I am a bit baffled...Tech Troubleshooting

[Lucy_FJ55]

WARNING! A bit long.

I am a bit baffled...

I was driving the '77 pig around yesterday for the first time in about a week. Once during the day, I heard a metal grinding-type noise while trying to start the rig. The sound was familiar and I thought it came from my starter which I replaced less than a year ago because of repeated similar sounds and then the starter eventualy failed.

Later on my way home from cruisn' and doing errands all day my rig stalls while I was slowing down for an intersection. I quickly turned the key in the ignition and-nothing. Well, actually a faint click. Rolled into a parking lot with the rest of my momentum and popped the hood. I tried the key again and just a faint click. The starter was not spinning. Checked wires and fittings etc. Checked for fuel and such at first thinking maybe there was a starvation issue because of other previous problems but that all looked kosher. Had a stranger stop to help and we tried figuring things out further. Jump start did nothing. Still had power to handle lights and accessories without any slow diminishing of electronics. Alternator belt is fairly tight/not too loose. Found that the positive battery cable was a little loose. Tightened, but no help. Gapped the two nuts/bolts/fittings on the end of the starter with a wrench and had a spark but the starter did not spin.

So we start thinking that the problem exists in the starter. I had a friend tow me home and it has sat since last night. The earlier starter I removed had slowly been destroyed, the gear worn down from repeated grinding.

So, did I actually just mask a larger problem by replacing the starter? Could my flywheel be damaging the starter? Could the flywheel itself be damaged?I guess I will know more after I pull the starter and take a look. I will do some searching of the tech section for info also but thought I should post here first. I of course value everyone's ideas and opinions but respect you guys more then the 'general' cruiser public. HA HA. Anyway, if you can help let me hear your ideas and thanks for any advice. Carlos

 

[fng55]

sure sounds like you killed the starter.
i once had similar problems in a 74 nova, this may help:
sand/ scape the paint off the new starter where it bolts to the block.
check your chassis gruond wire.
if your starter has 2 'start' terminals, make sure both get power.
if you run a starter on low voltage/ bad wires it may get incomplete egagement w/ the flywheel, worn/ broken teeth will result. thats what happened to my nova.
good luck, carl

 

[RHINO]

could just be bad cables too, if it ends up being the starter get a replacement from a newer FJ60, it'll bolt right on and has gear reduction.

 

[Pighead]

That does not sound good. But it could be as simple as a bad solenoid. Yes, you could have worn down or missing teeth on the flywheel but you would probably "hear" that more often. Easy check is to pull that bottom cover and look at the flywheel. But since you heard the grind and then later that same day the starter quit, and gapping the posts on the solenoid did nothing, I would guess starter and/or solenoid...I've replaced a few starters, but never had to replace a flywheel.
Sometimes banging on the starter housing helps.
Sometimes those rebuilt starters only last a year.
It was time for a gear reduction starter anyway, get one with a lifetime warrenty

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

Thanks everybody!

I have not done anything about this since I first posted. I left the cruiser in the driveway and it has just sat. I will be looking for a gear reduction starter and may have my orig. rebuilt locally for a back-up. The first starter I pulled off was definitey worn but I never checked the flywheel. I will let ya'all know if I have any other problems.

Carlos

 

[mudnyreye]

It is possible that you only killed the Bendix. Sometimes they stick (the Grinding Sound?) you can get a replacement bendix only, if your starter is still good.

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

Um, still having starter problems.

I tried cleaning all my posts and terminals and still no luck with the old starter. I ordered a new gear reduc. starter from Cruiserdan and it is on the way, but I need my truck driving by tomorrow afternoon, if possible. So last night I swapped the starter from my '70 pig into my '77 pig. The '77 starter is slightly different-it has a third post with an extra blk/red wire and clip hanging off it. So I had planned on swapping the wire from the 'old' starter to the 'new' starter, but the 'new starter does not have the extra post!? I slapped the starter in without hooking up that wire and same sound as the 'old' starter. I am going out to check ground wires now. Any other guesses, or advice?

Thanks, Carlos.

 

[RHINO]

check the ground wire from the engine to the body, not from the batt but another one to the body (firewall). if it looks questionable add a nice ground wire from the starter mounting bolt right to the firewall.

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

I found in the manuals and on a buddy's '81 FJ40 a ground wire stretching from the bottom bolt of the starter to the frame. Of course neither of my pigs have this so I did not think of it. I will attach a ground there to mimic the manual, but am I also missing a ground then from the starter to the firewall? Or isn't that essentially the same thing? I guess multiple grounds can't hurt anything, right? Better than none I suppose. Thanks, I am going back out to fiddle with it.

 

[RHINO]

yeah carlos its the same thing. alot of the electrics ground on the firewall so its good to have a ground to that also, most rigs have a firewall ground wire from the back of the head.
i have seen alot of "bad starters" fixed with a ground wire installed.

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

Thanks Rhino.

I slapped a 'temp.' ground wire on the starter but it is a very thin wire. I am not certain if it is really doing much. Should work, right? Anyway same problem still exists. I am going out to see if I can push my truck and turn the engine (with the plugs out and in 4th gear). Tried this a bit yesterday with the plugs in and was only able to rock it slightly back and forth. Now I am starting to freak out. Wish me luck...

Carlos

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

She's toast. I seized my engine. Tried a few things to get her unstuck but she's stubborn. I have a 2F engine, 4 spd, split t-case from an '81 40 I will probably toss in for awhile. Yea. Thanks for everyone's help and advice.

 

[RUSH55]

Man, that really sucks! Were you driving around with no oil pressure or what? I've totally seized an engine before, and it made all kinds of racket before it locked up. I'd drop the oil pan before you get too involved. Maybe it's something relativly simple.

 

[lingo]

Lucy, check poser's post in the 40-55 section on main bearings. I couldn't believe that small of a problem would lock down and engine the way it did.

Here it is https://forum.ih8mud.com/showthread.php?t=77057&highlight=main+bearings

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

I also seized an engine before and vowed to never let it happen again. DOH! First time I was 20 or so and it was my first Toy, a 4Runner. Leaked, smoked, burned oil, ran like poo, and sounded horrible for a long time before it died horribly. With this rig I did notice a slight decrease in power recently and just before it seized I also noticed wierd fluctuating oil pressure readings from the stock dash gauge. I checked my oil level and condition repeatedly for a week or so and was concerned about the fluctuating pressure levels. It would start off low and then slowly level out to a decent level while driving. Since the oil seemed fine I began to assume the guage was begining to fail or something? Bad move. I thought I was being deligent about the oil. I did not see any substantial leaks or smoking, until after the incident. There was a good-sized puddle under my rig after it had been in my garage for over a month. Anyway, when it 'stalled' at an intersection I was not that concerned. And there it sat in my garage waiting for some time and money. Bad dream.

BUT, I purchased an '81 2F engine, 4 spd, split t-case from a rolled FJ40 a few months back. It has been sitting in my friend's driveway all winter. Well I went over there this weekend to try and extricate it from the donor and am close to being able to pull it. Stay tuned...

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

Lingo- Thanks for the link. Very interesting...

 

[Lucy_FJ55]

Here are some pics of the donor rig and the engine I'll be swapping. Made a little progress, more to follow.