Knuckle Cut & Turn (2 Viewers)

[landtank]

I'm not sure why you would need to address the pinion angle? When you correct the caster by rotating the housing you change the angle, but the benefit of this approach is the ability to adjust the caster without changing the pinion angle.

This is along the lines of what I am concerned about with a cut-n-turn on an 80 front.

While it has been posted that you are not changing the pinion angle, that depends on how you look at it.

By the fact that you have lifted the truck you have altered the pinion angle compared to horizontal. We have radius arms after all.

So on a 4" lift the pinion is now pointing up by about 7* more than stock.

So the question for me is how does this impact lubrication to the outer pinion bearing?

While this is a common practice on older LCs they aren't high pinion nor do they typically see the kind of mileage 80s and newer trucks see and part time to boot.

As far as costs goes caster plates aren't all that cheap if you want a vib free truck and need a DC shaft. But they do offer predictability and deal with my concerns over lubrication.

Kudos to you as I haven't been able to talk myself into trying that.

 

[TheBigBoy]

While it has been posted that you are not changing the pinion angle, that depends on how you look at it.

By the fact that you have lifted the truck you have altered the pinion angle compared to horizontal. We have radius arms after all.


So the question for me is how does this impact lubrication to the outer pinion bearing?

Thats it. By lifting the truck the pinion is already altered.


The lubricating thing was a concern originally. "Is oil reaching the oil slinger?" but you have to remember the op has probably been driving around for a long time the way it already is with no problems.

 

[landtank]

Thats it. By lifting the truck the pinion is already altered.


The lubricating thing was a concern originally. "Is oil reaching the oil slinger?" but you have to remember the op has probably been driving around for a long time the way it already is with no problems.

my understanding is that he had caster bushings installed prior to the cut and turn, so the diff would have been close to stock as far as the lubrication thing goes.

 

[TheBigBoy]

my understanding is that he had caster bushings installed prior to the cut and turn, so the diff would have been close to stock as far as the lubrication thing goes.

My understanding was he had yellow caster bushes, but as he was rebuilding his front anyway. He did the cut and turn instead. Either way Ive seen alot of people drive with uncorrected caster for a long amount of time with no ill effects in regards to oil.

 

[SNLC]

It's not free. You need a grinder, sawzall and a welder. Which cost way more that castor plates will ever cost.

Dude really? You also need some skills beyond bolting some s*** under your truck that is an on the shelf part.

Jason, the OP, is a very good friend of mine. He has built me trucks, helped me build some and is helping me build more. He has a long long history of building all kinds of trucks, worked in many shops from the now famous fab shops to diff shops and lots more. He knows WTF he is doing. Isn't it obvious? I don't think he came here and said, my way is best, do it my way, blah blah blah. Rather, he said, this is how I am going to do it and this is why and here it is I am doing it and now here are the results.

If you don't like it fine no worries. If you are happy with some bolt on castor plates, again, no worries but back off the dues thread and let him share his info with everyone with out being so...um, asshatish.

He doesn't have to post any of this or take pictures, ect ect. He has 2 kids, a job, a wife and a life. It takes time and effort to post things like he has, take pictures, upload them, do the write up, ect ect. I never understood why armchair quaterbacks feel the need to get in a thread like this and start going off about how such and such is better or cheaper or whatever. It is not your truck dude, so chill out and move on!

Cheers

 

[SNLC]

Krazytoy helped me do the C&T (actually he did most of it) on my 84 FJ60 a few summers ago. I fit the lame MAF shackle reversal kit and a 2.5" OME lift. I hated the stupid wedge plates that came with the kit and when I flexed the truck up to check for shock length before I bought shocks, my front drive shaft fell out. So we decided a C&T was in order not only to set castor but to fix my lame driveline angles. I think we set it at 5* and I was running 35's, SUA.

It turned out so unbelievably sweet! The best handling leaf sprung truck I have ever driven. I could do 70mph on the HWY in 4wd on dry pavement and had zero vibes, wobble or any of that not to mention I was running Maxxis Creepies with some wheels nearly a pound of weights on them! It tracked straight and true and didn't wonder a bit. Zero bump steer. I am also the only dude I know of who has ran 35's on a 60 SUA and had zero rub.

Cheers

 

[OGBeno]

I like the bit about screwing with Mr. T's design parameters!!

Christo-- didn't you spend some significant time researching cut n turns when you did the Blueberry?

Anyway, kudus to OP for trying out different angles to the same problem (all pun intended).

 

[landtank]

Either way Ive seen alot of people drive with uncorrected caster for a long amount of time with no ill effects in regards to oil.

how many miles are in a in "a long amount of time"? And these trucks are full time vehicles?

 

[sleeoffroad]

Christo-- didn't you spend some significant time researching cut n turns when you did the Blueberry?

Nope, since we used a fabricated housing and could put the knuckles / pinion angle where we wanted, that is what we did. On both the SAS 100's we did. Again doing the same on the one that is in the shop right now.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Well executed in a timely manner. Clean straight forward approach.

Nice solution to a common problem. I predict we will start to see this more.

Assuming you are a wheeler keep an eye on your tie rod to arm clearance. My guess you will need to address it just like the plates guys that wheel there 80's.

Plates are for guys that dont have your skills and tools. Plates are also for guys that have your skills and tools but didnt think of it or have the balls to do it first.

 

[jcardona1]

Plates are for guys that dont have your skills and tools.

I fall under this category!! Wish I had the skills but for now I'm a bolt-on guy like Wrench

I need to find a local guy that knows how to do this on an 80. Seems like a much better way to go vs plates.

 

[DARKNESS]

Cutting I can do. Turning I can do. Welding critical components to the front axle I cannot do.

 

[Mr Cimarron]

Cutting I can do. Turning I can do. Welding critical components to the front axle I cannot do.

Same here. I have a welder but wouldn't try welding something like this. I did weld and bolt my correction plates on but thats about the extent of my skills.
Cut & Turn would be cheaper if you have the the equipment and skills rather than buying plates.

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Seems like a much better way to go vs plates.

Caster is still limited by the tie rod to control arm clearance either way unless you go high steer.

I see this as a great option for the 37 and up crowd. Control arms flipped on top, cut and turn, high steer, and 40's with good road manors...who da ever thought. Saved for another thread

 

[Krazytoy]

That is not the way they teach you to make that type of weld in welding school. The weld is like an AWS 5G position pipe weld with a backing ring and for a MIG weld the proper joint design would be a 75 degree V with a knife edge land with at least an 1/8 inch root gap. When you have both the proper joint design and the properly executed weld, then you can be certifiably confident.

In a perfect world I would have pulled the whole housing and chucked it in a lathe and made a 75* V with an edge and the TIG welded it in a hermetically sealed box! We don't live in that world, but I did use to weld in that world. When I said much more "critical" welds I meant it, I used to weld out here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_National_Laboratory. You can question and pull out your welding manuals all you want, I'm confident in what I do and how I do it.

So on a 4" lift the pinion is now pointing up by about 7* more than stock.

So the question for me is how does this impact lubrication to the outer pinion bearing?

Kudos to you as I haven't been able to talk myself into trying that.

Tank, Your measurements on the pinion seem about right. The lift I have on the Cruiser was on it when I bought it about a year ago and have put over 10K miles on it in the last year. The Yellow bushing I have were never installed. In my professional opinion you are overly concerned on the oiling of the pinion. When I tore the diffs apart the pinion bearings were in better shape than the carrier bearings. In my experiences if a bearing is going to fail it is going to do it within the first few 1000 miles at the most. Granted I did over fill mine with oil by probably a 1/2 quart...

Thats it. By lifting the truck the pinion is already altered.

The lubricating thing was a concern originally. "Is oil reaching the oil slinger?" but you have to remember the op has probably been driving around for a long time the way it already is with no problems.

Yep, Like I said over 10k miles that I have driven it.

My understanding was he had yellow caster bushes, but as he was rebuilding his front anyway. He did the cut and turn instead. Either way Ive seen alot of people drive with uncorrected caster for a long amount of time with no ill effects in regards to oil.

Correct I never installed the yellow bushings.

It turned out so unbelievably sweet! The best handling leaf sprung truck I have ever driven. I could do 70mph on the HWY in 4wd on dry pavement and had zero vibes, wobble or any of that not to mention I was running Maxxis Creepies with some wheels nearly a pound of weights on them! It tracked straight and true and didn't wonder a bit. Zero bump steer. I am also the only dude I know of who has ran 35's on a 60 SUA and had zero rub.

Cheers

Thanks Bro, I do miss that Cruiser...

I like the bit about screwing with Mr. T's design parameters!!

Anyway, kudus to OP for trying out different angles to the same problem (all pun intended).

Funny, I was actually thinking about your past comments when I wrote that.

how many miles are in a in "a long amount of time"? And these trucks are full time vehicles?

Tank, this is what really needs to be determined before a logical conversation can begin. I would say the service life of a properly maintained and not abused differential would be somewhere in the 200K-250K mile range. Mine has right at 175K on it now and would have had no problem re-using the bearings in the diffs. Full time or not does not make a bit of difference to the gears, OEM manufactures are not going to design a diff that fails at 100K miles and I guarantee you a hi-pinion diff oils as good if not better than a standard rotation diff. Rear ends go for 100's of thousands of miles with no issues with bare minimum maintenance. I don't think my pinion bearings are going to fail because of 7* more on my pinion. If I get 50K less miles out of my differential because I lifted the Cruiser to take me all the places I enjoy going with my family then to me that is a small price to pay...

Nope, since we used a fabricated housing and could put the knuckles / pinion angle where we wanted, that is what we did. On both the SAS 100's we did. Again doing the same on the one that is in the shop right now.

You guys took the easy way out! Both beautiful rigs by the way.

Well executed in a timely manner. Clean straight forward approach.
Nice solution to a common problem. I predict we will start to see this more.

Assuming you are a wheeler keep an eye on your tie rod to arm clearance. My guess you will need to address it just like the plates guys that wheel there 80's.

Plates are for guys that dont have your skills and tools. Plates are also for guys that have your skills and tools but didnt think of it or have the balls to do it first.

Phil I will keep an eye on the tie-rod and let everyone know if I have issues. I use it just as hard as anyone else and I'm not afraid to admit if I screw something up. We are heading to Silverton CO end of next week for probably a 1500 mile road trip and wheelin' in the mountains so I will report back. Thanks for the kind words.

Cutting I can do. Turning I can do. Welding critical components to the front axle I cannot do.

Please, if you don't feel comfortable welding this DON'T! Serious death or injury may occur! ← That is my disclaimer...

 

[Pin_Head]

In a perfect world I would have pulled the whole housing and chucked it in a lathe and made a 75* V with an edge and the TIG welded it in a hermetically sealed box! We don't live in that world, but I did use to weld in that world. When I said much more "critical" welds I meant it...

30 minutes with a grinder would have done the job too.

You don't think this weld is critical enough to take the time to make the proper joint design, but this is something that they teach you in welding school too.

 

[bhmmapping]

30 minutes with a grinder would have done the job too.

You don't think this weld is critical enough to take the time to make the proper joint design, but this is something that they teach you in welding school too.

It's not a high pressure gas pipe so I can see why he wouldn't go to the trouble to weld it like one.

 

[DARKNESS]

Please, if you don't feel comfortable welding this DON'T! Serious death or injury may occur! ← That is my disclaimer...

Whatever, I'll just JB Weld it or use a hose clamp or something. Problem solved!

 

[Pin_Head]

It's not a high pressure gas pipe so I can see why he wouldn't go to the trouble to weld it like one.

No, it is not high pressure pipe, but it is still a critical weld in my opinion. AWS standards are for all types of critical welds, not just high pressure ones. The reason they have standards is because they are proven to make good welds all the time. It would only take 30 minutes to make the joint design to AWS standards. 30 minutes is not much trouble in my opinion and it is well worth it. Why guess when it comes to safety? I don't mean to keep harping on this, but safety is the type of thing that they stress in welding school. If you go to welding school they teach you about critical welds, who should make them and how to make them.

Confidence is not a substitute for competence.

 

[DARKNESS]

Out of curiosity, is it critical that the outer housing is welded to the inner sleeve in this case? It seems like that wouldn't matter since the sleeve is already welded to the housing on the OEM weld.