Makes me legitimately glad I've started to pull a (very small) amount of 'local'-ish LC/LX business away from them.
I can't get Olathe (who I bought this DS from) to pick up the phone, but considering on their webpage they add the stipulations (again, not listed on Toyota's page) of 'noise/vibration isn't covered', I don't have my hopes up. I may give corporate Toyota a call just for funsies, but I have zero doubts that I'll just get the runaround. Pathetic.
So, plan going forward is 2-pronged:
All that being said, one thing that is bizarre to me is that fact that at a stop, just idling in drive, I get a 'woooooom.......woooooom.....woooooom' resonance. Touch the accel pedal just a smidge to raise RPMs (while holding brake) and it goes away, or shift into neutral (which also raises engine RPM) and it goes away. But with the rear driveshaft pulled out? Zero resonance at idle. I have absolutely no idea why that could be the case. Everything that is in motion when I'm at a stop (engine, TC) is still bolted to the frame. Why does adding the driveshaft cause resonance when it's not even spinning?
That gives me concerns that there's something else going on, and that maybe I'll be in the same spot as @fussychicken is where even with a perfect, brand-new driveshaft I'll end up with the cabin resonance with it installed.
I know it got better though, so here's to hoping I guess - that's all this engineer can do at this point. Body mount bushings and the transmission are still under suspicion though with this knowledge. Anyone have a good A750 laying around they'd ship to Indiana?!? Haha.
Oh, and I did get a frame weight - zero affect on anything (as expected). Thanks to @cruiserpatch for throwing that in for freebies on a order though!
So, I've been daily driving the LX for the past month, overall being pretty happy with it other than the overly-stiff AHC (still not sure what that's about). However, as previously mentioned, it wasn't great with the wife a couple weeks ago, and then this week the cabin resonance got BAD again - like, nearly back-to-where-we-started bad. A 25 minute drive to work left me with ear pain for a couple hours! That's not good.
Resonance frequency is very closely tied to driveshaft rotation speed again. Gets bad around 45-50, better from 50-58, annoying around 60-62, better at 63-72, BAD from 73-80 (but at this point, the frequency stops increasing with increasing speed - like it's maxed out or something), and then goes totally smooth at 85+. But how? 6 month old T-case output bearing, 3 month old rear diff, 6 month old rear driveshaft. Flange angles are good (parallel, but offset vertically as expected). Pulling the front drive shaft doesn't change anything.
What gives? As it turns out, this:
Yeah, that's right. There's a solid 10-15 thou of axial play on that U-joint. 6 months old, 3K miles or so. No dents in the drive shaft or anything else that would indicate that it could have gotten smacked HARD enough to do this.
Toyota's spec axial play on this joint is 0.0" - not 0.001", 0.000". Zero play. At all. This one is bad enough it goes 'clink clink clink' in real life when you push it around. The rotation of the joint doesn't feel bad, but I can't imagine that axial play is helping anything - especially given Toyota's zero-tolerance spec on it.
When I drive without the rear driveshaft, zero resonance issues at all. Period. So nice! AHC still translates little stuff way too much, but my ears are happy.
OK, so, driveshaft should be covered under the 12 month Toyota warranty, right? According to Toyota, even though I ordered it from Olathe Toyota in KS, the warranty is honored at any dealer... hah, hah, hah. I hope the Toyota dealers in Indiana get cratered by an asteroid one day.
Nearest dealer (Royal South in Bloomington, putting them on blast here) says 'Oh, you have to bring this in on the vehicle (never mind the FSM says the procedure is to pull the driveshaft and use a dial indicator to measure axial play) and pay us to inspect it'.
What?!? Any tech or even parts counter guy that can't tell me that the U-joint that goes 'clunk clunk clunk' by hand isn't getting within five meters of my truck. I wouldn't even care if they'd require a few minutes of a tech labor to check it out, but there's zero reason for this to be on the truck & require payment for the tech to pull it off to measure.
OK, fine, that dealer insists on MSRP prices anyways - I've disliked them from the start of my LX journey. Whatever.
Next, let's call up Ed Martin Toyota - which is up past Indianapolis (that's right, putting them on blast here too). They're typically well regarded by all the very well-to-do LC owners that don't work on their own vehicles ($190/hr labor rate, in Indiana of all places...). What's their answer? 'Because you installed this yourself, you have to go back to the dealer that you bought it from. Yes, we realize that's in Kansas, no, we don't care what Toyota's warranty policy says.' Awesome. Makes me legitimately glad I've started to pull a (very small) amount of 'local'-ish LC/LX business away from them.
I can't get Olathe (who I bought this DS from) to pick up the phone, but considering on their webpage they add the stipulations (again, not listed on Toyota's page) of 'noise/vibration isn't covered', I don't have my hopes up. I may give corporate Toyota a call just for funsies, but I have zero doubts that I'll just get the runaround. Pathetic.
So, plan going forward is 2-pronged:
- Order new U-joint(s) from Partsouq
- Order complete new driveshaft (again) from Serra before the 25% off sale ends in a day or two.
All that being said, one thing that is bizarre to me is that fact that at a stop, just idling in drive, I get a 'woooooom.......woooooom.....woooooom' resonance. Touch the accel pedal just a smidge to raise RPMs (while holding brake) and it goes away, or shift into neutral (which also raises engine RPM) and it goes away. But with the rear driveshaft pulled out? Zero resonance at idle. I have absolutely no idea why that could be the case. Everything that is in motion when I'm at a stop (engine, TC) is still bolted to the frame. Why does adding the driveshaft cause resonance when it's not even spinning?
That gives me concerns that there's something else going on, and that maybe I'll be in the same spot as @fussychicken is where even with a perfect, brand-new driveshaft I'll end up with the cabin resonance with it installed.
I know it got better though, so here's to hoping I guess - that's all this engineer can do at this point. Body mount bushings and the transmission are still under suspicion though with this knowledge. Anyone have a good A750 laying around they'd ship to Indiana?!? Haha.
Oh, and I did get a frame weight - zero affect on anything (as expected). Thanks to @cruiserpatch for throwing that in for freebies on a order though!
Maybe you should do those body mounts just for grins. There could be some weird combination of slight body movement allowing something to touch at random times. I can't support my hypothesis with logic but at least that would be off the list. Things touching (and sometimes not)
can make some really strange noises and vibes.
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- #235
Yeah, they're certainly on the list! I even have them sitting here.
Just need time - between work, finishing this master's degree, and @MongooseGA keeping me busy designing parts poor Lazarus has gotten pushed to the bottom of the stack! That's OK though - being too busy doing a bunch of stuff I enjoy certainly isn't the worst thing.
Oh man, this is such a bummer to hear. Thanks for the detailed report though. I've been meaning to update the other thread with my latest findings. (TL;DR my newly balanced shaft helped a bit, but didn't fix it all.)
First off about the dealers, yeah, it is super frustrating. When I bought my second rear shaft I talked with the local parts guy at Stevens Creek and asked him point blank: "If I buy this and then find out it is out of balance, will you take it back?" He said yes, but said they wanted to "make sure I installed it right." I didn't like that response, but that is better than what I got from the secondary parts guy at Serra who basically refused to take it back. Feel free to order from Serra, (I do all the time) but don't expect them to take anything back either.
Second about U-joints: I've read some nightmare reports in these forums about how tricky it can be to replace these properly. When I was chatting with Mike at Driveline of Sacramento I was asking him about what he thought about Toyota joints. He said in his experience they are pretty good. I then asked him, what do you think about more "standard" ones like what comes on a Tom Wood's driveshaft. He said in his experience it doesn't make a difference. All that being said, I'm still tempted to try a Tom Wood's driveshaft given it has what I think are beefier 1310 series U-joints. (Toyota Land Cruiser Conventional Rear Drive Shaft - https://4xshaft.com/collections/toyota-land-cruiser/products/toyota-land-cruiser-conventional-rear-drive-shaft) I have been wondering if this is part of the problem. Can a driveshaft still "balance out" properly even if it has bad U-joints?
To your point about transmission, that is exactly what @Usterzai thinks might be his issue here. I really hope that isn't the case for any of us. But he has also gone through the ringer.
Again, just like you, when I take out the rear shaft all together, it is smooth as can be. Which really makes me think it is still something rear driveline related. That being said, I'm starting to wonder if there is some sort of "system issue" here where we might be getting false positives when we take out the rear shaft. In other words, maybe the rear shaft is fine, and maybe the entire rear part of the driveline is fine, but when everything is installed, it is actually activating some other weak link elsewhere? Maybe when everything is "all connected" the front might have an issue even though when you drive in FWD only there isn't anything? I'm not sure, but I'm grasping at straws here....
I also hate to say this, but the fact your nearly brand new U-joints are already unhappy might NOT be a parts quality issue. Maybe there IS something somewhere else in the drivetrain that is causing the vibration that is then wearing out the U-joints prematurely. I know this is probably not an idea you want to think about, but this would jive with all the other issues we have been having trying to track this down.
One more thing to try: Where is your slip yoke? So far, I've had better luck with it by the TC rather than by the rear diff. Doesn't completely fix the issue, but it has been better for me like that.
First off about the dealers, yeah, it is super frustrating. When I bought my second rear shaft I talked with the local parts guy at Stevens Creek and asked him point blank: "If I buy this and then find out it is out of balance, will you take it back?" He said yes, but said they wanted to "make sure I installed it right." I didn't like that response, but that is better than what I got from the secondary parts guy at Serra who basically refused to take it back. Feel free to order from Serra, (I do all the time) but don't expect them to take anything back either.
Second about U-joints: I've read some nightmare reports in these forums about how tricky it can be to replace these properly. When I was chatting with Mike at Driveline of Sacramento I was asking him about what he thought about Toyota joints. He said in his experience they are pretty good. I then asked him, what do you think about more "standard" ones like what comes on a Tom Wood's driveshaft. He said in his experience it doesn't make a difference. All that being said, I'm still tempted to try a Tom Wood's driveshaft given it has what I think are beefier 1310 series U-joints. (Toyota Land Cruiser Conventional Rear Drive Shaft - https://4xshaft.com/collections/toyota-land-cruiser/products/toyota-land-cruiser-conventional-rear-drive-shaft) I have been wondering if this is part of the problem. Can a driveshaft still "balance out" properly even if it has bad U-joints?
To your point about transmission, that is exactly what @Usterzai thinks might be his issue here. I really hope that isn't the case for any of us. But he has also gone through the ringer.
Again, just like you, when I take out the rear shaft all together, it is smooth as can be. Which really makes me think it is still something rear driveline related. That being said, I'm starting to wonder if there is some sort of "system issue" here where we might be getting false positives when we take out the rear shaft. In other words, maybe the rear shaft is fine, and maybe the entire rear part of the driveline is fine, but when everything is installed, it is actually activating some other weak link elsewhere? Maybe when everything is "all connected" the front might have an issue even though when you drive in FWD only there isn't anything? I'm not sure, but I'm grasping at straws here....
I also hate to say this, but the fact your nearly brand new U-joints are already unhappy might NOT be a parts quality issue. Maybe there IS something somewhere else in the drivetrain that is causing the vibration that is then wearing out the U-joints prematurely. I know this is probably not an idea you want to think about, but this would jive with all the other issues we have been having trying to track this down.
One more thing to try: Where is your slip yoke? So far, I've had better luck with it by the TC rather than by the rear diff. Doesn't completely fix the issue, but it has been better for me like that.
You just described what I am going through with 04 LC. Almost similar with some differences and more parts on my end.
I've replaced two drive shafts, swapped out the U-joint on the original, installed a brand-new rear differential, and tried two different transfer cases—one brand new and another with 142k miles. Despite all this, the issue persists.
At idle, I notice a deep "woooom, wooooom" sound. When driving, the vibration worsens around 50–55 mph and 60–70 mph but smooths out slightly above 70. While still noticeable, it's much less pronounced.
If I remove the front driveshaft, the driveline noise becomes overwhelmingly loud—enough to make my ears pop. Removing the rear driveshaft improves things, but I still experience faint shaking around 50 mph. Testing with both shafts removed, I found that the vibration occurs at the same speeds, leading me to believe the issue isn't related to the driveshafts, differentials, or transfer case, as swapping them made no difference.
At this point, I suspect the transmission—possibly a bent output shaft or a failing torque converter. I've changed the transmission fluid twice using WS, following guidance from Mud, but the problem remains.
I'm on the verge of attempting a transmission swap, though working in a single-car garage makes me hesitant. The tight space adds an extra challenge, and I'm unsure if I can manage the removal on my own.
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- #238
Slight correction on my part, with the rear DS out, I do feel a little shakiness up front. It's hard to tell if that's normal and I'm just hyper sensitive, or it's due to torque steer from FWD, or a tire balance issue, or something related to this thread. Still, no cabin resonance!
Agreed at the possibility of something greater going on here - the fact that the 'wooooom' at idle in drive goes away with the rear DS out is bizarre and concerning to me. I've got the added variable of this is an engine that I built from the bare block up. I'm pretty certain I did everything correct, but the possibility of having done something wrong there is always in the back of my head. However, considering that engine RPM doesn't seem to have any effect on the resonance at speed, I think that's OK there.
I do however have doubts that the U-joint got taken out by a bad transmission - especially since it's only one side of the u-joint. That seems highly unlikely to me, but then again, so does a Toyota part failing so quickly....
Slip yoke is by the TC end (which IIRC, is how the manual has it).
I'm still not ruling out that my seemingly overly-stiff AHC that translates little stuff too well is a contributing factor here, and may be part of the 'system of awfulness' that's creating this issue.
What tire size and gear ratio (assuming 4.10 stock)? I'm curious if those resonance road speeds translate over to the same driveshaft rotational speeds that I notice with my 4.30 gears (I'm regeared) and 33" tires.
Does your resonance change at all with engine RPM (i.e, at 50-55 and 60-70 mph, if you shift into 4th gear does it change)? If it doesn't change with engine RPM, to me that rules out your torque converter. How in the world an output shaft could get bent is beyond me, but, I also can't imagine what else it could be...
Come on down to Indiana! I've got a big garage/shop, air conditioning/heating, and plenty of drinks...
I really need to try to find time to change body mount bushings. I know someone else has done this with no effect, but I think that's step one for trying to chase down my suspension translating little stuff, since ALL other bushings in this truck are new OEM.
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- #239
So. Learned a few things recently:
Notice how that washer is off center from the mount? Hmmmmmm... Let's take a peek.
Well, that looks awfully torn...
I can't get a good look at the front body mount rubber (right under the front footwells), but, judging by how off center those are, it makes me wonder...
I know body mounts are considered to never go bad on these trucks, but the 100 series vehicles have never been as old as they are right now. I'm dropping it off to get a custom rear bumper fabbed tomorrow, but when I get it back in a couple of weeks, the first thing I'm doing is changing all the body mounts out. This might also help explain why my rebuilt AHC feels SO ROUGH over the little stuff.
Side note: looking at the TSB for the cabin boom at idle, it's evident that this frame wants to resonant around the 40hz mark - which is the same area that this drone/pressure wants to happen at.
That's probably made worse by the fact that the length of the cabin is perfect to bounce a 40hz sound wave around and get constructive interference.
- Confirmed that the resonance is SO MUCH WORSE when someone is sitting in the passanger seat, with or without the rear driveshaft.
- The below might be why.
Notice how that washer is off center from the mount? Hmmmmmm... Let's take a peek.
Well, that looks awfully torn...
I can't get a good look at the front body mount rubber (right under the front footwells), but, judging by how off center those are, it makes me wonder...
I know body mounts are considered to never go bad on these trucks, but the 100 series vehicles have never been as old as they are right now. I'm dropping it off to get a custom rear bumper fabbed tomorrow, but when I get it back in a couple of weeks, the first thing I'm doing is changing all the body mounts out. This might also help explain why my rebuilt AHC feels SO ROUGH over the little stuff.
Side note: looking at the TSB for the cabin boom at idle, it's evident that this frame wants to resonant around the 40hz mark - which is the same area that this drone/pressure wants to happen at.
That's probably made worse by the fact that the length of the cabin is perfect to bounce a 40hz sound wave around and get constructive interference.
I'll lay under mine and check center on those mounts tomorrow.
