How much boost can 1HZ-T handle?

[ForealBoreal]

Lets work through Graeme's AFR and boost recommendations:

25psi at 21:1 AF ratio and 2,500rpm on a 1HZ gives you ~450Nm torque. You need a big intercooler too.

To get the same ~450Nm torque on a 1HD-T at the same 2,500rpm requires only 11psi (stock boost) and an intercooler fitted.
AF ratio 18:1.
The differences are the higher efficiency requiring less fuel and less air combined with the more robust cylinders surviving fine at a lower air/fuel ratio (higher fuel/air ratio) and higher EGT.

So the 1HZ requires 25psi and a 1HD-T requires 11psi to deliver the same torque.
How is there even a question here?

Then we have the strength question marks. See another of Graeme's posts below.

Bull s***.
See the attached photos. Those are outlandish claims. Back up your answers on those torque numbers at those psi levels

"The differences are the higher efficiency requiring less fuel and less air combined

with the more robust cylinders surviving fine at a lower air/fuel ratio (higher fuel/air ratio) and higher EGT."

Yes this is right, it's known already. The whole thing is what can we do performance wise with our 1hz over buying a 1hdt

As stated before there are people who don't want to buy the 1hd-t and are willing to work with their 1hz

 

[Dougal]

Bull ****.
See the attached photos. Those are outlandish claims. Back up your answers on those torque numbers at those psi levels

They aren't outlandish claims, they are projections using factory BSFC numbers.

You've called bull****, then posted up graphs from AXT showing less torque and unspecified boost.
Which makes no sense on any level. What are you trying to say?

Yes this is right, it's known already. The whole thing is what can we do performance wise with our 1hz over buying a 1hdt

What are you actually trying to do?
Do you have a power or torque goal or do you just want to run 25psi boost?

 

[ForealBoreal]

They aren't outlandish claims, they are projections using factory BSFC numbers.

You've called bull****, then posted up graphs from AXT showing less torque and unspecified boost.
Which makes no sense on any level. What are you trying to say?

What are you actually trying to do?
Do you have a power or torque goal or do you just want to run 25psi boost?

Well they seem a bit exagerated saying a stock 1hd-t produces more overall torque in comparison to a 1hz boosting 24psi with fuel to suit. Bull fxxxing s***.

AXT Graphs were just an example.
the aftermarket turbo kits supply wastegated turbo's ranging from the 7-10lb boost range. Lets go on the generous side of things and say 10lbs boost like a stock 1hd-t. Yes different turbos are being used. (I'll get into this in a second)
The boosted 1hz is just as power full at that boost level even using the stock ct26 turbo in comparison to the 1hd-t.

The 1hd-t since being an DI diesel, boost comp fitted is a more efficient engine in terms of fuel usage.
Even that is debatable because on paper the DI diesel is better suited but in reality comparing my 1HZ and my 1HD-T they get pretty much the same fuel economy.... I expect that I may even do better once I fit the boost compensator.

Heck Graeme even told me that my turbo 1hz will be more powerful than 1hd-t at similar boost levels....
I don't have a dyno to post up numbers but running around with the stock pump fueling boosting 14.5lbs felt just as quick as my old truck's 1hd-t. Now with the fuel turned up its definitely quicker, pulls way harder than the old truck.

So what am I trying to do? Get information and data on what these engines can take in terms of boost pressures, safe AFRS and EGTs while laying down some HP and Torque data. That is really what my main goal is. We know what the reliability running 15lbs of boost with the pump maxed out give you. I am curious to find out what is above that and if it is reliable if the right parameters are in place for the 1HZ. People are doing it as we speak. I would love to find out more about it as it interests me. I may even take my 1HZ there one day. Right now I have a few other things to do before I hit that point. But I am interested in the power while still having good reliability. I believe this is fully possible. 24psi one day, who knows, my pump stops fueling well before then we will see where I am at with mods and maintenance down the road.

As I said a few times before:

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WILLING TO PLAY WITH THE 1HZ PERFORMANCE WISE VS GETTING A 1HD-T AND DOING THE SAME.

These things can come close if not better in certain situations to a 1hd-t.

 

[Dougal]

Well they seem a bit exagerated saying a stock 1hd-t produces more overall torque in comparison to a 1hz boosting 24psi with fuel to suit. Bull ****ing ****.

Whining because the figures don't suit your agenda?

Suggest you either do the maths yourself or build your own engine and prove yourself wrong that way.

Many aftermarket turbod 1HZ's have blown up. Yes you can get similar power to a 1HD-T with similar boost. But only by pushing EGT's through the roof. The problems are well documented with these "temporary tunes".

Boost compensators do nothing for efficiency. They are a pollution control device.
Direct injection engines are more efficient in not only fuel usage, but air usage. You seem to have missed this point completely. This is why the 1HD-T can produce the same torque on 11psi that the 1HZ requires 25psi for.
I have even been really kind to the 1HZ and given it 270 g/kwh BSFC. Meaning the 1HZ needs to pump ~10% more air for the inefficient combustion and pump another 15% for the leaner A/F ratio.
Totally this means it requires 25% more air for the same torque. Hence 11psi vs 25psi.
Only in Waynes world does a 1HZ and 1HD-T get comparable fuel economy. Or is it Waynes world where the 1HZ beats everything?
The rest of the world (and Toyota's own figures) show about 2 litres/100km benefit to the 1HD-T.

Heck Graeme even told me that my turbo 1hz will be more powerful than 1hd-t at similar boost levels....

You'd better back that one up with a solid quote.

So what am I trying to do? Get information and data on what these engines can take in terms of boost pressures, safe AFRS and EGTs while laying down some HP and Torque data.

Graeme has presented safe A/F ratios, I've just presented the data for torque levels using those A/F ratios at 2,500rpm. You dismissed them as bull**** because you don't understand the problems and limitations.

So far you seem to know more than everyone else. So go ahead, prove us wrong.

 

[daboheme]

Come now Dougal. A 1HZ at 100kmph and 1HD-T at 120kmph do get same fuel consumption.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Whining because the figures don't suit your agenda?

Suggest you either do the maths yourself or build your own engine and prove yourself wrong that way.

Many aftermarket turbod 1HZ's have blown up. Yes you can get similar power to a 1HD-T with similar boost. But only by pushing EGT's through the roof. The problems are well documented with these "temporary tunes".

Boost compensator do nothing for efficiency. They are a pollution control device.
Direct injection engines are more efficient in not only fuel usage, but air usage. You seem to have missed this point completely. This is why the 1HD-T can produce the same torque on 11psi that the 1HZ requires 25psi for.
I have even been really kind to the 1HZ and given it 270 g/kwh BSFC. Meaning the 1HZ needs to pump ~10% more air for the inefficient combustion and pump another 15% for the leaner A/F ratio.
Totally this means it requires 25% more air for the same torque. Hence 11psi vs 25psi.
Only in Waynes world does a 1HZ and 1HD-T get comparable fuel economy. Or is it Waynes world where the 1HZ beats everything?
The rest of the world (and Toyota's own figures) show about 2 litres/100km benefit to the 1HD-T.

You'd better back that one up with a solid quote.

Graeme has presented safe A/F ratios, I've just presented the data for torque levels using those A/F ratios at 2,500rpm. You dismissed them as bull**** because you don't understand the problems and limitations.

So far you seem to know more than everyone else. So go ahead, prove us wrong.

You can tune these engines to have considerable power while running still safe EGTs and maintaining reliability. You just can't wrap your head around it.

The boost comp will help with a fuel ramp and in theory (just like with everything that you say) should give better fuel economy. There are a few guys on here that have proven this.

I get pretty darn similar results to my old 1hd-t with the stock 1hz. I would say from my experience doing long distance highway trips I got the same fuel economy, some tanks better, some tanks worse. Lots of factors come into play. For long trips I would say dame well identical if you follow the speed limit and your not out there to pass everyone in sight. I driven a 1hz for the last two years on a daily basis and have driven a 1hd-t long enough to know this.... Other people other than Wayne experience it too.

Show me some hard dyno results proving on the same dyno running the same turbo with the same boost level and safe tune where this is the case.
My exact turbo on my truck if we are to throw it on a 1hd-t right now would not out torque @ 11lbs of boost a 1HZ running say even 20lbs. You said even 24lbs couldn't. Prove me wrong I am listening.

Here is a screen shot of an email Graeme sent me.

Not to mention just about every 1hz turbo kit out there states that they outperform at what is know to be stock 1hd-t boost levels or less.
Mike Vine just as an example. Non intercooled running 10lbs boost...
http://www.mikevineturbochargers.com.au/4installation_diesel.html
Can't seem to find a stock 1hd-t dyno'd for hp and torque at the wheels.
If you do post it up....

This pissing match is pretty lame. I would rather talk about 1HZ TURBOS than 1HD-Ts as this thread is getting out of hand. There is a lack of 1HZ performance data out there and a s*** ton of 1hd-t stuff.

 

[sailor]

I would expect that your 77 being 5 gear, part time and possibly lighter than your auto, full time HDJ81 would make a 'seat of the pants' comparison somewhat suspect? The 81 auto eats a lot of power alone...

( Dont s*** all over me now lol)

 

[ForealBoreal]

I would expect that your 77 being 5 gear, part time and possibly lighter than your auto, full time HDJ81 would make a 'seat of the pants' comparison somewhat suspect? The 81 auto eats a lot of power alone...

( Dont s*** all over me now lol)

Totally true and no I have no intention s***ting on you.
Did get to drive in a part time 80 for a test drive after we put a part time in it.
Still had the auto we just fitted the part time kit. Was an auto.
Would love to compare it to a h151 part time hdj81.
Even if the 81 is quicker and better (which I am sure it is, not doubting it) you can't completely write the 1hz off because its idi

 

[gerg]

Dougal is right on with the 3B and boost. I havent really accomplished much without increaseing the fuel unfortunately. Going from 7m to 10mm plungers is pretty close to twice the fuel actually. For what it is I do find the 3B to be quite a forgiving engine, but Im pretty sure doubling the fuel will find the weak link. The 1hdt and hz bennifit from much beter designed intake features... swirl ports, an actaul intake manifold, no throttle plate. In short a 3B has to push way more boost just to get the air into the cylinder, and that steals hp and lowers the VE. Its a bad relationship to have in an enigne. Its an engine thats really good for running a refrigerator on a shipping container or crawling in the bush for years on end with pretty much no maintance, but a race horse it is not. I sill love it though.

g

 

[Dougal]

You can tune these engines to have considerable power while running still safe EGTs and maintaining reliability. You just can't wrap your head around it.

Evidence please.

The boost comp will help with a fuel ramp and in theory (just like with everything that you say) should give better fuel economy. There are a few guys on here that have proven this.

Evidence please.
Boost compensators reduce fuel off-boost. That is all they do. For them to improve economy, you must have prior been blowing black smoke everywhere by driving it hard off-boost.

I get pretty darn similar results to my old 1hd-t with the stock 1hz. I would say from my experience doing long distance highway trips I got the same fuel economy, some tanks better, some tanks worse. Lots of factors come into play. For long trips I would say dame well identical if you follow the speed limit and your not out there to pass everyone in sight. I driven a 1hz for the last two years on a daily basis and have driven a 1hd-t long enough to know this.... Other people other than Wayne experience it too.

So just like Wayne, you're taking two very different vehicles with different engines and then directly comparing fuel economy numbers?

Toyota put both the 1HZ and the 1HD-T in the same 80 series. The 1HZ's used 2 litres/100km more in the standardised fuel consumption tests.

My exact turbo on my truck if we are to throw it on a 1hd-t right now would not out torque @ 11lbs of boost a 1HZ running say even 20lbs. You said even 24lbs couldn't. Prove me wrong I am listening.

What are you basing this claim on? Your butt-dyno, your previous experience running 20-24psi on a 1HZ or your calculations using Toyotas own torque, boost and fuel injection volume figures?

Here is a screen shot of an email Graeme sent me.

Now that's a serious mis-read and mis-quote by you. Graeme is talking 1HZ with one of his turbos compared to stock HD-T.
Notice what Graeme said in the same email about fuel economy.

Not to mention just about every 1hz turbo kit out there states that they outperform at what is know to be stock 1hd-t boost levels or less.
Mike Vine just as an example. Non intercooled running 10lbs boost...
http://www.mikevineturbochargers.com.au/4installation_diesel.html
Can't seem to find a stock 1hd-t dyno'd for hp and torque at the wheels.
If you do post it up....

Yeah, lets bring marketing claims into it also. Now you've provided more graphs with no direct comparison. Even if you did find 2wd 80 series dyno charts (majority of HD-T's are full-time 4wd), dyno variability will make the results useless for direct comparison.

This pissing match is pretty lame. I would rather talk about 1HZ TURBOS than 1HD-Ts as this thread is getting out of hand. There is a lack of 1HZ performance data out there and a **** ton of 1hd-t stuff.

So far, it's just been denial from your end. You want to be told it'll be awesome, better than a 1HD-T etc and can't handle being told anything else.
Why do you think there is no 1HZ performance data out there? Could it possibly be completely unsuited to being a performance engine?

It's like a MPG discussion with Wayne.

 

[Wheelingnoob]

Man I'm glad you kept this out of my thread lol.

Everything I have seen and read state that DI is 10-20% more efficent.

 

[crushers]

actual real world results might differ from book experience ...

 

[TheBigBoy]

A boost compensator does not just reduce fuel off boost. To get a 1HZT to the correct afr's at max boost (say 12psi) you will need to increase the fuel. This will cause it to run extremely rich down low off the line (pre and low boost until the air catches up LINEAR). With a fast spooling turbo, this isnt such a bad thing. To get a DT to go the same, you will need to run the same fuel at the same possition. A compensator reduces the very rich mixture down low (pre-low boost area) increasing eco.

A HZT will not get better eco than a DT. But this comes back to the tune and afr's. A compensated HZT will help. And as heat is governing factor for HP. 1 is a designed and purpose build turbo engine. 1 is not. The HZT will always be slightly behind in all aspects due to design. There are alot of other factors to consider. If anyone can get it over the line, its Graeme.

 

[Dougal]

Man I'm glad you kept this out of my thread lol.

Everything I have seen and read state that DI is 10-20% more efficent.

Isuzu have the 4BD2T to within 5% of the 4BD1T, but that's because the 2T is intercooled and the 1T isn't. I'd love to get some efficiency numbers for an intercooled 4BD1T.

actual real world results might differ from book experience ...

Indeed. Especially the Crushers fiction section.

A boost compensator does not just reduce fuel off boost. To get a 1HZT to the correct afr's at max boost (say 12psi) you will need to increase the fuel. This will cause it to run extremely rich down low off the line (pre and low boost until the air catches up LINEAR). With a fast spooling turbo, this isnt such a bad thing. To get a DT to go the same, you will need to run the same fuel at the same possition. A compensator reduces the very rich mixture down low (pre-low boost area) increasing eco.

Yep, it does that by restricting fuel delivery off-boost. Economy increase only comes from not blowing black smoke.

A HZT will not get better eco than a DT. But this comes back to the tune and afr's. A compensated HZT will help. And as heat is governing factor for HP. 1 is a designed and purpose build turbo engine. 1 is not. The HZT will always be slightly behind in all aspects due to design. There are alot of other factors to consider. If anyone can get it over the line, its Graeme.

The problem is, IDI's lose more combustion heat through the head. This is energy from burnt fuel which is shed through the cooling system instead of pushing pistons down and helping you drive.
No amount of tuning or boost compensation can over-come this problem.
IDI's do have one advantage over Di and that is better combustion at higher rpm. If you want to run 5000-6000rpm a specially built IDI engine might have a benefit there. But I'd rather run a Di at 4000rpm in a higher gear.

Graeme is the only one I'd consider with the experience and motivation to build a reliable performance 1HZ. But I suspect he's also got bigger fish to fry. Ones that taste far better.

 

[gbentink]

Wow what a thread lol. Its common knowledge many a aftermarket 1HZ-T has met with a bad ending. Especially the later 1HZ (after injectors, pre com and piston change). I propose that this is largely the low AFR they run. Often 16:1 I have measured on DTS kit installs.

The best you will see from a 1HZ efficiency wise would be around 245gm/kWh. The best you will see from a 1HDT will be ~ 215.

We have an 1HZT 80 series in town here (1HDT rods, ceramic coated pistons, 11mm pump) with 132kW at wheels at 19:1, 25psi with front mount intercooler, std air box. It has a Grunter turbo on it.

Its being changed to Bad Boy 2, 30+psi, custom intake manifold, custom air box. 12mm pump from Diesel Central also with 150cc/1000strokes @ 3600 engine rpm. It should do 170-200kW at wheels.

Will it last....? The only thing I'm concerned about is piston and to a lesser extent pre com cracking.

Efficiency on an IDI is typically ~ 18-20:1. Either side of that becomes lower. The optimum AFR does depend on BMEP and turbo efficiency and inter cooling efficiency.

You may aim for a higher AFR for engine longevity such as in a 1HZ with std pistons. It will cost you some efficiency however.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Evidence please.

What are you basing this claim on? Your butt-dyno, your previous experience running 20-24psi on a 1HZ or your calculations using Toyotas own torque, boost and fuel injection volume figures?

Now that's a serious mis-read and mis-quote by you. Graeme is talking 1HZ with one of his turbos compared to stock HD-T.
Notice what Graeme said in the same email about fuel economy.

Yeah, lets bring marketing claims into it also. Now you've provided more graphs with no direct comparison. Even if you did find 2wd 80 series dyno charts (majority of HD-T's are full-time 4wd), dyno variability will make the results useless for direct comparison.

So far, it's just been denial from your end. You want to be told it'll be awesome, better than a 1HD-T etc and can't handle being told anything else.
Why do you think there is no 1HZ performance data out there? Could it possibly be completely unsuited to being a performance engine?

It's like a MPG discussion with Wayne.

I don't have experience running 20-24psi of boost in my 1hz. That is why I am here....

Didn't you say that the stock 1hd-t at 11psi will outperform the 1hz running 24lbs boost? Yes he is talking about running the same stock boost pressures as the 1hd-t even with one of his turbos. Other people talk about getting better hp and torque results running 1hd-t boost levels on their 1hz turbos with running safe temperatures....

Marketing claims, well it seems pretty universal what people are coming out with turboing these trucks with the generic kits of the past...

I think the lack of data out there for turboing 1hz's is the fact that its a costly process to turbo a truck. Not everyone is up for it. Not to mention most people listen to peoples advice for keeping it conservative. An engine is an expensive thing to blow up. So if a company warranties a product and gives specific directions on what to set their egt temperatures and boost levels to and warranty it well. Most people would assume that is safe.

gah this is painful.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Man I'm glad you kept this out of my thread lol.

Everything I have seen and read state that DI is 10-20% more efficent.

Knew it was going to be one of these. I figured I would be a decent human being and save it for here.

actual real world results might differ from book experience ...

Yeah, there are so many factors as we know with fuel economy.
Its not like we are stating outlandish claims. We have both driven these vehicles and know what they are capable of.

A boost compensator does not just reduce fuel off boost. To get a 1HZT to the correct afr's at max boost (say 12psi) you will need to increase the fuel. This will cause it to run extremely rich down low off the line (pre and low boost until the air catches up LINEAR). With a fast spooling turbo, this isnt such a bad thing. To get a DT to go the same, you will need to run the same fuel at the same possition. A compensator reduces the very rich mixture down low (pre-low boost area) increasing eco.

A HZT will not get better eco than a DT. But this comes back to the tune and afr's. A compensated HZT will help. And as heat is governing factor for HP. 1 is a designed and purpose build turbo engine. 1 is not. The HZT will always be slightly behind in all aspects due to design. There are alot of other factors to consider. If anyone can get it over the line, its Graeme.

Yes thanks for explaining that

 

[ForealBoreal]

Graeme thank you for posting that info.

I think a lot of people are curious to here what these engines can handle.
I have seen a few of your dyno sheets running 14lbs and 20lbs.
This is new info and cool to hear.

Any higher hp 1hz results are appreciated.

 

[Dougal]

I don't have experience running 20-24psi of boost in my 1hz. That is why I am here....

So neither of us have 1HZ's running 24psi boost.
But I have experience and success predicting power and torque results from fuel and boost.
I have data which shows the 1HZ results are somewhat dire.

You disagree but have no data or experience to back up your strong opinion.

Didn't you say that the stock 1hd-t at 11psi will outperform the 1hz running 24lbs boost? Yes he is talking about running the same stock boost pressures as the 1hd-t even with one of his turbos. Other people talk about getting better hp and torque results running 1hd-t boost levels on their 1hz turbos with running safe temperatures....

First part correct, second part badly wrong.

Marketing claims, well it seems pretty universal what people are coming out with turboing these trucks with the generic kits of the past...

Indeed. Wholesale engine failures.

I think the lack of data out there for turboing 1hz's is the fact that its a costly process to turbo a truck. Not everyone is up for it. Not to mention most people listen to peoples advice for keeping it conservative. An engine is an expensive thing to blow up. So if a company warranties a product and gives specific directions on what to set their egt temperatures and boost levels to and warranty it well. Most people would assume that is safe.

gah this is painful.

I've not yet seen an aftermarket 1HZ turbo kit which included an EGT gauge or an engine warranty.
Most aftermarket installs are based on blind hope.

Hurry up and crank up that boost. We're waiting.

 

[ForealBoreal]

Here:

Hulsty's buddy running his 75 daily driven ute.
14lbs boost, gt2876, w2a ic, 12mm pump from a 1hd-ft dyno'd awhile back at 118rwkw.
Safe pre turbo max pyro temps.
Hes putting 20lbs into it at the moment with no issues that I have heard of...

Crushers sold his old 75 to a guy running 14lbs boost, propane injection, intercooled and its still ticking apparently.

LShobie's running 15lbs, very conservative temperatures and good HP i believe.

Another one,

147hp at the wheels (285/75R16). That was at about 15psi and EGT post turbo max of 480 degrees