I am doing it man! Don't try to stop me...

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I have had the following:
SC with 4.88's and 315's - 1995 truck
No SC with 4.88's and 315's and 37" - 1995 truck
No SC with 5.29's and 37's - 1994 truck

The only way I would do 5.29's on 35's is if I did not care to drive over 70 mph.

Me too.

Although I would say "cruise" over 70 mph, because 80 is a non-issue for short stretches.

Of course, Skillet just said he rarely drives over 70 mph and has a heavy rig. And he wants to run 315's. He may want a greater focus on offroad performance with his new 315's. And this board told him to run 4.88's, which he just bought. :hhmm:

So...seems like 5.29's would have been pretty viable. Still upper limits, but unquestionably viable, in contrast to say "overkill".

I can see my :flipoff2: coming up soon, 'cause he's gonna love those 4.88's on 305's. I think my $20 just went up a bit. :clap:
 
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After this, I moved up to 32", 33", and 34" tires, reducing OD RPM by about 125 each time. Onroad, the large 34" trxus were actually better than the 33x10.5 BFG AT's, because they mated up better to OD off, but offroad it felt undergeared. The "paper math" for an XJ, BTW, was that 4.56 and 33" was "back to stock" and same basic argument for 4.88's and 35's on an 80, and I didn't like that ratio on 33's anywhere near as much as I liked it on 31's.

hummm... You're saying that 4.88 on 35's the "paper math" is "back to stock"? Nope, 4.56's or 4.599 if you wanna get precice about it.

What's the OD ratio on a 80 anyway, I forget if it's .75 or .8.... either way your statement of '"Only 250 RPM in OD" is a bit misleading. If you're just comparing 4.88's to 5.29's and shifting the 'sweet spot' between one and another - ya' it's about 250rpm. Only problem is the engine isn't tuned to run at the 2800rpm of 4.88's on 35's, it's tuned to run the 2650 of 4.10's on 31's. So the 3050 you're running at 75 with 5.29's is more like a 400rpm jump than 'only' a 250rpm jump. Well, that's assuming .8, if it's .75, it' 2483rpm on 4.10's and 31's, 2635 on 4.88's on 35's (an increase of 152rpm probably a bit more on 'short' 315's), and 2856rpm on 5.29's on 35's (increase of 373, again a bit more if your 35's are actually 34.5)

I'll agree though, for those of us on 35's who actually have someplace to be and can't put around at 65mph, 5.29's are too much gear
 
hummm... You're saying that 4.88 on 35's the "paper math" is "back to stock"? Nope, 4.56's or 4.599 if you wanna get precice about it.

What's the OD ratio on a 80 anyway, I forget if it's .75 or .8.... either way your statement of '"Only 250 RPM in OD" is a bit misleading. If you're just comparing 4.88's to 5.29's and shifting the 'sweet spot' between one and another - ya' it's about 250rpm. Only problem is the engine isn't tuned to run at the 2800rpm of 4.88's on 35's, it's tuned to run the 2650 of 4.10's on 31's. So the 3050 you're running at 75 with 5.29's is more like a 400rpm jump than 'only' a 250rpm jump. Well, that's assuming .8, if it's .75, it' 2483rpm on 4.10's and 31's, 2635 on 4.88's on 35's (an increase of 152rpm probably a bit more on 'short' 315's), and 2856rpm on 5.29's on 35's (increase of 373, again a bit more if your 35's are actually 34.5)

I'll agree though, for those of us on 35's who actually have someplace to be and can't put around at 65mph, 5.29's are too much gear

I'm not doing paper math, because the paper math is always wrong. I'm doing GPS calibrated RPM. 70 mph is 2,700 RPM on my rig with my tires. And these engines love to run at 2,700 RPM when pushing big tires and more weight. A lot more than they like to be "tuned to stock". That's why it is a "sweet spot". The same exact sweet spot a 4.88 user is getting at 75 mph. This is why at the highway at 65-70 mph I have recorded over 15 mpg, filling up at the same pump, despite my large sticky MT's.

And yes, if you want to drive 75 mph+, don't do 5.29's, you won't like them. As I keep saying, my tires don't like 75 mph+, so it's a moot point. I might as well spend $3K on a supercharger so I can have to run all terrains while I am at it :flipoff2:

And no, I am not going to change my tires, they are critical to my design and well documented. I don't make design decisions as if variables in the system exist independently. Our resident engineers appear to be weighing in on the independent variable, rather than the system, so we need some wrist slapping. :clap:

Understand your design parameters, and make decisions consistent to those with empirical data points if possible. We have empirical data points on 4.88 vs. 5.29, why don't we put an RPM chart based on real world GPS calculated figures with similar size tires (Toyo MT on Romer's rig vs. Trxus MT on mine would work), and calculate crawl ratio with a stock t-case as well? As of now, you wouldn't put 5.29 in the FAQ, because according to the herd they don't make sense.

You will never get an empirical data point on breakage without running the same gears set up identically on the same rig as stress test them. 5.29's may break more, but 5.29's are on more "break more" trails. It doesn't mean a thing statistically.
 
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Let me tell you a story... I had a 1985 4Runner that I was putting on 33's and a locked rear for my daily driver/weekend warrior. I put 4.88 gears in it because according to gearing charts and "proper math" that was going to be about 150 RPM higher than stock. I thought that would be perfect! I had them for about 3 months before I started wishing I would have done 5.29's. Going up passes is was in 4th gear at 45mph and I was still stalling the truck off road. It became worse when I decided 33's weren't tall enough. My point is, I fear that the people who actually wheel these things on a regular basis shouldn't mess with 4.88's... Your going to be disappointed (unless you have a lung on it, like Romer).

Now, Romer mentioned that 5.29's are weaker than 4.88's. That is true, but you also need to take into account that you are going to be taking things slower and more controlled. Personaly, I think that if anybody will break something on these, it will probably be me and I'm not worried about running 5.29's... even with Longfields and (eventually) 37's.
 
I have until Monday before these things ship.

Probably a good idea for me to check rpm comfort a bit before a final decision.

You guys are killing me.


:flipoff2:
 
Agreed. We always rec. 4.88 w/ 35's. In fact I have racked up over 200,000 miles on 4.88's between my 93, 96, and my 99 (uzj100) all on 35's w/ 4.88. All have had bumpers, winches, drawers etc and I do tow. No need to go 5.29 unless you have a 3fe, or really just want low gears. I have driven them with just about any combo. This is not based off of one vehicle being done one way.


I have had the following:
SC with 4.88's and 315's - 1995 truck
No SC with 4.88's and 315's and 37" - 1995 truck
No SC with 5.29's and 37's - 1994 truck

The only way I would do 5.29's on 35's is if I did not care to drive over 70 mph. 5.29's with 315's is simply to much for running on the highway and 70/80mph.
 
I'm just giving you crap since you posted that 4.88's are great and didn't post that you have a SC. And now you are saying the SC doesn't come into play except on mountain passes. We should pull up some threads on SC vs. turbo for the sake of consistency :D

And of course 4.88's with a SC and a bunch of really heavy accessories is less of a breakage risk than a lighter rig on 5.29's naturally aspirated :hhmm:

You seem to be doing that a lot lately, Makes me wonder how I have offended you.


Didn't realize I was hiding I had a supercharger since it's in my sig line.

The supertcharger doesn't come into play when wheeling or when driving constant speed on the highway. It does not impact top speed, only the time to get there. It does impact speed on mtn passes where the extra horses are required to increase the speed because of the load.

I don't see how the extra weight of the vehicle impacts the gears. The wheels and tires and birfs yes, but by the time the mechanical transfer gets to the diff it shouldn't make much difference.

The stress point I am talking about is when the wheel binds like your locked when you shouldn't be (Just and example to illustrate) and that binding puts additional stress on the ring and pinion breaking the smaller gears. I don't see a few hundred pounds impacting the stress on the diff gears at this point.

I would have gone 4.88's even without the supercharger. This comes down to personal preference in some respects.

  • My preference is to nevere run a tire bigger than 35"
  • My preference is to have stronger gears of the sets I have to choose from. I have helped several folks fix there broken rear diff in the boonies and it is not fun. These were not the gears in question, just why I prefer to have stronger gears even if the difference is small.
  • My preference is to be able to drive long distances on the highway at higher speeds if I want. Flat highways in the boonies are typically 75 MPH and the 14 hour drive to Flat Nasty or the 2 day drive to the Rubicon will be much shorter and more comfortable if I can maintain speed.
So thats my preference. The supercharger gives it faster pickup and more HP on the mtn roads., but I would make the same choice based on the above if I didn't have it.

Nay have not had 5.29's and you have not had 4.88's and we are both happy with our setups, It's human nature to justify what one has spent a ton of money on and be defensive.

Christo has had both and has a better perspective to add to this discussion.
 
So the Gears sound like a great Idea. What does it take to install them or how much should i expect to pay a shop to do the work.
 
Good read, I have 4.88's on my to do list but I only run 285's. I do not plan on going up to 315's anytime. I figured 4.56's wouldn't create a noticeable difference and didn't want to be disappointed. I don't hit the freeway much and when I do 75 is about it for my comfort level in the 80. Anyone think 4.88's are too low in my situation?
 
Thanks for the spirited discussion on this, Gentlemen.

Your gonna be thrilled with the 4.88's man don't second guess yourself.

If you were thinking about 4.56 then we would probably all push you lower but you should be more than happy with your decision.
 
Remember, Romer, nay, myself and few others are sitting at 5K plus in altitude...

so sluggish to us is different than you :D

4.88's are good to go for what your needs are. (ie not tons of crawling)
 
I'm not doing paper math, because the paper math is always wrong. I'm doing GPS calibrated RPM. 70 mph is 2,700 RPM on my rig with my tires.

I'd written out a nice detailed reply point by point and lost it. So I'll just point out that paper math is not always wrong, though your calculation of what was back to stock was wrong, so I'll concied that NAY's paper math is always wrong. Which certainly puts into question how you arived at 15mpg if paper math is ALWAYS wrong. It also puts into question how you determed the speed and rpm for 4.88's that you stated since you've never run 4.88's on your truck. I can only surmise that you either guessed or used paper math, which as you stated is ALWAYS WRONG.

Try saying something like the bellow, it makes your point without stating anything that you have no experience with (80series w/4.88's), or using paper math, or having to defend how you determined 2700rpm is the sweet spot for these engines.

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I like running 5.29's and 35's. I drive slow lane 65-70mph, which is around 2700rpm, which I've found to work very well for me. Also note my 35's are 'true' 35's, and measure taller than many 315's.
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Since you've never run 4.88's on a 80 series, and you don't want to use any calculations, that statement is what you are qualified to make, and it's actually a solid statement. Nay - I've agreed with you on many things, lift to fit tires, tube bumpers, ect. but weither I agreed with you or not on 5.29's for 35's, I can't agree with the argument you're making for them. It's a bad argument.
 
I'd written out a nice detailed reply point by point and lost it. So I'll just point out that paper math is not always wrong, though your calculation of what was back to stock was wrong, so I'll concied that NAY's paper math is always wrong. Which certainly puts into question how you arived at 15mpg if paper math is ALWAYS wrong. It also puts into question how you determed the speed and rpm for 4.88's that you stated since you've never run 4.88's on your truck. I can only surmise that you either guessed or used paper math, which as you stated is ALWAYS WRONG.

Try saying something like the bellow, it makes your point without stating anything that you have no experience with (80series w/4.88's), or using paper math, or having to defend how you determined 2700rpm is the sweet spot for these engines.

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I like running 5.29's and 35's. I drive slow lane 65-70mph, which is around 2700rpm, which I've found to work very well for me. Also note my 35's are 'true' 35's, and measure taller than many 315's.
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Since you've never run 4.88's on a 80 series, and you don't want to use any calculations, that statement is what you are qualified to make, and it's actually a solid statement. Nay - I've agreed with you on many things, lift to fit tires, tube bumpers, ect. but weither I agreed with you or not on 5.29's for 35's, I can't agree with the argument you're making for them. It's a bad argument.

The paper math, by which I mean gear charts, are not accurate. They, and you, are making an assumption for your "good argument" that is not accurate and is disproved by observed results with calibrated equipment.

In any case, let's take a peek through the looking glass from the other side.

If we can agree that people might have a reason to drive under 70 mph (many of us do for very valid reasons that have been mocked on this thread, even by some supposedly extremely safety conscious people), and we can agree that often the reasons for driving under 70 mph correlate to an increased need for lower gearing (aggressive offroad tires, very heavy weight, etc.), then is it wrong to suggest that 5.29's might be a better ratio than 4.88's for those users?

If it is wrong (a bad argument) to make that suggestion, especially when the title of the thread is "Don't try to stop me", please explain why.

Ken, you haven't offended me. Please don't take any feather ruffling personally - threads like this are the very few on this forum worth the fight.
 
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The paper math, by which I mean gear charts, are not accurate. They, and you, are making an assumption for your "good argument" about rolling radius that is not accurate and is disproved by observed results with calibrated equipment. If you are going to make a case on a false basis, at least caveat that for your poor user. The inaccuracy of gearing charts is common knowledge everywhere but here.

Observed results with calibrated equipment huh? Like a tach that only has marks ever 500rpm? And where was your observed result with 4.88's at 75? Oh, ya', you've never run 4.88's with your tires, so you can't have observed results on the rpm, so the values must have just magically appeared.

BTW, I'm not using a chart, I'm using real calculations. Perhaps you're used to your Cherokee friends who need to have stuff explained to them like 315's aren't necesarily 35", but guess that's kinda common knowledge with most people (though I did restate it in one of my posts for clarity that it has an effect), and of course you're going to have to take into account actual tire size and not just what's printed on the side.


In any case, let's take a peek through the looking glass from the other side.

If we can agree that people might have a reason to drive under 70 mph (many of us do for very valid reasons that have been mocked on this thread, even by some supposedly extremely safety conscious people), and we can agree that often the reasons for driving under 70 mph correlate to an increased need for lower gearing (aggressive offroad tires, very heavy weight, etc.), then is it wrong to suggest that 5.29's might be a better ratio than 4.88's for those users?.

Nope, it's not wrong to suggest that 5.29's might be better for some people. I've not said they don't have there place. And that's pretty much what I said you should have said - though adding in that your 35's measure closer to a real 35" than most 315's, since that .5-1" will have an effect on 'actual observed results'


If it is wrong (a bad argument) to make that suggestion, especially when the title of the thread is "Don't try to stop me", please explain why.

Wrong and bad argument are two different things. You can be right and still have an arguement that is not well supported. If you'd started out with a statement of - for me, in these conditions, for these reasons - would have been fine.

But you didn't. You started out with 'You should go 5.29's :flipoff2:' 'They are the new black' and '4.88's are so 2005.'- ya' that's solid reasoning. Then you incorrectly say 4.88's get you back to stock - corrected by 2 people. Then a bunch of #'s on RPM and speed on 4.88's vs. 5.29's, which can't be substatiated by 'observed results' , since you've never run 4.88's, and you say 'paper math is always wrong', so we know it doesn't come from math. And if you do the math, you're a bit off. Oh, and Romer's hiding his Supercharger (by putting it in his sig line), so his input is not valid.

It's a bad argument cause you're #'s are wrong (4.56 not 4.88) or unsubstatiated (rpm w/ 4.88's), and you have more flippant remarks than facts.

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A good summary that will be hard for anyone to argue with

If going to 315's or 35's:

4.56 gears will get your cruising rpm back to roughly stock

4.88 gears will rev a little more than stock at hwy speed, but will give a little more pull to help with the extra weight of the tires and the other associated accessories that usually go with going ot 35's. They're still acceptable though for running 75-80mph down the interstate.

5.29 gears will rev up a bit more than 4.88's and a fair ammount more than stock, but will give you better acceleration and better crawling control. Worth considering if you're a slow lane driver, tow with your truck often, or live and drive at high altitude alot.
 

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