latest on hydraulic winches for the *80*?

[tech_dog]

Yes Eric but I was referring to the pull for a single wrap. With an electric winch as you work the motor it heats up and the power output drops with that heating. So if you start a pull with the motor cold it will pull at full strength initially and start to drop off as it heats up. So at the start of the first wrap it will pull at say 12k, but if you pull heavily for that whole first wrap it won't be 12k at the end unless you stop and let the motor cool off.

This isn't the case for Hydraulic as it is smooth continuous power through that wrap regardless if you stop or not.

I always figured the rating was based on first wrap because the second and subsequent wraps are essentially on a larger drum. The larger drum would increase the speed of the pull, but decrease the force. Based on the physics, this has to be a factor.

I kind of doubt that this is a result of an electric motor heating, or it would be spec'ed as "first 30 seconds force", not first wrap force.

 

[landtank]

I kind of doubt that this is a result of an electric motor heating,

All winches are rated for each wrap.

And I'll try this again, With an electric winch if you were to start a pull at the beginning of a wrap and pulled continuously until the end of that wrap the force at the end would be less than at the beginning because the motor will heat up and it's output will drop.

The heavier the pull and the higher the ambient temperature the more this will happen. This is just part of running a high amp electric motor. Heat causes resistance which results in a higher amp draw and lower output.

 

[alkaline747trio]

If that was the case, then why does the milemarker 12000 lb winch have a 12,000lbs rating for first wrap, 9,400lbs for second wrap, 8,200lbs for third wrap, and 7,00lbs for fourth wrap?

Since it can't be because of a hotter electric motor, I think it backs my assumption that it's a result of what is essentially a larger drum on each and every wrap.

Add in the heating element and it is probably less than what is spec'd, unless they are rated with X minutes of heat build-up that would come with the increased # of wraps.

 

[Mickldo]

I was looking at putting a hyd winch on mine so I had a chat with the head engineer at ATS in Brisbane who supplies all of the PTO and hydraulic winches on the vehicles I fit out at work. He was saying that to provide enough pressure and flow the oil will be heated too much and a bigger oil tank and oil cooler will be required to keep the oil temps down. In his opinion it wasn't worth the added weight and complexity.

I also talked to him about PTOs on 80s he told me it is possible just not in the side like earlier cruisers. The back of the t/case has a cover over the end of the mainshaft. He has machined up adaptors to use Land Rover PTOs in this rear mount position. To do this conversion the gearbox needs to be stripped so the end of the mainshaft can be machined to accept the adaptor. But it is possible.

 

[ridgerunner]

Why not just run a second saginaw pump off your engine that is dedicated to the winch itself?

 

[mickey_rubicon]

Couldn't you just add an off the shelf trans oil cooler for the hydraulic fluid to run cooler when using a Hydraulic winch? It seems the cooler unit would also function as a larger reservoir for the fluid. That still sounds easier than a dual battery setup. Just more hose and an oil cooler. Anybody running hydraulic winch that could comment on the heating issue? I have always been intrested in the hydraulic winch setup.

 

[Mickldo]

Not sure about how much the temp will affect the winch, just letting you guys know about the concerns one "expert" had. I reckon a dedicated pump with a cooler will be sufficient but would check the oil temps with a thermometer to be sure you're not going cook the hydraulics on extended whinches.

For those of you that think hydraulics can work all day long think again. Granted they work for longer than an electric but not unstoppable. We have fitted a few hydraulic winches to trucks where I work and have had overheating problems even with 80L oil tanks and huge oil coolers with thermo fans.

I'm sure a normal hydraulic winch is fine in standard form but when you start playing with pressure and flow there are other things that need to be taken into consideration.

 

[MSGGrunt]

Northern Tools has a clutched hydraulic pump that I was considering fabbing to the passengers side of the engine but, for what light wheeling I currently do the stock PS pump is working fine.

Consider this; the military swapped all of their electric winches on the HUMVEE's to MM hydraulics. Not that all the decisions the military makes are the best but, I'm sure they had some good reasons for the change.

 

[landtank]

I did add an auxilary cooler to my PS system as insurance. If I find that the PS pump is not up to the job I'll then add another pump just for the winch. My first choice would be to place it where the current SC goes so that adding another pulley to the crank has already been figured out.

 

[jonb96150]

I've said it before, hydraulic winches don't work upside down.

Having used a winch to self right my 4r after a hard right side flop I won't buy anything but electrics. If I would have needed the engine it would have been ruined and I would have been walking.

Not to your specific question, but's it's worth considering.

 

[alia176]

Northern Tools has a clutched hydraulic pump that I was considering fabbing to the passengers side of the engine but, for what light wheeling I currently do the stock PS pump is working fine.

Consider this; the military swapped all of their electric winches on the HUMVEE's to MM hydraulics. Not that all the decisions the military makes are the best but, I'm sure they had some good reasons for the change.

That hyd pump would be ideal if you can install it somehow. Even then, you need a couple of gallon reservoir for the oil. If you can figure out a way to use a deeper PS reservoir, a large cooler then your winch will be even happier

LR owners with the MM winch, use a deeper PS res made for Beemers. They're much deeper and holds a decent amount of ps fluid. Just a FYI.

Does the millitary still have the MM winches? Thought I heard a rumor that they've changed this again but don't know what winches they moved to.

Ali

 

[e9999]

so MSG, you are using the stock PS pump then. Did you do some serious winching yet, and were the power and speed there?

 

[alia176]

so MSG, you are using the stock PS pump then. Did you do some serious winching yet, and were the power and speed there?

I can answer that one..the power is there but not the speed

 

[e9999]

well, I heard back from tech support at Milemarker.

The following is to be taken with a grain of salt since the tech did at some point in his message confuse (could be a simple typo of course) the LCruiser with a LRover...

basically he said that -presumably with the 97 LC- the pressure is around 900 to 1100 psi only vs the 1500 they use for rating. This sounds consistent with what Robbie was saying. The tech also said that the flow is likely comparatively smaller.

Practically speaking he wrote that the 12K winch would be effectively acting like an 8-9K winch and at a lower speed than the rated 12K too.

9K is still fine for the 80 but that's a bit of a letdown.

Of course, one could upgrade the PS pump but I don't know how expensive and this would be.

 

[landtank]

Of course, one could upgrade the PS pump but I don't know how expensive and this would be.

I doubt that there would be an upgrade available unless it was from another market since it's gear driven.

My plan if I feel it's needed is a dedicated pump like what Msgrunt posted. But for me it will be a wait and see kind of thing.

But I'm still a little weary about MM specs on the LC because it's not a popular install like on the LRs and Jeeps, but maybe they have evaluated all the different pumps that are out there.

 

[e9999]

Rick, how about you save us all much uncertainty and go winch the dang thing up and down a few hills so we know for sure...! we'll all be grateful -again- and you will be enshrined -again- in the MUD Hall of hydraulic fame...


practically speaking, I'm leery of getting the 12K unless I know what sorts of speed we'd be getting in high gear... bummer! I really like the hydraulic idea. much more elegant than electric IMO...

 

[reffug]

:shotts:


Its dead already.

Search read through the archives for ing out loud.

 

[landtank]

I'm actually going to drag my wife's 4Runner around on a dirt road come Thursday I think. But what will that prove? I'll post up the results.

 

[e9999]

RT, could you try and measure rough speeds at some known rpms and wrap number? that would be interesting.


added:
OK, now the MM tech tells me that their adapter kit will NOT fit the 97LC... what's with that?

 

[landtank]

Ok Eric this is what I got for you. My wife got home from work and wasn't all that keen on doing it but she did so multiple lap times were out of the question.

I had her in her 96 4Runner down hill and at the full 100ft cable length away. In high which is the 6000lbs rating it pulled the truck up that hill in 3.5 minutes. I did get the hand throttle installed this morning and had the engine rpm at 1500. A few shorter test pulls showed that with the truck at idle, the time for a full length pull would be quite a bit more.

I have an auxiliary cooler on my system and the higher rpms also got more air flowing through it as well.

Obviously this isn't much of a strength test but there was no noises that I'd associate to a straining pump during the pull.

All in all I'm pleased with my setup so far and would advise a cooler and hand throttle for anyone who goes this route.