Builds My LC 80 thread. (1 Viewer)

[Dave 2000]

Hi Dave,

I've been following your modification with great interest and am now contemplating fitting an electric fan or fans to my 80 which is virtually the same spec as yours was when you started, even down to the excellent colour, though mine is an auto. Your efforts and expertise are an inspiration and greatly appreciated by me at least.

Firstly I'd be very grateful if you would share whatever research you did into fan sizing and the process that led to the choice of fans you made. Secondly, it seems to me to be logical that the temperature switch would work better and more consistently in the top hose, particularly in an auto where additional heat is dumped into the bottom of the radiator from the gearbox. It is, after all, the temperature of the water leaving the engine that needs to be controlled. You mentioned an intention to add a "low water" sensor to the top hose, was this the only reason for fit ting the temperature switches in the bottom house and would you do the same layout again if you were starting again?

How useful in reality is the two speed fan, are there real world improved results as compared with using, or wiring for, a single speed?
Cheers
John

Hi John, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

I have been an advocate of electric fans since I fitted a Rover V8 into a Ford Granada and later an Escort, this was the only way to get some cooling without moving the engine back into the bulkhead, 40 plus years ago I never had the money or resources so electric was the way to go, I never turned back.

Before you start I would ensure you have zero issues with your cooling system and it is in top condition.

Fan size is based on covering as much of the radiator as possible, this can be done by using two smaller fans on opposite corners of the radiator or a single large fan placed wherever it will fit. Ultimately you want as much of the radiator core to be exposed to the air movement drawn through by the fan/s as possible.

Temperature switch/s position was chosen mainly because the top hose is limited in space to fit the low level sensor, the lower longer hose lends itself to fitting a tube that would be long enough to hold the three switches I had planned to fit. Whilst I do not think it makes much odds where the switches are but, if we assume in your case (being auto) the lower part of the radiator would 'see' the temperature increase from the transmission and the switches would in effect responded earlier, thus bringing on the fan earlier so perhaps more important, if I did not want a low coolant level sensor in the top hose I would have put the switches there, the availability of high temperature switches is far greater than the lower temp ranges needed for the lower hose.

The are a couple of reasons I opted for fitment of a single (two speed) fan. For an electric fan to perform correctly it needs plenty of amps, the standard alternator on the 80 is generally capable of supplying those amps however, under certain circumstances you may find it at it's limit, also if you are looking for more effective air conditioning than you already have, then the faster fan will be needed. If you intend to keep the standard alternator, then you may find your slower idle in 'D' will drop the alternator speed enough that a high speed fan's amperage draw may not be met. By having the two speed option you will find the low speed is generally all that is needed but an example when the standard alternator would be struggling would be a very hot day with the AC on and sitting in traffic, the fan/s would not be cooling at full speed and depending on other electrical equipment being on (high end stereo for example) then you could find you are relying on the battery to supply the power needed by the various loads.

So to the alternator, upgrades are in abundance but ensure you get one that is not a standard unit that has been modified to provide a higher output, this is often at the expense of low speed output, the complete reverse of what you actually want. Consider the American Sequoia unit, a couple of variations one with 130 amp output and another 150, there may be more but I found a 150 version and with a minor mod of the adjuster bracket it bolted in, and the oval plug at the rear was identical to my standard unit, note there are oval and square plug options, it make no odds as the change to either takes just a few minutes, you will need to increase the main charge cable to the battery.

Something else I have discovered over the years, look for a fan/s that come as OE on a production car, EVERY aftermarket fan I have tried including SPAL, Kenlowe and others have not lived up to expectations, they are fine as 'boosters' but for serious cooling I personally would not bother, OE gear has to be designed to allow for hundreds of thousands of miles of use.

Re wiring, easy as wiring up a set of spotlights. If going single speed (I am assuming the fan chosen is capable of all demands it will be asked to meet), then you will want a very good relay perhaps a Cole Hersee (check spelling) solenoid type, this would be easy enough to do. Wiring in two speeds and adding redundancy takes a little more effort for example, I used two separate switches to control the two speeds, if one fails the other is there, there is also a third switch to indicate the engine is heading towards an overheating situation, I also have dashboard indication of fan status, and have the option to disable the fan if wading in deep water, so the wiring can be as simple or more involved depending on your need.

I hope that helps John, feel free to give me a shout if you need any help.

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

@kevsta hiya mate, a combination of workload, internet availability, and other 'stuff' has kept me away from the laptop for awhile. Your 80 is really moving on now and looking great! As an asides, I would check your front flexible brake hoses when at full articulation, depending on the lift you may find they can come under tension so not good. Yes the trans cooler is mega important IMO so get it plumbed in asap.

You certainly have been busy and I am envious of your progress. My 'chippy' has gone back to the UK for a month so the next drawer addition will be on the back burner till he returns. I have not had a lot of time to do anything on mine for the above reasons but did get out over the weekend. Done some trails over the Granada mountains and down in the valleys, a productive couple of days were had by me and a couple of members of Landcruiser.net club in the UK, we ticked off some runs that may be of interest at the next visit of other club members from the UK/France in October. Some were definite dead ends often only found after an hour or so drive but good experience all the same, others needed further investigation which would involve getting over some sofa sized boulders so that will be looked at again in a few weeks.

Keep up the good work Kev.

Regards

Dave

EDIT:

Sorry Kev, forgot the likes, now duly done.

 

[Dave 2000]

Update time.

@ 254,753 miles, oil and filter change. Power steering fluid changed, I noticed the pump seal 'sweating' again so gave the fluid a change as a stop gap added in a drop of brake fluid and I must get the pump off and do the seals.

A minor change to the wiring of the electric engine cooling fan. The fan was wired so it could come on with the ignition off to combat any heat soak should it occur however, when working on the engine it was possible for the fan to come on. I had originally cut into the wire that led from the lower temperature switch in the bottom hose and used this to prevent the fan coming on when wading, now the fan switch could not bring on the fan. What could happen though is the increase in pressure picked up by the AC trinary switch could bypass the fan wading switch and bring the fan in at high speed, the change in the wiring now prevents the fan coming on if the wading switch is enabled regardless of the coolant temperature switch and/or activation of the trinary switch.

The new tyres seem to be doing their job, no issues during use regardless of terrain and even during flood waters, the weekend's trail saw a variation of tarmac, salted roads int he mountains and sharp flint/rocks in the valleys, no apparent damage and yes I did aim for the twigs!

The heavy rain we have had for the last two days has seen the sealing up of the rear side windows has been successful with no apparent leaks.

On another note though, the new brakes I fitted before Xmas 2015 did display a degree of fade on a long winding descent from 2000 metres, not enough to panic but enough to cause me to ease back from the lead car and test them a little harder to make sure they were going to stop me if need be. They were fine, but worthy of note I was only carrying perhaps a third of my normal off road gear as it was a brief trip and not too far from civilisation. I will looking into the pad wear/type and having a chat with the suppliers to see if they have a pad that may increase pedal pressure but offer better fade resistance.

EDIT: In an attempt to tidy the cables at the battery terminals I moved the battery voltage sensor connection away from the battery to the positive bus bar, this brought about 'bleeps' from the battery sensor as the fan engaged and disengaged, I will move the sensor back to the battery as this has never happened before.

Other than that all is good.

regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Hi John, sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

I have been an advocate of electric fans since I fitted a Rover V8 into a Ford Granada and later an Escort, this was the only way to get some cooling without moving the engine back into the bulkhead, 40 plus years ago I never had the money or resources so electric was the way to go, I never turned back.

Before you start I would ensure you have zero issues with your cooling system and it is in top condition.

Fan size is based on covering as much of the radiator as possible, this can be done by using two smaller fans on opposite corners of the radiator or a single large fan placed wherever it will fit. Ultimately you want as much of the radiator core to be exposed to the air movement drawn through by the fan/s as possible.

Temperature switch/s position was chosen mainly because the top hose is limited in space to fit the low level sensor, the lower longer hose lends itself to fitting a tube that would be long enough to hold the three switches I had planned to fit. Whilst I do not think it makes much odds where the switches are but, if we assume in your case (being auto) the lower part of the radiator would 'see' the temperature increase from the transmission and the switches would in effect responded earlier, thus bringing on the fan earlier so perhaps more important, if I did not want a low coolant level sensor in the top hose I would have put the switches there, the availability of high temperature switches is far greater than the lower temp ranges needed for the lower hose.

The are a couple of reasons I opted for fitment of a single (two speed) fan. For an electric fan to perform correctly it needs plenty of amps, the standard alternator on the 80 is generally capable of supplying those amps however, under certain circumstances you may find it at it's limit, also if you are looking for more effective air conditioning than you already have, then the faster fan will be needed. If you intend to keep the standard alternator, then you may find your slower idle in 'D' will drop the alternator speed enough that a high speed fan's amperage draw may not be met. By having the two speed option you will find the low speed is generally all that is needed but an example when the standard alternator would be struggling would be a very hot day with the AC on and sitting in traffic, the fan/s would not be cooling at full speed and depending on other electrical equipment being on (high end stereo for example) then you could find you are relying on the battery to supply the power needed by the various loads.

So to the alternator, upgrades are in abundance but ensure you get one that is not a standard unit that has been modified to provide a higher output, this is often at the expense of low speed output, the complete reverse of what you actually want. Consider the American Sequoia unit, a couple of variations one with 130 amp output and another 150, there may be more but I found a 150 version and with a minor mod of the adjuster bracket it bolted in, and the oval plug at the rear was identical to my standard unit, note there are oval and square plug options, it make no odds as the change to either takes just a few minutes, you will need to increase the main charge cable to the battery.

Something else I have discovered over the years, look for a fan/s that come as OE on a production car, EVERY aftermarket fan I have tried including SPAL, Kenlowe and others have not lived up to expectations, they are fine as 'boosters' but for serious cooling I personally would not bother, OE gear has to be designed to allow for hundreds of thousands of miles of use.

Re wiring, easy as wiring up a set of spotlights. If going single speed (I am assuming the fan chosen is capable of all demands it will be asked to meet), then you will want a very good relay perhaps a Cole Hersee (check spelling) solenoid type, this would be easy enough to do. Wiring in two speeds and adding redundancy takes a little more effort for example, I used two separate switches to control the two speeds, if one fails the other is there, there is also a third switch to indicate the engine is heading towards an overheating situation, I also have dashboard indication of fan status, and have the option to disable the fan if wading in deep water, so the wiring can be as simple or more involved depending on your need.

I hope that helps John, feel free to give me a shout if you need any help.

regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Thanks Dave, that's really helpful. I do like the idea of a "low water" warning and was trying to plot some means of getting a chamber and floating magnet plumbed into the heater piping on the firewall to operate a reed switch and warning light as a more sophisticated version of the usual "no heat" early warning, which doesn't work so well in summer.

Interested to see that you were fitting V8s to Fords, though surprised it was only 40 years ago. I always wanted a Cortina Savage estate to tow my bikes to Scrambles but couldn't afford one, and couldn't persuade my dad that his mark 1 estate needed a proper engine. Happy days!

My experience of Kenlowes on various land rovers and range rovers has not always been a happy one as they always seemed a bit light weight and underpowered for the job in hand. I have looked at various fans on eBay from expensive German beasts with big engines and they seem to be very expensive. What are you actually using? I have also put a big oil cooler on and bypassed the integral transmission cooler after hearing a horror story of water in the transmission from a rad failure.
Incidentally I have also done the water temperature mod and have a couple of spare resistor sets here in London if anyone out there wants to do the same.
Cheers,
John

 

[Dave 2000]

Ah the Savage by Jeff Uren IIRC? It used the 3 litre Ford V6. Yes Kenlowe's and Spal's were not up to much back then, unsure if they are still about and if so, if they have been improved? Surprised it was only 40 years ago? I was 18 at the time, I had given up with 1700 crossflows/Weber, and 2000 V4's, a short stab at the V6 Capri, then onto the V8's including a Camaro so a fair experience.

The fan I am using which thus far has performed flawlessly is from the Lincoln MK VIII town car, you need the early model as the later versions were single speed controlled by a variable rate output. By the time the shroud is trimmed it is a perfect fit on the 80 rad top to bottom, and covers around 75% of the radiator.

Google and you will find this was the 'in' fan to have, it has been pressed into service on pretty much every muscle car you can think of, there are some variations so do a little studying to make sure you have the right one, IIRC it is also seen in the V8 Cougar as well?

This fan easily cools the HDJ 80 at idle, even in 40+ C heat. If the AC (mine is wired for the second speed) is on then you will find the temps are pulled down enough to virtually close the thermostat in the engine, the temperature gauge drops to the same position seen when on overrun downhill, also the AC cut out has never been tripped such is the fans efficiency.

regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Dave, great information, thanks. I guess the chances of finding a fan in Europe are about zero so next task is finding some way to import one at a reasonable postage cost! Does the fan come with a built in resistor for the slow speed?

IIRC I was coveting the Savage in the late 60s - so close to 50 years ago for me! By the 80s I was driving a 2.8 Capri with LSD - great fun, sideways, always!

On the AC, is there a high pressure switch already wired into the OEM system that can be tapped for the fan control? If so, where is it?

 

[kevsta]

Hi John. I would love one of those resistor sets please?

Incidentally I have also done the water temperature mod and have a couple of spare resistor sets here in London if anyone out there wants to do the same.
Cheers,
John

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Hi Kev,
No problem. PM me with your address and I'll put them in the post.
John

 

[kevsta]

PMed. Also John, you deleted the rad trans cooler? I've been pondering whether to do that, or run it through both, as I have read in the past that people recommend routing through the big cooler, then the rad loop, because on colder mornings the rad will help heat the trans oil and bring it up to temperature faster?

my rad is a new (2yrs old) uprated aluminium one, and seemed of reasonable quality, nicely welded etc, so should probably be ok wrt to internal failure for a few years yet, but it was obviously made in China, so who knows lol.

If I were to delete that from the trans cooling system, I suppose I could use the rad loop for something else clever too, heating my shower water in or something

Dave, what do you think? loop through both coolers, or just use the big one now?

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

PMed. Also John, you deleted the rad trans cooler? I've been pondering whether to do that, or run it through both, as I have read in the past that people recommend routing through the big cooler, then the rad loop, because on colder mornings the rad will help heat the trans oil and bring it up to temperature faster?

my rad is a new (2yrs old) uprated aluminium one, and seemed of reasonable quality, nicely welded etc, so should probably be ok wrt to internal failure for a few years yet, but it was obviously made in China, so who knows lol.

If I were to delete that from the trans cooling system, I suppose I could use the rad loop for something else clever too, heating my shower water in or something

Dave, what do you think? loop through both coolers, or just use the big one now?

I also have a Chinese radiator, from Roughtrax, and it seems to be well made but an autobox doesn't need a lot of water in it to run up a very large bill. Not worth the risk in my book. So far the two oil coolers have kept the temperature down to 90 degrees or so; their test is coming up in the sands of Morocco! And next year's trip maybe the test for an electric radiator fan in the sands. When i took the original almost finless 240k mile rad off it weighed a ton and was full of fine rusty particles. Next job before Morocco is a full reverse flush - please offer up a small prayer for the heater matrix! I don't think heating your shower water will work; unless I really make the engine work hard the bottom of the radiator is cold on mine. I decided to run the power steering fluid through the radiator as it is a smaller risk and I've known it get pretty hot in sand. So far so good.

 

[kevsta]

I also have a Chinese radiator, from Roughtrax, and it seems to be well made but an autobox doesn't need a lot of water in it to run up a very large bill. Not worth the risk in my book. So far the two oil coolers have kept the temperature down to 90 degrees or so; their test is coming up in the sands of Morocco! And next year's trip maybe the test for an electric radiator fan in the sands. When i took the original almost finless 240k mile rad off it weighed a ton and was full of fine rusty particles. Next job before Morocco is a full reverse flush - please offer up a small prayer for the heater matrix! I don't think heating your shower water will work; unless I really make the engine work hard the bottom of the radiator is cold on mine. I decided to run the power steering fluid through the radiator as it is a smaller risk and I've known it get pretty hot in sand. So far so good.

good points (shower) and ideas all round. they dont have a steering cooler on them stock do they?

 

[Dave 2000]

Dave, great information, thanks. I guess the chances of finding a fan in Europe are about zero so next task is finding some way to import one at a reasonable postage cost! Does the fan come with a built in resistor for the slow speed?

IIRC I was coveting the Savage in the late 60s - so close to 50 years ago for me! By the 80s I was driving a 2.8 Capri with LSD - great fun, sideways, always!

On the AC, is there a high pressure switch already wired into the OEM system that can be tapped for the fan control? If so, where is it?

Get your fan from the USA, check out Rockauto. If you get the right fan the motor has a built in resistor or is specifically wound to run slower. Be careful how you wire though, some need to have the power removed from the slow speed before connecting the higher speed or the windings heat up.

Never a lover of the Cologne engine although my Granada 2.8i X went pretty good, always a problem with the condensation in the rocker covers turning everything to sludge.

The AC has a 'trinary' switch, there are four connectors and two are unused, you can get the pig tails from Toyota and it all fits nice and easy. The switch on mine was moved to make space for larger batteries but IIRC it is in the pipework on the left hand inner wing?

I cannot claim to be the discoverer of this switch, there was a guy way back on this forum who found it so kudos go his way.

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

PMed. Also John, you deleted the rad trans cooler? I've been pondering whether to do that, or run it through both, as I have read in the past that people recommend routing through the big cooler, then the rad loop, because on colder mornings the rad will help heat the trans oil and bring it up to temperature faster?

my rad is a new (2yrs old) uprated aluminium one, and seemed of reasonable quality, nicely welded etc, so should probably be ok wrt to internal failure for a few years yet, but it was obviously made in China, so who knows lol.

If I were to delete that from the trans cooling system, I suppose I could use the rad loop for something else clever too, heating my shower water in or something

Dave, what do you think? loop through both coolers, or just use the big one now?

The risk is very real if the thru rad version is used and it fails. The problem is too cool fluid is as bad as too hot, so I pass the oil through the external cooler first, this takes the majority of the heat out BEFORE it is added to the stock radiator, this helps take the load off the coolant before it enter the engine. Having said that I also like the idea of the fluid leaving the stock radiator at the correct temperature i.e. warmer if need be for colder climates.

If you are not moving out of the Canaria's then just stick with the external cooler Kev, if going North in the winter put a partial blind on the cooler until you return.

I fitted an automatic radiator to my manual with a view to using the auto cooler for my shower heater, as per John's post it does not work. Mine is used to cool the steering fluid as per John's, it is on the low pressure return line, it also moves the pipes up from the front cross member where they loop back and forth (this is the cooler) and are a little vulnerable.

regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

L

The risk is very real if the thru rad version is used and it fails. The problem is too cool fluid is as bad as too hot, so I pass the oil through the external cooler first, this takes the majority of the heat out BEFORE it is added to the stock radiator, this helps take the load off the coolant before it enter the engine. Having said that I also like the idea of the fluid leaving the stock radiator at the correct temperature i.e. warmer if need be for colder climates.

If you are not moving out of the Canaria's then just stick with the external cooler Kev, if going North in the winter put a partial blind on the cooler until you return.

I fitted an automatic radiator to my manual with a view to using the auto cooler for my shower heater, as per John's post it does not work. Mine is used to cool the steering fluid as per John's, it is on the low pressure return line, it also moves the pipes up from the front cross member where they loop back and forth (this is the cooler) and are a little vulnerable.

regards

Dave

Hi,
I'm not convinced that using the rad to warm the ATF in cold weather will actually work for the same reason that heating the shower water doesn't work - no heat, especially in cold weather! I bought my two oil coolers from Merlin and splashed out on their thermostat and temperature sender housing as well. The thermostat bypasses the oil coolers completely up to 80C and the ATF warms up pretty quickly and keeps its temperature at 80-90 even when locked up on the motorway in mid winter.
J

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Dave, interesting that your 80 had looped pipes to cool the steering ATF, mine didn't, it just had 2 direct steel pipes, rusted through and leaking and now replaced with flexible hose.
J

 

[Dave 2000]

L

Hi,
I'm not convinced that using the rad to warm the ATF in cold weather will actually work for the same reason that heating the shower water doesn't work - no heat, especially in cold weather! I bought my two oil coolers from Merlin and splashed out on their thermostat and temperature sender housing as well. The thermostat bypasses the oil coolers completely up to 80C and the ATF warms up pretty quickly and keeps its temperature at 80-90 even when locked up on the motorway in mid winter.
J

The difference between the shower and the gearbox is that the shower would be bringing in cold water constantly, the gearbox on the other hand is circulating, the external cooler will pull off some heat but the with the gearbox workload there will still be some flow of heat. The thermostat on the oil cooler is a good idea, years ago 'Mocal' did something similar for engine oil.

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Re the OE cooler for the steering. Many manufacturers use the same system, putting the steel pipes up and down across the front of the cross member before the fluid re-enters the reservoir, this adds in around a metre of pipe exposed to the air. These rust through on the 80 and I have seen many cut down and re-joined so there is just a single length of steel left.

regards

Dave

 

[JOHN OF LONDON]

Mmmm. I am pretty sure the short return pipe i took off had machine made fat bits (I'm sure there is a proper name for these) at each end but I could be wrong. The coolers and accessories I got are intended for engine cooling and are Mocal branded. I have plumbed them in parallel to reduce flow resistance having failed to come to any conclusion as to whether series or parallel would provide better cooling.

 

[Dave 2000]

The 'fat bits' (great technical term John), are swage, crimp or compression joints. The return is not under mega pressure and is connected to the reservoir (on mine) with a simple jubilee clip, I simply cut the pipe and fed it to a 90 degree joint in the rad cooler, then cut the pipe that continued up to the reservoir and put that on the other rad connection. Been there about three years now with no issues. Last week I did change the steering fluid prior to the Granada trip just completed, it soooo easy to undo the pipe and empty into a bowl.

It's worth noting the auto gearbox pipes on may cars where they join are simple flexible pipes with jubilee clips, the trans cooler pipes do not have a lot of pressure in them.

Perhaps you cut the pipe that leads from the pump to the steering box? TBH I doubt it as that pressure is quite high.

regards

Dave