Micro-Tube Parallel Flow Condenser

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All of my cars are old school so I'm only comparing to the wife's 2001 RX300. very similar vintage and components, still has a lot of glass and the insulation isn't much better. Her vents will maintain 40-45 around town, at idle, on the freeway, etc. She only has electric fans. Thankfully, that's about the newest car I'll drive. I'd be pulling my hair out trying to keep up with a new Ram. :)

I understand...and really hope that your new condenser will result in markedly better cooling for you. Your vehicle will be a good test vehicle since you've already taken strides to be sure your components are in good shape.

Please make sure whoever charges the system with refrigerant will pull a good 'deep' vacuum on it (not a 1 hour quickie). Then charge the first pound of refrigerant as a liquid (into vacuum) though the high side. Finish up as a gas into low side (suction)...paying close attention to the pressure window (acceptable pressures) and watching vent temps as the prescribed amount (weight) is approached.

There will be a point at which vent temps no longer improve but pressure continues to rise. Often times peak performance is realized with a little higher or lower (weighted amount) than factory specs. I call this 'tuning the charge'. An A/C shop is NOT going to do it. That is why I like for those who are capable.... to do it themselves.

Let us know how yours turns out. All information is GOOD information for others to draw upon.
 
Flint, I really appreciate your posts and the time you've put in to amass the knowledge you have. I'm not expecting my Cruiser to be a rolling meat locker, but the lowest my vent temp get are around 65°F on a 90° day and that's just not acceptable to me. I hope that the above condenser provides the performance I'm looking for.

My plan is to have the system evacuated, then drive home and do the mechanical work myself, then back over to have it filled. Can you suggest any other parts to do while I'm in there?
 
Flint, I really appreciate your posts and the time you've put in to amass the knowledge you have. I'm not expecting my Cruiser to be a rolling meat locker, but the lowest my vent temp get are around 65°F on a 90° day and that's just not acceptable to me. I hope that the above condenser provides the performance I'm looking for.

My plan is to have the system evacuated, then drive home and do the mechanical work myself, then back over to have it filled. Can you suggest any other parts to do while I'm in there?

Yes, those vent temps are unacceptable. There are gains to be had...no doubt. I see that your rig definitely had a serpentine Tube & Fin condenser. So the parallel will be an 'improvement' but this assumes your other components are in good working order. It is SO important to remember that we are dealing with a 'system'.

To answer your question: I would want to be sure your evaporator is clean and not significantly blocked. Most..(if original) are going to have some amount of debris in the bottom of the housing. If not a LOT...then no worry, but I've seen some incredibly 'stuffed' evaporator housings.

The addition of a Aux fan was a good move. Every bit helps at low speeds.

It's just about the basics guys. There are few 'magic bullets' in the Auto A/C world.

We don't want leaks.
We don't want air or moisture in the system.
We don't want excess oil in the system.
We DO want a proper refrigerant charge (amount).
We DO want air flow, air flow and air flow.

Let us know how yours turns out.
 
I received the Denso condenser and its exactly what is on the truck now; black serpentine and it's made in Taiwan.

I'm going to return it to Amazon but I'm not sure how to get the parallel flow version.

I'll be performing all the work including the deep vacuum. Everything will be very clean or new with the right amount of oil and charge. Agreed there's no magic bullet with AC, I just don't think mines been properly tended to for a while.
 
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I put one in mine and works great. You have to watch your charge cause it is a smaller capacity. I dropped about 6 degrees at the duct temps. The real test will be out on the trail on Sunday when it is 110.
Where did you source yours? Do you gave a make and model by chance? The Denso replacement is a serpentine.
 
I received the Denso condenser and its exactly what is on the truck now; black serpentine and it's made in Taiwan.

I'm going to return it to Amazon but I'm not sure how to get the parallel flow version.

Yeah....we need to resolve this so I can edit/recant any inaccuracies in posts.

In the meantime...let me tell you what I found (and not found).

I have NOT found any literature published by Denso that states the

Denso Condenser # 477-0554 *direct replacement for (94-97 Land Cruiser) Toyota part 88460-60160 is in fact 'parallel' flow construction.

I have found numerous ads by sellers of Denso products stating the 477-0554 IS 'parallel flow' and I originally bought mine under that pretense, but never really looked at it closely before installing it.

I see that the 'Spectra' version of a direct replacement condenser clearly states 'serpentine flow'.

Further....I just went and looked at mine and although I can't see what is behind the C-Channel it does not appear there would be room for anything but serpentine construction.

I have put in a request to Denso for definitive information one way or the other...but I now strongly believe the 477-0554 that I have is flat/multi tube and fin (serpentine flow). Not a bad design...but NOT parallel.

As soon as I hear back from Denso...I will post their reply.
 
@JHB Cruising Do you have a source, make, model for the Parallel Flow model you have installed?
 
Yeah....we need to resolve this so I can edit/recant any inaccuracies in posts.

In the meantime...let me tell you what I found (and not found).

I have NOT found any literature published by Denso that states the

Denso Condenser # 477-0554 *direct replacement for (94-97 Land Cruiser) Toyota part 88460-60160 is in fact 'parallel' flow construction.

I have found numerous ads by sellers of Denso products stating the 477-0554 IS 'parallel flow' and I originally bought mine under that pretense, but never really looked at it closely before installing it.

I see that the 'Spectra' version of a direct replacement condenser clearly states 'serpentine flow'.

Further....I just went and looked at mine and although I can't see what is behind the C-Channel it does not appear there would be room for anything but serpentine construction.

I have put in a request to Denso for definitive information one way or the other...but I now strongly believe the 477-0554 that I have is flat/multi tube and fin (serpentine flow). Not a bad design...but NOT parallel.

As soon as I hear back from Denso...I will post their reply.
It's definitely inaccurate on all the car part sites.

Holding the new Denso its very clear in the top and bottom corners, outside the channel, that its definitely flat/multi tube and fin (serpentine flow) like my boy's Dakota. Serpentine isn't awful, his is quite cold. I just want to upgrade to the PF.

Off topic but the wife's 01 RX300 has a parallel flow that's 29"x17"x5/8". I may look at adapting that one. Her car is stupid cold.
 
Spent some time reading through this for the first time. Way back in post 5, @Dissent posted his ac pressures 25/265 @ 106 ambient.
Im sure he wasn't told what rpm they tested at but, the low side looked a bit high to me and the high side was pretty close.
My 96 with a serpentine condenser at 100 degree ambient I get 20/285 with 43 degree vent temp. This is tested at high fan, 1500 rpm, eng at full temp.
Let me give you a few basics so when you replace things you can look at your pressures and dial things in.

The condenser controls the high side. If the condenser was not moving heat, you will see higher high side. This includes any airflow issues.
Your basic high side formula (R134) is @1500(ish) rpm, 2.54 X ambient for min and 2.4 X ambient +50 max. 100 degree day high side should be 254-290. humidity will move these numbers slightly. I got this formula from an engineer at Dupont some years back.

The txv (expansion valve) controls the low side. The txv monitors the evap outlet. It tries to keep the outlet just over freezing
The normal across the board low side spec on a txv is 10-30 psi. Their normally real happy 20-22 psi (except Mercedes for some reason).

Basic diagnostic. No testing is done at idle. test 1500-1700 rpm, high fan. Run system at this speed until vent temp is lowest point. Write down the numbers. If the system was turning on and off during this time (cycling) write down lowest low/highest high.
Next when running system look at low side pressure and grab suction line (big line running from firewall to compressor). Grab the aluminum not rubber hose. How does it feel?
If I have a 20 psi low, that better feel like 20 degrees or RFC (real friggen cold). If it does the issue isn't the refrigeration system.

Cold suction line, bad vent temp. Heater door out of adjustment or water valve allowing water past.

High, high side pressure (significantly out of spec). Air flow, condenser dirty (airflow), too much oil, too much refrigerant and my favorite, wrong condenser (you had a parallel flow and the auto part store gave you a tube and fin (less heat transfer) because that's what their vendor gave them.

Low, high side pressure. Low refrigerant and or oil.

Low side can be tricky because the TXV wants to compensate the evap. If you have low refrigerant it starts to open (low side pressure goes up) to flood the evap and make it colder. it can also close off to bring temp up (lower pressure). If the system has been low on oil for a long time, the txv can be sticky and not meter correctly. During your testing, you should see the txv fluctuate some until it finds its happy spot.

I'm in favor of running a better condenser. That will bring the temps down during low speeds. The basic thing to remember is what an auto ac is designed for. Move max BTU (heat) from inside to outside.
The system better be able to handle all the heat. Max BTU into evap (high fan) carried in the refrigerant to the front where the condenser dumps it out. if you don't have enough refrigerant, you cant carry max heat, too much raises pressure which raises temp.

Think of it like this. Radiator, can you drive your car on the highway with only 70% of your coolant? Sure, as long as its cool out and you have no hills. The system has enough coolant to transfer the BTU (heat) generated to outside. Now its 105 and 80% humidity, vehicle is almost maxed out on weight and your driving over a hill. More load=more heat and outside temp/humidity is working against you. With the cooling system full you have enough coolant to move the heat but you dont, now car overheats.
If your ac system is low on refrigerant it will never pass the stress test (high fan, 1500 rpm). It will give you good vent temps on lower fan speeds (think less btu carrying capacity).

Wow I cant believe I typed all this out. Somewhere in there I said I was in favor of running a better condenser. I'd like to see what you come up with in the way of type and dimensions. The only issue will be, the more efficient parallel flow will also be more restrictive to airflow.

Scott
 
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Spent some time reading through this for the first time. Way back in post 5, @Dissent posted his ac pressures 25/265 @ 106 ambient.
Im sure he wasn't told what rpm they tested at but, the low side looked a bit high to me and the high side was pretty close.
My 96 with a serpentine condenser at 100 degree ambient I get 20/285 with 43 degree vent temp. This is tested at high fan, 1500 rpm, eng at full temp.
Let me give you a few basics so when you replace things you can look at your pressures and dial things in.

The condenser controls the high side. If the condenser was not moving heat, you will see higher high side. This includes any airflow issues.
Your basic high side formula (R134) is @1500(ish) rpm, 2.54 X ambient for min and 2.4 X ambient +50 max. 100 degree day high side should be 254-290. humidity will move these numbers slightly. I got this formula from an engineer at Dupont some years back.

The txv (expansion valve) controls the low side. The txv monitors the evap outlet. It tries to keep the outlet just over freezing
The normal across the board low side spec on a txv is 10-30 psi. Their normally real happy 20-22 psi (except Mercedes for some reason).

Basic diagnostic. No testing is done at idle. test 1500-1700 rpm, high fan. Run system at this speed until vent temp is lowest point. Write down the numbers. If the system was turning on and off during this time (cycling) write down lowest low/highest high.
Next when running system look at low side pressure and grab suction line (big line running from firewall to compressor). Grab the aluminum not rubber hose. How does it feel?
If I have a 20 psi low, that better feel like 20 degrees or RFC (real friggen cold). If it does the issue isn't the refrigeration system.

Cold suction line, bad vent temp. Heater door out of adjustment or water valve allowing water past.

High, high side pressure (significantly out of spec). Air flow, condenser dirty (airflow), too much oil, too much refrigerant and my favorite, wrong condenser (you had a parallel flow and the auto part store gave you a tube and fin (less heat transfer) because that's what their vendor gave them.

Low, high side pressure. Low refrigerant and or oil.

Low side can be tricky because the TXV wants to compensate the evap. If you have low refrigerant it starts to open (low side pressure goes up) to flood the evap and make it colder. it can also close off to bring temp up (lower pressure). If the system has been low on oil for a long time, the txv can be sticky and not meter correctly. During your testing, you should see the txv fluctuate some until it finds its happy spot.

I'm in favor of running a better condenser. That will bring the temps down during low speeds. The basic thing to remember is what an auto ac is designed for. Move max BTU (heat) from inside to outside.
The system better be able to handle all the heat. Max BTU into evap (high fan) carried in the refrigerant to the front where the condenser dumps it out. if you don't have enough refrigerant, you cant carry max heat, too much raises pressure which raises temp.

Think of it like this. Radiator, can you drive your car on the highway with only 70% of your coolant? Sure, as long as its cool out and you have no hills. The system has enough coolant to transfer the BTU (heat) generated to outside. Now its 105 and 80% humidity, vehicle is almost maxed out on weight and your driving over a hill. More load=more heat and outside temp/humidity is working against you. With the cooling system full you have enough coolant to move the heat but you dont, now car overheats.
If your ac system is low on refrigerant it will never pass the stress test (high fan, 1500 rpm). It will give you good vent temps on lower fan speeds (think less btu carrying capacity).

Wow I cant believe I typed all this out. Somewhere in there I said I was in favor of running a better condenser. I'd like to see what you come up with in the way of type and dimensions. The only issue will be, the more efficient parallel flow will also be more restrictive to airflow.

Scott
I can't believe you typed all that either! ;)
Thanks for the info and advice. That makes perfect sense. I need a bigger/more efficient condenser now and when I add a 2nd evaporator. I discussed a dual condenser setup with the folks from Vintage Air. That looks interesting. The trick will be better cooling up front. Now that I'm generating a solid 150A even at idle, I'm looking into a quality Spal pusher fan. Saw a nice PWM model cooling an LS7 conversion.

I'll pull full diagnostic pressure and temps when my gauges arrive and post up!
 
Wow I cant believe I typed all this out.

Hah!

somebody.jpg
 
It's definitely inaccurate on all the car part sites.

Agreed. I have found no less than a dozen sites representing it as 'parallel flow'. I think there may be a general misunderstanding as to what that means. (or is supposed to mean)

Holding the new Denso its very clear in the top and bottom corners, outside the channel, that its definitely flat/multi tube and fin (serpentine flow) like my boy's Dakota.

Then it's settled for me. Probably will not hear back from Denso anyway...but to be clear, I did NOT find any literature from Denso making a 'parallel flow' claim for this radiator. In fact...I could find no mention of the flow characteristic at all (serpentine or parallel).

Serpentine isn't awful, his is quite cold. I just want to upgrade to the PF.

No, Serp isn't necessarily bad. Mine is doing well enough for MY conditions, but I should have been more attentive when installing it 3 years ago and I would have noticed it was not parallel...which is what I thought I had purchased at the time. So my apologies for that. :(

Off topic but the wife's 01 RX300 has a parallel flow that's 29"x17"x5/8". I may look at adapting that one. Her car is stupid cold.

Surely...there is a unit of like capacity that could be adapted to fit and function. It will be a pioneering move on your part if you choose to do so. I would be VERY interested to see the results. Hope you do it.

^^^^^^ Expand for replies.
 
Someone here on MUD got a Denso from Amazon a couple years ago and told me it was P-F, I don't remember who it was.

It was very likely ME.

Only it was a bit over 3 years ago and recent information makes it clear that the condenser involved Denso 477-0554 is NOT parallel (as advertised on multiple sites), but is in fact Flat/Multi tube Serpentine construction.

So...I am presently going back and correcting any posts that contain that error.
 
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So here is some info to help out a bit. I waited for a few years to find the right condenser. I had actually ordered the denso and sent it back. So before I really get into my set up. I need to go back and see what my charge amount was and pull all my temp split with it hot. When I change something on any car like a new style condenser or I convert from r12 to 134a I take temp measurements with a dual temp gauge to get the charge right. This condenser used about a 1/4 of a pound less to get the temp reading I posted. Now when I did the charge it was only 90 here and today it was almost 110. So the pic of the temp was from today. I the engine speed was 1200, the blower was on high, and the front drivers door was open. The truck had been out in the sun for 5 hours. It took about 15 min to get this reading. I hope this helps. I will answer or provide any data that people need it just might be a bit slow in getting it.
 
View attachment 1760186 View attachment 1760187 View attachment 1760188 View attachment 1760189
So here is some info to help out a bit. I waited for a few years to find the right condenser. I had actually ordered the denso and sent it back. So before I really get into my set up. I need to go back and see what my charge amount was and pull all my temp split with it hot. When I change something on any car like a new style condenser or I convert from r12 to 134a I take temp measurements with a dual temp gauge to get the charge right. This condenser used about a 1/4 of a pound less to get the temp reading I posted. Now when I did the charge it was only 90 here and today it was almost 110. So the pic of the temp was from today. I the engine speed was 1200, the blower was on high, and the front drivers door was open. The truck had been out in the sun for 5 hours. It took about 15 min to get this reading. I hope this helps. I will answer or provide any data that people need it just might be a bit slow in getting it.
I've been all over the WorldPac site but can't locate that part number. Would you be able to provide a direct link?
 
I think I may have found the Nissens condenser P/N 94184 (original OEM P/N 88460-60160) shown by @JHB Cruising above and on Page 6.

I just ordered one from Rock Auto. The Nissens part number processed correctly but the line diagram picture is still the serpentine style even though Nissen's online catalog shows it properly. Go figure. I'll post up when it arrives. Here's some links.

Rock Auto: https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/nissens,94184,a/c+condenser,6708

Nissen Online Catalog for P/N 94184: Nissens Customer Portal
 
Found this.

NISSENS 94184.jpg
 

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