- Thread starter
- #41
Did some steam cleaning of the engine and trans... got the trans mounted on a stand ready for dismantling.
Mitsubishi 4D34-2AT3B diesel swap into 96 FZJ80 (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter SuperHatch
- Start date
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- Thread starter
- #42
Here is the EPA sticker... guess the engine is a 3AT3B, even though all of Mitsu's documentation sats 2AT3B for the 99 model year.
That engine and tranny combo are bullet proof
- Thread starter
- #44
Thanks for the EPA Tag shot. It shows the engines BSFC at rated power (145hp) is 275 g/kwh.
Honestly this is a lot higher than I expected. You might have an engine that has the injection timing retarded for emissions reasons. The 3 degrees BTDC timing compares to 8 degrees BTDC for an Isuzu 4BD2T and 13 deg BTDC for an Isuzu 4BD1T.
Is this engine IDI?
Honestly this is a lot higher than I expected. You might have an engine that has the injection timing retarded for emissions reasons. The 3 degrees BTDC timing compares to 8 degrees BTDC for an Isuzu 4BD2T and 13 deg BTDC for an Isuzu 4BD1T.
Is this engine IDI?
Exact same EPA tag as mine.
The Fuso 4D3 is direct injected and heavily EPA regulated. IIRC Nox limits are prescribed here. This is also the exact same engine as the Euro 3 Canter, which is a fairly recently offered driveline.
The pump is a Zexel TICS. Although you set the base timing in a conventional way, the computer will actually alter the injection timing and duration of injection through the prestroke actuator. At idle, it utilizes a very steep portion of the injection cam profile, for a rapid high pressure injection. At speed, the portion of the cam having a longer, gradual ramp is used, so the injection is spread out over a longer period, reducing Nox, and the injection timing is advanced. A possible side effect may be increased fuel consumption due to a longer burn time, but I also think that the engine is timed retarded for emissions.
When I first got mine going, it smoked blue and generally acted like the timing was badly retarded. The manual has a very imprecise method that is used to check timing based looking down into the pump after removing one of the sensors. It is not accurate and I am trying to find a better method, but there is a huge amount of adjustability in the pump drive, so advancing is easy, but I suspect the timing is done through pump set-up and verifying with accuracy might be difficult without Bosch test stuff.
I advanced mine a few degrees and it now runs fine, but I think it might still be retarded as it seems a tad lazy.
The computer gets its engine position based on two sensors (redundancy) in the pump. I was surprised to find out that there is no cam, crank, flywheel or other sensor that monitors actual crankshaft position, so it would be easy to bump the timing and not have any side effect in the engine control department. I am just concerned about what advance the prestroke mechanism generates. I am pretty sure it does not advance timing at all at idle, as with the system disconnected the engine runs and sounds the same.
The Fuso 4D3 is direct injected and heavily EPA regulated. IIRC Nox limits are prescribed here. This is also the exact same engine as the Euro 3 Canter, which is a fairly recently offered driveline.
The pump is a Zexel TICS. Although you set the base timing in a conventional way, the computer will actually alter the injection timing and duration of injection through the prestroke actuator. At idle, it utilizes a very steep portion of the injection cam profile, for a rapid high pressure injection. At speed, the portion of the cam having a longer, gradual ramp is used, so the injection is spread out over a longer period, reducing Nox, and the injection timing is advanced. A possible side effect may be increased fuel consumption due to a longer burn time, but I also think that the engine is timed retarded for emissions.
When I first got mine going, it smoked blue and generally acted like the timing was badly retarded. The manual has a very imprecise method that is used to check timing based looking down into the pump after removing one of the sensors. It is not accurate and I am trying to find a better method, but there is a huge amount of adjustability in the pump drive, so advancing is easy, but I suspect the timing is done through pump set-up and verifying with accuracy might be difficult without Bosch test stuff.
I advanced mine a few degrees and it now runs fine, but I think it might still be retarded as it seems a tad lazy.
The computer gets its engine position based on two sensors (redundancy) in the pump. I was surprised to find out that there is no cam, crank, flywheel or other sensor that monitors actual crankshaft position, so it would be easy to bump the timing and not have any side effect in the engine control department. I am just concerned about what advance the prestroke mechanism generates. I am pretty sure it does not advance timing at all at idle, as with the system disconnected the engine runs and sounds the same.
It appears that in 1992 that maybe the US must have increased emission requirements? In 1992 The Mitsubishi 4D34-1AT3 went to using the electronic controlled prestroke injection pump, but stayed direct injected.
That same year Isuzu went to IDI (4BD2T) but everything stayed mechanical.
I'm looking forward to seeing what fuel economy stats you guys end up with the 4D34's and see how they compare to the Isuzu.
That same year Isuzu went to IDI (4BD2T) but everything stayed mechanical.
I'm looking forward to seeing what fuel economy stats you guys end up with the 4D34's and see how they compare to the Isuzu.
bloc
SILVER Star
Is that a Galant VR4 in the background?
I always wanted to stuff a 4G63 into a late 80s 4x4 toyota pickup.. that thing would be wicked fun..
I always wanted to stuff a 4G63 into a late 80s 4x4 toyota pickup.. that thing would be wicked fun..
- Thread starter
- #49
Yes it is, customer's car, good eye!! (Not many people know these cars) It's in for coilovers and big brakes... I've done all the work on this car since it was stock, been fun to see it evolve over the years.
Fully built 2.0L, 35R, all supporting mods. Expecting 600+WHP at the next dyno session.
Couple pics from a year or so ago when I did the refresh on the engine bay... not quite as clean anymore but I'll tidy it up a bit before it leaves.
This motor would be wicked in a Pickup!
- Thread starter
- #50
So as I've said many times (getting to be a broken record yet?
) I'm new to the diesel thing... plenty of experience with the Otto cycle though.Advancing the timing would have the same effect as advancing the ignition timing on a petrol car? Better response, more power/torque?
So as I've said many times (getting to be a broken record yet?
Advancing the timing would have the same effect as advancing the ignition timing on a petrol car? Better response, more power/torque?
Pretty much yes. Like petrol engines there's an advance that gives best torque and efficiency at any given rpm, from there drivability, NVH and emissions determine where you actually run it.
Unlike a petrol you can't run into detonation from too far advanced.
More advanced gives:
Crisper feel.
Louder combustion noise.
More black smoke.
Higher peak cylinder pressures.
More NOx.
More retarded gives:
Lazier feel.
Quieter and smoother.
White smoke if you go too far.
Earlier turbo spool.
It's a balancing act. I've run the whole range of timing adjustment on my Isuzu 4BD1T and I'm back at the factory alignment marks as the best compromise for all my driving. I haven't spill-timed my engine so I don't know what this is in degrees BTDC.
My engine is JDM, the US engines generally are a later series with different camshafts but US california Isuzu's have injection timing retarded 4 degrees further for NOx reasons.
- Thread starter
- #52
So the natural next question is, how much power/torque can be expected from 5 degrees of timing advance?
That's a very hard question to answer. I wouldn't expect more than a few %, but you will gain fuel economy from it also.
- Thread starter
- #54
Understood. The whole point of this swap is fuel economy, so if a little timing will gain me some, I'm all for it.
And before someone starts ragging on me for the cost of a swap versus the payback.... I drive between 25-30k miles a year. I am doing all of the work myself, so while my time is worth something, the labor is no cost out of pocket.
I already did the math, this swap will save me between $2600 and $3600 a year if it nets 20-25MPG at todays fuel costs. I plan on owning the truck for many years to come... so it will pay for itself in my case.
If I can recommend something, it would be to leave your timing alone for now. Because I had to swap out the pump and the factory timing pointers are not that accurate, I am certain that mine is not timed ideally. I will mess with advancing the timing a few degrees at a time and see how it performs and yours can be the baseline. It's up to you, but I think this is the best way to go about it, that way we can really compare.
On the fuel mileage issue, you and I are both one the same wavelength. I also drive over 30K kms a year, and I had investigated the cost of a Toyota only swap with a 1HDT and it would have taken 4-5 years to amortize if I did everything myself. I was worried that in 5 years my situation would change and I would end up selling it, having spent months working to convert it for no real financial benefit. Of course the resale value would be higher, but at 30-40K kms a year, the value plummets, not to mention the fact that the truck will probably be rusty in 5 years, so I would probably not get much of a premium for it.
I have not added my receipts up but I'd bet I am in well under 3K for the conversion. That means it starts making me money in 18 months. Plus, the conversion is so easy now that everything is made that when this 80 rusts out, I will just find clean one in the south with no lockers and swap everything over. It's truly a weekend job with no wiring mods and no welding.
Based on what the Aussies tell me about the Fuso Canters, I should see well over 500 000 kms on this engine, plus it has an oil lubed pump (no silly additives), no timing belt, cast iron head (no gasket issues), etc. It's truly a medium duty truck engine.
I think if I was to do it again, I would try and simply put the 450-43LE valvebody and torque converter on the stock trans and see if it works. I may still try this if I can get my hands on a complete spare A442F as I have a spare 450-43LE trans. The higher overdrive is not that beneficial, really, and I think that the computer might work out OK even with the differing ratios. It's a long shot, and you'd be a guinea pig, but it would greatly reduce the complexity. And, in order to gain some valve cover to firewall clearance, you could oval out the holes in the trans crossmember and slide the whole thing forward, there is enough play in the driveshafts I think.
On the fuel mileage issue, you and I are both one the same wavelength. I also drive over 30K kms a year, and I had investigated the cost of a Toyota only swap with a 1HDT and it would have taken 4-5 years to amortize if I did everything myself. I was worried that in 5 years my situation would change and I would end up selling it, having spent months working to convert it for no real financial benefit. Of course the resale value would be higher, but at 30-40K kms a year, the value plummets, not to mention the fact that the truck will probably be rusty in 5 years, so I would probably not get much of a premium for it.
I have not added my receipts up but I'd bet I am in well under 3K for the conversion. That means it starts making me money in 18 months. Plus, the conversion is so easy now that everything is made that when this 80 rusts out, I will just find clean one in the south with no lockers and swap everything over. It's truly a weekend job with no wiring mods and no welding.
Based on what the Aussies tell me about the Fuso Canters, I should see well over 500 000 kms on this engine, plus it has an oil lubed pump (no silly additives), no timing belt, cast iron head (no gasket issues), etc. It's truly a medium duty truck engine.
I think if I was to do it again, I would try and simply put the 450-43LE valvebody and torque converter on the stock trans and see if it works. I may still try this if I can get my hands on a complete spare A442F as I have a spare 450-43LE trans. The higher overdrive is not that beneficial, really, and I think that the computer might work out OK even with the differing ratios. It's a long shot, and you'd be a guinea pig, but it would greatly reduce the complexity. And, in order to gain some valve cover to firewall clearance, you could oval out the holes in the trans crossmember and slide the whole thing forward, there is enough play in the driveshafts I think.
crushers
post ho
in the end, it is your time, your money and your enjoyment ... whether you make your investment back or not is irrelevant. most guys do the swap cause they want to and use the fuel mileage figures to get the permission form the boss.
<of course the boss already knows it is BS but they love yah and give you the go ahead because of the effort of the reason>
i am enjoying the thread, continue.
<of course the boss already knows it is BS but they love yah and give you the go ahead because of the effort of the reason>
i am enjoying the thread, continue.
- Thread starter
- #57
JL, No intention of touching anything off the bat. I want a good couple tanks as a baseline before I start messing with anything.
That's funny... I have a set of 82k miles locker axles that I will be rebuilding and installing right around the same time as the swap. My plan is the same as yours, when this rig rusts out, find a nice rust-free southern truck.
This was the big draw for me... these engines (and transmissions for that matter) last so long in trucks that weight twice as much and are generally abused. I can't imagine it won't easily give me 200k miles more life at a minimum.
I would love to be the guinea pig, but my truck has an A343F, my A442F is coming from a junkyard. Since I don't know how healthy it is (or isn't) I don't want to risk it since my truck is my daily and I will be borrowing my father's spare vehicle while I'm doing the conversion. If the situation were different, I'd surely try it. Besides, overhauling the trans gives me the opportunity to know exactly what condition my trans is in when I put it in the rig.
Speaking of which, my A442F got delivered yesterday. I will be tearing it down this Friday, and if time permits I'll start digging into the 450-43LE as well.
I agree... but while I think the Diesel conversion is cool, I wouldn't even be doing it if the mileage gains weren't there. My wife loves me and lets me do whatever I want within reason... she's a good
On a completely different note...
https://www.wittrans.com/showfilter.aspx?Category=1287&Section=174
Brand new A442F Extension Housing for $79
https://www.wittrans.com/showfilter.aspx?Category=1287&Section=118
Brand new A442F Output Shaft for $53
Plus they sell all the overhaul kits and anything else you may need. Had I found this site before I bought a complete trans, I may have gone this route instead. But a complete trans for $400 shipped also got me the Transfer Case as well as all the associated linkage for the TC shifter that is different on my truck.
Just another option for people out there that might not want their truck down while they are rebuilding the transmission.
- Thread starter
- #58
For what it's worth... after scouring toyodiy.com; the following parts are the only differences in the A343F and A442F shift linkages:
90170-A0001 - NUT, HEXAGON
94512-00800 - WASHER, SPRING
94612-10800 - WASHER, PLATE
33723-22010 - SWIVEL, CONNECTING R
94613-10800 - WASHER,PLATE
90389-08005 - BUSHING, NO.1
90480-17177 - GROMMET
90468-14017 - CLIP
35569-60030 - ROD, TRANSMISSION CO
90480-17177 - GROMMET
90389-08005 - BUSHING, NO.1
The total from a local dealer runs about $48 bucks.
Also, since an extra gasket is needed between the spacer and extension housing, the Toyota part number is 35182-60010, and it's about $10 bucks. Cheaper than buying a second AW450-43LE gasket kit.
90170-A0001 - NUT, HEXAGON
94512-00800 - WASHER, SPRING
94612-10800 - WASHER, PLATE
33723-22010 - SWIVEL, CONNECTING R
94613-10800 - WASHER,PLATE
90389-08005 - BUSHING, NO.1
90480-17177 - GROMMET
90468-14017 - CLIP
35569-60030 - ROD, TRANSMISSION CO
90480-17177 - GROMMET
90389-08005 - BUSHING, NO.1
The total from a local dealer runs about $48 bucks.
Also, since an extra gasket is needed between the spacer and extension housing, the Toyota part number is 35182-60010, and it's about $10 bucks. Cheaper than buying a second AW450-43LE gasket kit.
I forgot you had the later trans, but this is great, as we'll know how easy it is to swap the setup into a later truck, which I will probably have to do later on.
The source for an extension housing and output shaft is great, especially for the later trucks, as it saves you from buying a spare. However, I don't see a shaft listed for an A442F, only A440, same as the output housing, but they list two dimensions. can you measure yours and we will see which is correct? If I can get the parts cheap I will build up a spare 450-43LE and swap it in, to correct my front pump leak.
This just keeps getting better and better!
The source for an extension housing and output shaft is great, especially for the later trucks, as it saves you from buying a spare. However, I don't see a shaft listed for an A442F, only A440, same as the output housing, but they list two dimensions. can you measure yours and we will see which is correct? If I can get the parts cheap I will build up a spare 450-43LE and swap it in, to correct my front pump leak.
This just keeps getting better and better!
- Thread starter
- #60
I am planning on pulling my A442F apart this Friday. I will take the dimensions then.
I noticed that it said A440F as well, but I figured (apparently incorrectly) that one was for the FJ62 A440F and the other was for the FJ80 A440F, and that the FJ80 A440F and FZJ80 A442F had the same output shafts and extension housings. According to toyodiy.com, they don't...
Extension Housings:
FJ62 - 35015-60011
FJ80 - 35015-60021
FZJ80 - 35015-60051
Output Shafts:
FJ62 - 35073-60010
FJ80 - 35073-60020
FZJ80 - 35073-60040
Ah well... need to do some more digging on exactly what the differences are, the 80 stuff might be interchangeable.
