New 02 Sensors = Mileage Increase

[terry.mc]

Some stuff on 02's
Hope this adds some FAQ's to the discussion. EFI is quite sophisticated, but there is no question that the introduction of Lamda (O2 sensor/s) is one of the greatest discoveries in the progression of fueling systems.

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ Performance Tuning
Chicago IL
'94 FZJ80 Supercharged

Wow, thanks Scott.

 

[CJF]

Again:

Anyone replacing these please gather as much before/after emissions/mileage data as possible.

T'anks,

Curtis

 

[RavenTai]

Some stuff on 02's
O2 should be considered a 100k part maximum. Average life is around 60k before mixture is affected. Between 60-100 it's probably going to be operational (albeit slow), but it's due. At 100k it's done. My 20years with Bosch O2's show they are a 60k part.

I think that is a little conservative for these O2 sensors, although if you have a fat wallet I guess I cannot hurt to PM them. 150K here with original O2’s and mileage is normal, they may or may not need changing soon, but they were certainly not “done” 50K ago

Rear O2 sensors vs front (OBD 2). Rear O2 sensors are long term fuel trim, so their ECU sampling rate is much slower than the fronts. They change the baseline fuel settings, then the front O2 changes the immediate fuel mixture.

Short term fuel trim is based on readings from the foreword O2 sensor, long term trim is a software event based on trends of short term fuel trim. because of the chemistry happenign in the catalytic converter signals post a working CC are not very useful for calculating mixture. The rear O2 on an OBD II vehicle is for monitoring the efficiency of the catalytic converters as mandated by the EPA under OBDII so that it can be replaced as soon as it goes bad.

From Toyota manuals:

OBD II vehicles require two oxygen sensors: one before and one after the
catalytic converter. The oxygen sensor, or air/fuel ratio sensor, before the
catalytic converter is used by the ECM to adjust the air/fuel ratio. This
sensor in OBD II terms is referred to as sensor 1. On V-type engines one
sensor will be referred to as Bank 1 Sensor 1 and the other as Bank 2
Sensor 1. The oxygen sensor after the catalytic converter is used by the
ECM primarily to determine catalytic converter efficiency. This sensor is
referred to as sensor 2. With two catalytic converters, one sensor will be
Bank 1 Sensor 2 and the other is Bank 2 Sensor 2.

As the engine and sensors change over time, the ECM needs a method to
adjust the injection duration for improved driveability and emission performance.
Fuel trim is a program in the ECM designed to compensate for
these changes.
When in closed loop, the ECM modifies the final injection duration based
on the oxygen sensor. These minor corrections are needed to maintain the
correct air/fuel ratio. However, if more correction than normal (as determined
by the ECM) is needed, the ECM will use the fuel trim strategy to
compensate. Fuel trim allows the ECM to learn and adjust the injection

duration quickly by reducing the correction time back to normal. This
means that driveability and performance will not suffer.
Fuel trim can be observed on the Diagnostic Tester as a percentage. A
positive percentage means that the ECM has increased the duration and
a negative percentage means the ECM has decreased the duration.
There are two different fuel trim values that affect final injection duration
and can be observed by the technician; short term fuel trim
(SHORT FT) and long term fuel trim (LONG FT). SHORT FT is a temporary
addition or subtraction to the basic injection duration. LONG FT is
part of the basic injection duration calculation and it is stored in the
ECM's memory.
SHORT FT is based on the oxygen sensor, and therefore, it only functions
in closed loop. SHORT FT responds rapidly to changes in the oxygen
sensor. If SHORT FT is varying close to 0%, little or no correction is
needed. When SHORT FT percentage is positive, the ECM has added
fuel by increasing the duration. A negative percentage means the ECM
has subtracted fuel by decreasing the duration. The SHORT FT value is
temporary and not stored when the ignition key is turned off.
SHORT FT is used to modify the long term fuel trim. When the SHORT
FT remains higher or lower longer than expected, the ECM will add or
subtract this value to the LONG FT.
LONG FT is stored in memory because it is part of the basic injection
duration calculation. The ECM uses the SHORT FT to modify the LONG
FT. The LONG FT does not react rapidly to sudden changes, it only
changes when the ECM decides to use the SHORT FT value to modify
the LONG FT. LONG FT is stored in the ECM's memory and it is not
erased when the ignition key is turned off. Because LONG FT is part of
the basic injection duration, it affects injection duration in closed and
open loop. Like the SHORT FT, when LONG FT is at 0% there has been
no modification to the basic injection duration. A positive percentage
means the ECM is adding fuel; a negative percentage, subtracting fuel.
The fuel system monitor is designed to set a DTC if the fuel injection
system is going to exceed emission standards. This monitor uses the
fuel trim correction levels for detection. The amount of fuel trim correction
that will set a DTC varies with each engine type and model year.

Generic vs specific. All O2 sensors (currently all toyotas trucks use either 1,3 or 4 wire narrow band O2's) operate the same and have only 1 ECU signal wire. The operating voltage of a narrow band O2 sensor is .1-.9v (.5 is considered Stoich).

At the stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (14.7:1), oxygen sensor voltage
output is approximately 0.45 volts.

The difference between O2 sensors are the tip openings and tip depth (read sampling in the exhaust flow), and harness. 1 wire O2's require exhaust heat to run properly. 3 and 4 wire O2's are the heated type, the 4 wire adds an additional chassis ground wire.

nothing about weather it actually will fit in the hole?

Splicing wires. Saves money and is a good idea. The problem is that most folks want to solder the connection. That's not a good idea, use crimp connectors and heat shrink tubing. That's because the O2 reference signal on most 3 and 4 wire O2's is thru the wiring jacket itself.

Why would I want to hack in some “60K mile” O2 sensors when the factory units bolt right in fit properly and last much longer?


It would be bad to solder to the shielding and the wire inside the shielding together, but that shielding does not carry any signal it purpose is to protect the wire inside from EMI. Since the shielding is grounded Soldering the internal wire to the shielding would kill the signal, same if you were to accidentilly crimp the signal wire to the shieldign it would have the same bad effect.

Interchangeability. Technically speaking, generics or 'substitutes' are not legal per the EPA. However, ANY narrow band O2 sensor will interchange. The difference is how long it will last (see tip depth and tip opening) in a given application. I like to use the ford applications (thunderbird SC) cuz they last a long time IME, especially in inducted motors.

Currently, narrow band O2 sensors vehicles are considered by the EPA to be WOTF (Wide Open Throttle Free). This means exactly that at WOT, the computer ignores the 02 signal and uses tables addresses for fuel. The wide band O2 was introduced a couple years ago to address WOTF, and expect the EPA to require them on the next OBD series. They are extremely accurate, and can't be 'drowned' like the narrow band type. Wide Band O2's are NOT interchangeable with narrow Band O2's.

Until the computer recieves a valid signal from the O2 sensor, it assigns a fixed default signal (usually .5 volts). If O2 sensors go bad, or the computer trips a code, the ECU uses 'limp home mode' and assigns a fixed value to the O2 sensor input in the tables. This is usually accompianied by a pretty significant drop in gas mileage.

It would be more technically correct to say that until warm up is complete as determined by the water temperature sensor the computer is in open loop using long term fuel trim without any short term fuel trim from the O2 sensor.

OBD2 (rear) O2's are designed to add or subtract 15% mixture from baseline fuel tables. After 15%, a CEL will appear, indicating that either a too rich (-% number) or too lean (+%number) has exceeded the normal 15% window. A new rear O2 will hover at 0 +/- 2-3%, after mega miles it will swing up to +/- 10-11% and eventually pop the CEL at +/- 15%.

Huh? Source? And the fifteen or twenty years of whatever it is you are doing today is not a source.

The Front O2's should be quick to react to throttle inputs. On OBD II cars, my test is to rev it to 3k and see how long it takes the O2 sensor signal to stabilize. Old, either sticks, or is very slow to react.

Before or along with, checking/replacing O2 sensors, beware that many O2 sensor R&R are misdiagnosed because of an air leak. Make sure all vacuum hoses are in good shape, especially the one going to the fuel pressure regulator. As well, I'd seriously consider a new Fuel Pressure Regulator at 100k too, it's not a lifetime part.

Hope this adds some FAQ's to the discussion. EFI is quite sophisticated, but there is no question that the introduction of Lamda (O2 sensor/s) is one of the greatest discoveries in the progression of fueling systems.

Scott Justusson
QSHIPQ Performance Tuning
Chicago IL
'94 FZJ80 Supercharged

 

[PDoyle]

Would it help to change the 02's, then remove the batt cable for 20 min. and reinstall to relearn ???

 

[SUMOTOY]

I think that is a little conservative for these O2 sensors, although if you have a fat wallet I guess I cannot hurt to PM them. 150K here with original O2’s and mileage is normal, they may or may not need changing soon, but they were certainly not “done” 50K ago

Mileage isn't the primary indicator RT, the FSM suggests a (note: use no load!) analog voltmeter, and count the number of variations in 10 seconds. 8 or less means the O2 is getting slow, 8 or more is within the acceptable range. This is a sampling test that indicates how slow an O2 reacts to change. O2 sensors must last 100k per the EPA emissions rules. That doesn't mean that they aren't slow, they just have to pass the emissions test.

Short term fuel trim is based on readings from the foreword O2 sensor, long term trim is a software event based on trends of short term fuel trim. because of the chemistry happenign in the catalytic converter signals post a working CC are not very useful for calculating mixture. The rear O2 on an OBD II vehicle is for monitoring the efficiency of the catalytic converters as mandated by the EPA under OBDII so that it can be replaced as soon as it goes bad.

Be careful here RT. I routinely use LTFT to tune high performance vehicles. It's a great indicator of proper fuel mixture. It is a software event, more a calculated long term average. MAF gives the calculation of air, fuel is assigned from the tables based on that. The short term (front) O2's do instant corrections of that baseline fuel. The LTFT (Rear) require a much slower and set rules of sampling. What LTFT indicate is if your software calculated baseline is too rich or lean. It adjusts the baseline mixture tables for that. Your quotation of the FSM doesn't counter any of my posts to date.

nothing about weather it actually will fit in the hole?

RT do you mean the actual sensor? All O2 sensors to date use a 18x1.50 thread, that's been the industry standard since 1981. I'll add, in fact, my 4 runner turbo had the 2 hole plate design. I inserted a stock Bosch Audi app O2 sensor into the plate hole.

Why would I want to hack in some “60K mile” O2 sensors when the factory units bolt right in fit properly and last much longer?

Cuz there may be no difference between them, or there might even be a better one? Toyota doesn't spec some high tech O2 sensors RT. They are a standard, off the shelf 4 wire O2 sensorn (I just looked at the ones on my truck this morning, it's a standard issue 4 wire). Can any O2 sensor last longer in one environment than another? Sure. Me, I'd just make sure the tips and the slot in it are close to what you have. Then again, the slots have changed in technology since the early 90's.

It would be bad to solder to the shielding and the wire inside the shielding together, but that shielding does not carry any signal it purpose is to protect the wire inside from EMI. Since the shielding is grounded Soldering the internal wire to the shielding would kill the signal, same if you were to accidentilly crimp the signal wire to the shieldign it would have the same bad effect.

??? No. RT, There's no EMI shielding on a signal wire between the O2 and the O2 plug, have you looked at yours? 1 and 3 wire O2's typically use EMI shielding between the ECU and the plug, but that was pretty much dropped when the 4 and 5 wire O2's came out. I just cked my 94 again to see if Toyota did something redundant. Stock toyota O2's, 4 wire, no shielding. Even the Wide Band O2's don't use EMI shielding.

It would be more technically correct to say that until warm up is complete as determined by the water temperature sensor the computer is in open loop using long term fuel trim without any short term fuel trim from the O2 sensor.

That depends on the year and make of the vehicle RT. Water temp sensor input to closed loop appeared around 1998 in most marques, and in some of the early OBD II cars. Prior to that, closed loop was defined as a proper (fluctuating) O2 signal. That certainly would apply to those of us without OBD II vehicles.

Huh? Source? And the fifteen or twenty years of whatever it is you are doing today is not a source.

Source of what RT? Lambda isn't some magic, it's part of trimming fuel introduced in 1981. Closed loop operation and open loop operation are the heart and soul of any EFI tweeking, whether using a single O2, duel O2 short term and long term fuel, even Wide Band O2. All OBD II cars have trip codes for the rear O2 sensors. If it's an out of range or malfunction code, that is based on a preset value (see your FSM quote above). Normally, narrow band O2 sensors can compensate around 10% +/-. Normally OBD II LTFT will be in the 4% +/- range, less if new, more if old. After 10%, the trip to 15% and more is not going to be long, because that fluctuation is an indicator that something is wrong in the fueling. Normally, below 15%LTFT you will see CO stay at 0 = EPA is happy. Above 15% LTFT CO will start to take a trip, and that's where you get busted in emissions. Above 15% LTFT CO usually is predicated or accompianied by a rise in HC (unburnt fuel = Hydrocarbons). So, OBD II usually triggers when a value stored in LTFT is beyond 15% +/-. I could get into a lot of detail here on adaptation and readiness codes, resets, etc, but this already appears a bit nerdy...

The guys that work on this for a living, not only know it's function, but it can be used as an effective tool to specify fuel injectors, fuel pressure regulators, even horsepower. I'm no guru, just well heeled and experienced in using closed loop operation to properly dial in the operation of a fuel injected engine. I routinely use various O2 sensors in (esp turbos) cars to find one that may last longer than the stocker. In the normally aspirated I6, I'd expect the O2 to have a decent service life. Turbo or SC the thing, I'd expect the O2 to have a very short service life. I even suspect there is a better O2 to use when you add force induction.

I'm fairly new to the 80 in comparison to the audis. I'm not at all new to O2 operation, and using it as an effective tool to achieve proper fueling and operation. Right now, given the number of fueling issues with superchargers on this very forum, I suspect this is a tool not many are familiar with. Happy to apply my experience here, but some baseline might be good.

Cheers!

Scott Justusson

 

[SUMOTOY]

Would it help to change the 02's, then remove the batt cable for 20 min. and reinstall to relearn ???

It might, but we may want to differentiate between OBD II systems and earlier systems. OBD II is present if there are front and rear (pre and post cat) oxy sensors on a toyota. Prior to OBD II, there is only a front (pre cat) O2. OBD II was mandated to be present in all 1996 MY or newer vehicles.

Removing batt, resetting the computer, and other procedures can be used for relearn/reset. It's not mandatory, if you put a good O2 in your vehicle, the computer will learn it over time regardless. I've reset LTFT many times, but I've never had that solve the problem of the CEL without replacing some component. If no CEL, you can just let the computer adapt to the new O2 over time.

SJ

 

[XXXR]

Well for 180 bucks compared to the some odd thousands I plan to spend on the rig, it's worth a shot! I'll let you all know if it solves my "stink" issue.

(FJ80 with 130k, O2's never replaced as of yet)

 

[RavenTai]

The short term (front) O2's do instant corrections of that baseline fuel. The LTFT (Rear) require a much slower and set rules of sampling. What LTFT indicate is if your software calculated baseline is too rich or lean. It adjusts the baseline mixture tables for that. Your quotation of the FSM doesn't counter any of my posts to date.

yes they do and you jsut abotu said it youself. if LTFT is based on STFT and STFT comes from the front O2 then so does LTFT.

LTFT does not come from the rear O2.

RT do you mean the actual sensor? All O2 sensors to date use a 18x1.50 thread, that's been the industry standard since 1981. I'll add, in fact, my 4 runner turbo had the 2 hole plate design. I inserted a stock Bosch Audi app O2 sensor into the plate hole.

aparently Toyota was not at this convention, they are flanged. the O2 body has no hex so the plate is not threaded.

??? No. RT, There's no EMI shielding on a signal wire between the O2 and the O2 plug, have you looked at yours? 1 and 3 wire O2's typically use EMI shielding between the ECU and the plug, but that was pretty much dropped when the 4 and 5 wire O2's came out. I just cked my 94 again to see if Toyota did something redundant. Stock toyota O2's, 4 wire, no shielding. Even the Wide Band O2's don't use EMI shielding.

look in the EWD for a 96 it is shielded.

That depends on the year and make of the vehicle RT. Water temp sensor input to closed loop appeared around 1998 in most marques, and in some of the early OBD II cars. Prior to that, closed loop was defined as a proper (fluctuating) O2 signal. That certainly would apply to those of us without OBD II vehicles.

yes I guess that could depend on year. but you original post was abotu OBDII.

Source of what RT?

rear O2 forming LTFT.

 

[SUMOTOY]

Obd Ii 101

yes they do and you jsut abotu said it youself. if LTFT is based on STFT and STFT comes from the front O2 then so does LTFT.

LTFT does not come from the rear O2.

RT, it exactly does. Look, take your OBDII reader, put in rear O2 values as a log. Rear O2 values ARE long term fuel trim. If you get
-10% reading consistently, that means over the long term, fuel injector baseline is being leaned out by 10% over the long term. Not sure what the confusion is. For what conditions are required for a legit sample, look in the test section of the FSM. If you just reset the rear O2's to 0, and you haven't done anything to the machine, you will see, over the long term, the rear O2 reading to creep back up to 10%. That's long term fuel trim, by definition. I suppose you could get it some other way, but OBD II gives it to you.

Further, LTFT measure isn't *just* a catalyst reference. LTFT CEL can be triggered by a lot of other issues. Sticking fuel injectors, bad plugs, air leaks, bad MAF signal...

You can debate me here on it RT, that doesn't change how LTFT is measured on OBDII, and it's usefulness as a tool in proper EFI tuning and modification.

aparently Toyota was not at this convention, they are flanged. the O2 body has no hex so the plate is not threaded.

Get an aftermarket O2 sensor for a toyota with a flange, you will get the plate, a gasket, and a threaded O2. OR, you can remove the stock O2, and thread the hole to 18 x1.50.

look in the EWD for a 96 it is shielded.

NO. RT, the reason I asked above if you *looked* at your truck is because the factory FSM is NOT correct. In fact, FSM shows my 94 as shielded signal wire from the O2 to the ecu. It's not, and I really doubt any toyota application used a shielded cable between the O2 and the plug for it. Even my stock 87 4Runner turbo (single wire), didn't use a shielded cable to the plug. I didn't bother to ck upstream of the plug, becasue the topic was splicing in a universal O2 sensor (pre plug). I can say that most 4+ wire O2's with the chassis ground, deleted the shielding from the ecu to the plug.

yes I guess that could depend on year. but you original post was abotu OBDII.

.

Well, it does depend on year, period.

rear O2 forming LTFT.

RT, the rear O2 reads LTFT, that's exactly and it's only job. What else does it do?

BTW, I read up a bit on the OBDII, and from what I can decipher, toyota is no exception to the 15% rule with regards to rear O2 triggering a CEL.

I hope to not get mired in LTFT readings, other than those that have superchargers with OBD II have an easier job of correcting fuel issues than those of us with a single O2.

SJ

 

[cruiserdan]

The CA 93-94 vehicles have a single sensor in front of each cat, just like federal models. 1994-up 80's are all 50 states emissions. The only difference between a 93 federal and a 93 CA is the EGR temp sensor.

 

[cary]

 

[SUMOTOY]

The CA 93-94 vehicles have a single sensor in front of each cat, just like federal models. 1994-up 80's are all 50 states emissions. The only difference between a 93 federal and a 93 CA is the EGR temp sensor.

Interesting, another FSM correction Dan. The 1993 FSM shows front and rear O2 sensors, and gives the test conditions for both. It's always a pleasure to correct FSM's, but in the case of turbo/SC trucks vs dual O2's, I'd rather have them, it makes my job of correcting fuel easier.

Also interesting to note that in the 93 manual I have, it also shows EMI wiring to the O2 (which it doesn't have) and it shows the 15% LTFT (rear O2 value) as a max condition for CEL. I'd bet that page hasn't changed much with the addition of OBD II in 1996. DTC codes 25 and 26 (Air Fuel Ratio Lean Malfunction and Air Fuel Rich Malfunction respectively). It also shows the specific conditions for test and reset of LTFT values (readiness code values), which I also suspect hasn't changed. I believe the reason for it being in the earlier manuals, is because the EPA/manufacturers having a tug of war on OBDII standards in the early 90's. All manufacturers knew it was coming, just didn't know when or how. Hence, some interesting FSM arrived without the proper editing. In fact, Audi has a 1995.5 edition of a turbo car because it didn't carry the proper OBDII plug, but it has all OBD II functions.



Scott Justusson

 

[SUMOTOY]

The CA 93-94 vehicles have a single sensor in front of each cat, just like federal models. 1994-up 80's are all 50 states emissions. The only difference between a 93 federal and a 93 CA is the EGR temp sensor.

corrected in the post, o holy one with the factory parts computer.

SJ

 

[Rogorn]

they list cheaper ones but is there a real quality diff or are o2 sensors "all the same"?

For what it's worth, "there's a man with a gun over there..." :whoops: Wrong forum!

Bosch developed most of the O2 sensor systems utilized in passenger vehicles today. Their design licensed out to the different auto mfgs.

One of my old engineering buddys works at the Bosch plant in Charleston, SC. One of the parts they manufacture are O2 sensors. He laughed when I asked him about differences, OEM, after market, etc. Given a particular type, 1-wire, 2-wire, 4-wire with heater, 5-wire, etc., he said no differences between after market and OEM. If made by Bosch, they are the same. Packaging would be different of course.

But, he would not go so far as telling me they made sensors for Denso, NJK, and other Japanese mfgs. Come to think about it, I never asked that question!

 

[SUMOTOY]

For what it's worth, "there's a man with a gun over there..." :whoops: Wrong forum!

Bosch developed most of the O2 sensor systems utilized in passenger vehicles today. Their design licensed out to the different auto mfgs.

One of my old engineering buddys works at the Bosch plant in Charleston, SC. One of the parts they manufacture are O2 sensors. He laughed when I asked him about differences, OEM, after market, etc. Given a particular type, 1-wire, 2-wire, 4-wire with heater, 5-wire, etc., he said no differences between after market and OEM. If made by Bosch, they are the same. Packaging would be different of course.

But, he would not go so far as telling me they made sensors for Denso, NJK, and other Japanese mfgs. Come to think about it, I never asked that question!

They don't always, but they license it. I had this discussion years ago with my buddy that works at Bosch. He too chuckled at the very thought of 'differences' between sensors. I also got the benefit of bending the ear of a Delphi engineer over some beers. His JOB was to test Bosch O2's, so they could do a failure analysis, and a feasability study of them. I got a lot of that data for free, and a lot of the 'castoffs' as well. I interchanged with regularity, especially on the turbo cars, and gave feedback to him on which lasted longer (not at all the application)

Luckily in that time, I also got a lot of expert kabitzing on EFI, modifications, readings, OBDII, and their respective histories.

I now try to spend some of my time trying to get baselines on various forums I frequent. I learned long ago, that it's a frustrating endeavor, but I do enjoy the liveliness (and stubborness) of some of the discussions.

You might also want to ask him about the O2 reference signal vs crimp/solder. The last time I spoke to soldering a generic O2, I swear my buddy visibly winced.

SJ

 

[Rogorn]

You might also want to ask him about the O2 reference signal vs crimp/solder. The last time I spoke to soldering a generic O2, I swear my buddy visibly winced.

SJ

Last fall, or was it over the summer? ... What do folks say is the 1st thing to go? hmmm... Sorry, I don't recall...

Ok, I finally got around to replacing the two O2 sensors on my '93 LC. I bought the 4-wire Bosch aftermarket with the universal screw-together crimping devices. I swear soldering would have been faster and easier (as I know how to solder) but since the sensors came with the crimping connectors...

Both were less than half the price of one OEM at my local dealer, even after their proffered "discount". (About $380 each) Yes, the same dealer that twice told me the power antenna would not take a mast-refill kit and I had to replace the entire unit... I've since learned otherwise in this forum.

I'll ask my friend down in Charleston about the crimp vs soldering. He doesn't know it yet, but we are stopping by on our drive down to the Orlando area in a few weeks. We'll hoist some pints and get into theoreticals and such. Should be fun.

 

[PabloCruise]

Well for 180 bucks compared to the some odd thousands I plan to spend on the rig, it's worth a shot! I'll let you all know if it solves my "stink" issue.

(FJ80 with 130k, O2's never replaced as of yet)

I'll be interested in the stink issue - you are the only one to bring it up.

I wheel a 40, so no O2 there, but my Civic started stinking lately. My mechanic asked if I ever changed the O2 sensor - first question he asked when I told him about the stink. Second question was does my mileage fluctuate? It does - 1 tank will get 35 MPG, next one 28 MPG...

Car has 175k on the clock...

 

[cruiserdan]

Both were less than half the price of one OEM at my local dealer, even after their proffered "discount". (About $380 each) Yes, the same dealer that twice told me the power antenna would not take a mast-refill kit and I had to replace the entire unit... I've since learned otherwise in this forum.

380 bucks A PIECE?....


Toyota's published LIST price is $145.34 each. If you can find them under the pair part number a SET is $264.46.

Did the guy give you the courtisy of wearing a mask and pointing his six-shooter at you?.......

 

[cpg]

Mine lasted 165k I replaced as maintenance they were not bad.

 

[cary]

380 bucks A PIECE?....


Toyota's published LIST price is $145.34 each. If you can find them under the pair part number a SET is $264.46.

Did the guy give you the courtisy of wearing a mask and pointing his six-shooter at you?.......

Sounds like he went to the same dealer that told me a new Tranny pan was $400, when the smartshopper price was less than $100.

ALWAYS CHECK WITH C'DAN BEFORE YOU DECIDE HOW EXPENSIVE FACTORY PARTS ARE V. AFTERMARKET.