Mobil 1 10w-30 Full Synthetic Mistery (1 Viewer)

[EvoE2]

This is the story:

I check the oil level in the morning before leaving my house and it was good. We went from Miami to Wildwood and returned the same day (500mi drive total) to visit a friend and the Oil Light began to come and go about 50 miles before getting to Wildwood until it stayed on . We got there and let the engine cool down for an hour or so.

We check the Oil Level before leaving and there was no sign of oil in the dipstick. I bought 5 qts of the same Mobil 1 10W-30 and poured 3 qts and the oil just appeared in the tip of the dipstick. We though it was good to go since the engine wasn't completely cold and the oil "wasn't all the way down into the pan". Some miles after, the light came on again... It took us more than 6 qts of oil to get to Miami (I had to buy 2 more)

I just rebuilt the head and have a new Short Block from Toyota (Didn't rebuilt my old block). I had little more that 1200 miles since the new short block, rebuilt head and this oil when we started the trip without issues (Always in the city). I have the OEM Electric Blower/Fan connected to OEM Specs

We stopped many time to check for an oil leak but nothing. Everything was dry underneath. The spark plugs look good. No blue smog coming out of the exhaust. The oil pressure and water temperature were always stable

I went with that oil since the OEM Oil Cap says "5W-30" thinking that the "30" would be enough and because the weather is not too hot yet

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

 

[scottryana]

You have to have a massive leak under the truck, or into the cooling system. That much oil in the exhaust would make one hell of a smoke screen. If there are no major external leaks it could be oil mixing with coolant in the oil cooler?

 

[jjdeneen918]

How many quarts did you initially put in?

When I first read it, I thought I read 5. Or was that extra that you brought? Who drives around with 5 EXTRA quarts, on a fresh engine?

 

[Landseer]

I had a similar oil leak: My 80 normally didn't burn lose any noticeable oil between changes then suddenly started losing a quart every ~40 miles with absolutely no visible leak or smoke. Turned out the valve cover gasket was leaking on the exhaust side towards the back of the block. New gasket fixed the problem. I'm still mystified as to how it could lose that much oil with no smoke or readily visible leak.

Did you reuse the valve cover gasket when you rebuilt the engine?

 

[LINUS]

Bummer.

Is this the same motor you had an issue with your HG seating & all that?

If so - and you aren’t seeing grey smoke exhaust & big puffs on startup, then the oil has to be either jumping out of the motor via a seal leak, or migrating into the cooling sysyem, although the normal water/oil HG pressures mean you lose coolant into the cylinders & out the tailpipe.

Since the oil seems to be clean (no talk of foamy emulsion) - hows the coolant betwen popping the radiator cap or looking for a floating oil film in the overflow bottle?

How were your temps?

At the rate you seem to be burning oil, assuming it’s going out via the rings of a non-perfect shortblock, or past the stem seals of a flawed head - you really should be seeing it in the exhaust.

Since it’s dead cheap - how about a new PCV valve? I’ve seen the strangest things fixed with one.

Also, it’s not my experience but when my power steering pump failed I was losing the PS fluid (ATF per Toyota) INTO the oil, not the other way around.
-But again, if you are seeing a flooded ring of fluid on your PS resivoir that’s not pink like ATF, that could be a possible escape path. Slim, but possible.

 

[EvoE2]

You have to have a massive leak under the truck, or into the cooling system. That much oil in the exhaust would make one hell of a smoke screen. If there are no major external leaks it could be oil mixing with coolant in the oil cooler?

Could be, but the coolant and oil both look good. The oil cooler and gaskets are all brand new

How many quarts did you initially put in?

When I first read it, I thought I read 5. Or was that extra that you brought? Who drives around with 5 EXTRA quarts, on a fresh engine?

I had to buy the extra Qts of oil, I didn't have them with me. The oil level was good before starting the engine in the morning.

I had a similar oil leak: My 80 normally didn't burn lose any noticeable oil between changes then suddenly started losing a quart every ~40 miles with absolutely no visible leak or smoke. Turned out the valve cover gasket was leaking on the exhaust side towards the back of the block. New gasket fixed the problem. I'm still mystified as to how it could lose that much oil with no smoke or readily visible leak.

Did you reuse the valve cover gasket when you rebuilt the engine?

I was thinking of that. The Valve Cover Gasket is OEM and New. Maybe it moved when we placed the Cover and is not sealing properly

Bummer.

Is this the same motor you had an issue with your HG seating & all that?

If so - and you aren’t seeing grey smoke exhaust & big puffs on startup, then the oil has to be either jumping out of the motor via a seal leak, or migrating into the cooling sysyem, although the normal water/oil HG pressures mean you lose coolant into the cylinders & out the tailpipe.

Since the oil seems to be clean (no talk of foamy emulsion) - hows the coolant betwen popping the radiator cap or looking for a floating oil film in the overflow bottle?

How were your temps?

At the rate you seem to be burning oil, assuming it’s going out via the rings of a non-perfect shortblock, or past the stem seals of a flawed head - you really should be seeing it in the exhaust.

Since it’s dead cheap - how about a new PCV valve? I’ve seen the strangest things fixed with one.

Also, it’s not my experience but when my power steering pump failed I was losing the PS fluid (ATF per Toyota) INTO the oil, not the other way around.
-But again, if you are seeing a flooded ring of fluid on your PS resivoir that’s not pink like ATF, that could be a possible escape path. Slim, but possible.

Yes, is the same engine. That time the Head Gasket (OEM) had a little crack. We replaced it for a new OEM and now is good with no CEL or "misfiring" message on the OBD-II reader like when I had the problem with the headgasket and the engine feels strong

The engine temperature is good. The gauge didn't moved at all

No smoke from the exhaust

The PCV valve is new also OEM

There is no oil film in the overflow tank and it was on the Full level line and still is. That much oil should be very noticeable in the cooling system

The PS fluid has good color (The fluid is new because I replaced the PS Cooler for a new OEM)

The oil level was perfect during the first 1200 miles but never in a highway for this long. I drive pretty much the same miles in city and highways every day and I avoid rush hours

I changed the oil yesterday and there was no coolant in it

 

[Red Merle]

So you went through 5 quarts of oil in how many miles? I don't know how far Wildwood is from Miami, but that is a ton of oil, especially if you already drove 1200 miles on it without issue. Where else could it go? Is there a way it could have gone into the tranny somehow or just leaked out somewhere?

 

[LINUS]

So are you positive you started with really a ~8qt full motor, prior to the trip?

Is there ANY spotting coming from under the motor anywhere?

-If it was me, I’d rewind back to swapping in a new oil filter (small case), and use dino oil instead of M1 for 2 reasons:
Dino is cheaper & you’re losing alot of oil somewhere.
Dino is going to get your motor bedded in & you ought to be following a motor break-in program since you essentially have a new motor.

When driving, how is the power & felt torque?
How does the exhaust look when sitting idling or having a helper rev it some?
Any hesitation/stumble issues at all?
Also, did you look around the distributor on the off-chance that has a leak?

I’d say at the rate this thing ate a pail of oil (assuming was measured 100%) - that this thing should be either throwing codes or spitting oil like a old bulldozer wherever you park it for 10mins.

 

[Red Merle]

I’d say at the rate this thing ate a pail of oil (assuming was measured 100%) - that this thing should be either throwing codes or spitting oil like a old bulldozer wherever you park it for 10mins.

All great points, as usual, but this is the kicker.

 

[BILT4ME]

And, if you have a fresh engine with new rings, you should NOT be using synthetic oil to break it in. It does not allow enough friction to get the rings to seat. It will burn massive amounts of oil, like you may be seeing.

Remember, if the cat's are working properly, they will eliminate MOST of the oil smoke, especially at highway speeds when everything is good and hot.

Otherwise, it should be dripping SOMEWHERE, if not out the tailpipe......

 

[scottryana]

No cat in the world will eliminate the smoke from 4qts of oil burned in 50 miles.

And, if you have a fresh engine with new rings, you should NOT be using synthetic oil to break it in. It does not allow enough friction to get the rings to seat. It will burn massive amounts of oil, like you may be seeing.

Remember, if the cat's are working properly, they will eliminate MOST of the oil smoke, especially at highway speeds when everything is good and hot.

Otherwise, it should be dripping SOMEWHERE, if not out the tailpipe......

 

[Azca]

Since you rebuilt it, did you use two gaskets on the oil cooler? My kit, from Toyota, only came with one. See below circled in blue.

 

[BILT4ME]

Not cat in the world will eliminate the smoke from 4qts of oil burned in 50 miles.

I question the accuracy of the story since "The oil just started to touch the tip of the stick after it had been sitting for an hour and they added 3 quarts."

1) I don't believe it started out with 8 quarts in it.
2) The math doesn't add up. 5 quarts were purchased. Only 3 quarts were added. Then had to buy two more. 6 quarts were used. How many quarts are left -new and -in the engine?
3) Yes, the oil is disappearing. 6 quarts in 250 miles (not 50), and yes, there will be oil smoke from the cats, but it is REALLY hard to see when driving down the highway and watching in the mirror if there is smoke. BTDT. The "haze gray" you see out the rearview mirror makes it hard to see, as well as because it is below the window line and if there is a rear deflector, it will push the air DOWN and force the smoke to the ground where it won;t be seen as well while driving.

Who adds just enough to touch the stick and think that's good enough? Especially on a NEW engine?!?!?!?! It's been sitting for an HOUR! It only takes 3 minutes for the oil to drain back to be 98% accurate.

Now the old Studebakers were known that if you run the V8's at 4000+ RPM for extended periods of time, they will retain the oil in the valve covers and flood the valves until it starts burning MASSIVE amounts of oil through the valve guides. The drain holes were not large enough in the early models to allow the oil to drain back faster than it was being pumped up top.

So, maybe he's filling the valve cover because it's not draining back? Head gasket on wrong to stop the drain holes from the head?

 

[Azca]

Did you get all the gaskets on the oil cooler during assembly? I was missing one of the internal seals from my Toyota kit and had to buy another one to complete the install.

Do a good once around on the engine and under the rig, the oil has to be escaping somehow. If there are no visible leaks, the engine is eating it or it is going into the cooling system. Since this is a new engine, the leak ought to be pretty easy to find if external.

 

[Azca]

Sorry, didn't accept the photo last time.

 

[Red Merle]

I question the accuracy of the story since "The oil just started to touch the tip of the stick after it had been sitting for an hour and they added 3 quarts."

1) I don't believe it started out with 8 quarts in it.
2) The math doesn't add up. 5 quarts were purchased. Only 3 quarts were added. Then had to buy two more. 6 quarts were used. How many quarts are left -new and -in the engine?
3) Yes, the oil is disappearing. 6 quarts in 250 miles (not 50), and yes, there will be oil smoke from the cats, but it is REALLY hard to see when driving down the highway and watching in the mirror if there is smoke. BTDT. The "haze gray" you see out the rearview mirror makes it hard to see, as well as because it is below the window line and if there is a rear deflector, it will push the air DOWN and force the smoke to the ground where it won;t be seen as well while driving.

Who adds just enough to touch the stick and think that's good enough? Especially on a NEW engine?!?!?!?! It's been sitting for an HOUR! It only takes 3 minutes for the oil to drain back to be 98% accurate.

Now the old Studebakers were known that if you run the V8's at 4000+ RPM for extended periods of time, they will retain the oil in the valve covers and flood the valves until it starts burning MASSIVE amounts of oil through the valve guides. The drain holes were not large enough in the early models to allow the oil to drain back faster than it was being pumped up top.

So, maybe he's filling the valve cover because it's not draining back? Head gasket on wrong to stop the drain holes from the head?

You were probably good at those equations about trains leaving from Schenectady and crossing paths with another object and how fast and far they traveled, but when I read those problems, I just had a lot more questions.

So how many confirmed quarts in how far?

Have you checked the cats?

It does not take 3 hours to drain the oil back into the pan in an 80. I accidentally dumped a ninth quart in though last week and I can report that the dip stick just barely reads over the full mark. I drained a quart out for good measure, but I don't think it would have mattered. I run dino oil. This engine was designed with dino oil in mind and it runs better on no corn gas.

 

[EvoE2]

I just left it parked for more than 10 minutes at idle speed and before that is was inside my garage for more than 2 hours and nothing. Not a single drop of oil

I always check the oil level because of the damaged head gasket we first installed. Coolant was going into the 5th cylinder and the oil had signs of coolant so we replaced that oil when we did the head gasket. There was even humidity in the oil cap before replacing that damaged head gasket. That's why I still check the oil cap and dipstick. So yes, the engine had it's 8 qts prior to the trip

The tailpipe is oil free and the complete exhaust system is brand new (OEM)

There is no sign of oil under the body

I installed the two oil cooler gaskets (I did it my self when the oil cooler arrived). They did came in the head gasket kit but I wasn't sure when I order it so I bought two more just in case

If it was a external leak, it should be oil all over the transmission/transfer case/axle and if it was going into the cooling system it shouldn't be too difficult to see it in the overflow bottle

Regarding the 5 qts I bought, I added 3 of the 5, some miles after, 2 more then I bought 2 but added just one. The total trip was 500 miles

The thing is, why in more than 2 months and 1200 miles the oil level was always good and after 200 miles of highway this happened?

 

[Red Merle]

I just left it parked for more than 10 minutes at idle speed and before that is was inside my garage for more than 2 hours and nothing. Not a single drop of oil

I always check the oil level because of the damaged head gasket we first installed. Coolant was going into the 5th cylinder and the oil had signs of coolant so we replaced that oil when we did the head gasket. There was even humidity in the oil cap before replacing that damaged head gasket. That's why I still check the oil cap and dipstick. So yes, the engine had it's 8 qts prior to the trip

The tailpipe is oil free and the complete exhaust system is brand new (OEM)

There is no sign of oil under the body

I installed the two oil cooler gaskets (I did it my self when the oil cooler arrived). They did came in the head gasket kit but I wasn't sure when I order it so I bought two more just in case

If it was a external leak, it should be oil all over the transmission/transfer case/axle and if it was going into the cooling system it shouldn't be too difficult to see it in the overflow bottle

Regarding the 5 qts I bought, I added 3 of the 5, some miles after, 2 more then I bought 2 but added just one. The total trip was 500 miles

The thing is, why in more than 2 months and 1200 miles the oil level was always good and after 200 miles of highway this happened?

I'll admit to being at a loss here. About the only thing I can think of is it that decided to barf out a bunch of oil for some reason, it wasn't full to begin with or the synth was thin enough to run right out the tailpipe.

All you can do is monitor and continue to try to replicate the circumstance.

 

[EvoE2]

I changed the oil for Motul 10W-40 Synthetic and keep monitoring

 

[LINUS]

You’re still using synth when it is proven that it will be a solid motor if bedded in on dino oil.

It’s a known fact the best BMW motors are ones drained of synth, bedded in on dino, then swap to synth again anywhere after 15K.
They admitted themselves when the S54 motor had issues it was due to synth oil & thin viscosity synth in the M5 (don’t remember that motor code offhand).

I was with @BILT4ME that the math & measure was bad, but if you say otherwise, you’re the boots on the ground.

I’d quit any & all synth oil until you figure out where it’s going, then have the engine break-in debate if you’re really doing good on synth before bedding in.