jtwopark
live, eat, sleep Land Cruiser!!!
One thing I should do sooner than later is to make a shock tower brace of some sorts.
" high speed " desert in an 80 series
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I would hope that shocks that cost 4x as much would do a better job, but comparing an aluminum body 2.0 IFP shock to a remote resi 2.5 isn't really apples to apples.
It would be interesting to know what actually failed in the Fox IFP. I don't fault Fox for now warrantying them if they where installed incorrectly without enough bumpstop or something. If they extruded a seal I wonder about the gas charge pressure rate with the small gas volume with the IFP design. If there is too much oil in the shock and not enough space for the IFP, the pressure rate could increase to a point where it could extrude a seal. There are different modes of failures for sure. That is important.
As far as ride goes, either shock should be able to do the same thing if the bleeds and shim stacks are properly tuned. I wouldn't expect an off the shelf valving choice to work perfectly. Spring rate, sprung weight, driving style, etc....all are going to be different enough. Not to mention driver preferences.
I would say that full bodied J80s, especially heavy ones, are at a weight where they can benefit from a larger piston shock when the axle starts moving faster. The J80 has a decent amount of suspension travel stock, but I see a lot of people that are having to limit uptravel to fit larger tires, which is kinda like shooting yourself in the foot, especially on the rear suspension ( which is already short on uptravel ).
Cheers. I hope this topic gets into some of the technical stuff, not just a brand war. There are a lot of companies that make good quality shocks for the chassis....King, Fox, Icon, Radflo, etc. A shock is a shock, while tuning them can require a lot of what I would call 'magic', they are all pretty dang similar in the tools they have available for that tuning...bleed, valve stack, fluid velocity through the piston ports, etc. HOW the shock is tuned is way more important that what shock brand shock you have.
You're certainly at an advantage body wise being able to start from scratch. Like you said the up travel is limited on the 80 by the stock body, and going up in ride height to get up travel is a catch 22. The 80 isn't really the best package for running through the desert..... but one of the things that makes the 80 great is how good it is at so many different things. I think you could get decent desert running performance with a little tweaking and good shocks. The shocks could come from any of the brands you listed including Slee's home brand, it just depends on whoever the person is most comfortable with and if that company will setup to their specifications. Chocolate or Vanilla.
I need a much bigger garage I want to do a 3rd gen 4Runner, setup for prerunning with a 1UZ or 3UZ. lol.
I need a much bigger garage I want to do a 3rd gen 4Runner, setup for prerunning with a 1UZ or 3UZ. lol.
jtwopark
live, eat, sleep Land Cruiser!!!
I don't fault the fox either! I just broke the shocks because I knew I could. Also just wanted to know why people were giving it such good reviews. I do understand why some people like the fox 2.0 for our 80s! The ride is just very Cadillac like!..just wait for what king is working on for our 80s in the 2.0 flavor ....TBD!! a fair comparison can be performed if this happens.
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Yes. I feel very lucky not having to work around the stock body on my Hybrid. Being able to run a 40" tire with no suspension lift while keeping all the factory lock to lock steering angle is like cheating....
The J80 has some good things going for it in the suspension department. It has room in front, with stock springs, for almost an 11" travel shock. The rear suspension is set up for nearly a 10" travel shock stock. I like the modular front coil mount and bumpstop setup. This should make it very easy to shim the suspension in front to level the chassis. Everything looks well designed and pretty stout. I believe these vehicles where designed to bounce around 3rd world countries with a working like of about 300k miles. Chatting with some of the Ozy racer guys, the chassis seems to hold up pretty well.
I think what this chassis desperately needs is up-travel front ride height. The front seems to be doing ok stock. The tall rubber bumpstops leave a little to be desired for sure, but they just unbolt. One of the 1st things I am going to try on my chassis is an upgrade to a modern foam bumpstop like you would find on the rear of a modern GM truck or SUV. They are cheap, and seem to work quite well for the money. I think they have more travel and a softer initial rate vs the stock units. The rear suspension could really do with about another 1-1.5" of uptravel. I am going to have to look at that again. I think it would be fairly easy to make a bolt in upper shock mount replacement that could move things up slightly. I don't know if you could add more travel, but you could move the bias toward up instead of down. Having something like 6 up and 4 down could be a good place to start.
It should be fun to start with a stock suspension with everything else being out of the way and just about any tire size.
You still haven't told us how they failed.
I understand the desire to stick with the foam bumpstops but check out the King offerings, they built a great setup to mount in the stock location. Tough to beat.
80 Series Front Bump Stop 2.0" Kit
80 Series Front Bump Stop 2.0" Kit
What broke? That is the real question.
Comparing a $125 Fox IFP with a box stock tune to a $500 King 2.5 Resi with custom tuning and bumps isn't even in the same ballpark.
In general, shocks don't break. They will fade as temp increases. Worst case the fluid gets too hot and might cause some seal issues. If the shock physically breaks, it was generally installed wrong....too long and it destroys itself, too short and it will eventually pull the bottom out or worse. Shocks don't make good limiting straps or bumpstops. What is really too hot for a shock and what people think is too hot for a shock are two different things. Most shock oil is good to 250-300F if I remember right. Some seal packages are not good to that.
A 2.0 shock is a 2.0 shock. An IFP is going to be a little bit better than an emulsion. A remote resi shock is going to be better than something like an IFP style unit in some ways. Heck, some of the fancy 2.5 internal bypass shocks use a 2.0 piston on the shaft that is basically providing the 'bump' zone valving.
I might end up there eventually. But for $20 a corner I will start with quality foam unit. I really want to work through the suspension from stock to wild in stages. I basically get to keep the suspension stock as far as height so it will be a neat experiment.
If your navigator is doing their job....the need for bumpstops is greatly reduced. Bumpstops should not be part of the primary suspension in my opinion, if you are using them all the time you are likely over-driving the vehicle. They are a tool, they can be valuable, but they do have limitations. If your crashing the stops a lot, axle breakage will likely follow.
The king bump package is nice, but at $700 a set, I would be looking at a lot of other options. I do like the threaded body and mount for adjustments. I believe king is still using pretty much standard emulsion air shock technology in these? There are some interesting things starting to be done in bumps where they have been able to separate the gas and oil along with eliminate the high spring rate curve. Softer initial hits, more work done by the internal valving, and less ultimate spring rate to deal with as far as rebound.
There was a guy in the So Cal TLC club that ran a FZJ80 in the Baja 500 about 12 years ago. He dropped about 8K on the truck and ended up with a DNF when the upper Heim joint separated on his Bilstein coil over. The bottom line was wrong truck for that class and race.
I think the 80 series could be competitive in the old Jeepspeed type class against trucks like the Cherokee's but it is called Jeepspeed for a reason. haha.
And I think it would be a blast to setup an 80 to do this, but I think it would be even more fun to do a 4Runner like I said above.
And I think it would be a blast to setup an 80 to do this, but I think it would be even more fun to do a 4Runner like I said above.
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jtwopark
live, eat, sleep Land Cruiser!!!
Passenger side shock blew a seal and I bottomed out the 3"-5" shock rear shock because it didn't have enough up travel. I forgot to take the temp but have you ever heard a shock "hissss" before? It was my first time. Ome shocks just let go of the shaft itself from running John Bull.
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I'm sorry, but it just sounds like you beat the shocks up using them as bumps or limiting devices? No shock will hold up to that abuse forever.
That is why a vehicle that is driven at speed should have the proper length shocks, bumpstops, and limiting straps.
jtwopark
live, eat, sleep Land Cruiser!!!
Like I said I don't fault them
They were matched to the correct lift though.
They were matched to the correct lift though.
I am pretty sure that the 80-series had some wins in the mid-90s in the Dakar production class.
I haven't seen anything in the 80 series that would prevent it from being competitive in a stock or stock-mod class?
But on the other hand your bagging on them saying they didn't do their job? And basically Kings rock....
I'd like to hear some more opinions on the IFP in a properly done install. There is no reason they shouldn't work well with the right tuning Honestly, they are probably a great value that shouldn't be ignored for a lot of users. I'd like to know what the stock valving is in them also.
jtwopark
live, eat, sleep Land Cruiser!!!
Hmmm..not saying anything close to the way you are understanding what I stated.
I said I wanted to try it and I said the the 2.0 fox shocks are not the right suit for me and my use.
It's not the company or brand but just how you tune it and how one uses their shocks!
I said I wanted to try it and I said the the 2.0 fox shocks are not the right suit for me and my use.
It's not the company or brand but just how you tune it and how one uses their shocks!
I think everyone is doing a little misunderstanding.
Again the 80 has a lot of depth so the types of uses are really broad.
Jtwopark is hooked on going fast. Most users aren't. Would a 2.0 work for many, sure. Would it work for all, nope.
But can we please get back to this guy's desert running 80! Haha. I want some video of it doing 50 in the desert!
Again the 80 has a lot of depth so the types of uses are really broad.
Jtwopark is hooked on going fast. Most users aren't. Would a 2.0 work for many, sure. Would it work for all, nope.
But can we please get back to this guy's desert running 80! Haha. I want some video of it doing 50 in the desert!
Alright then, back to some tech hopefully.
I'd start with springs. Make sure you have enough free length that you are not unloading the suspension completely at full droop. I think it would be nice if the there was at least an inch or two of pre-load on the springs at full droop. This should be done with a limiting strap to be safe, and we can't forget they stretch. Beyond that, the coil can't bind on full compression. I think the typical problem with 80-series coils in the aftermarket is a lack of free length. Spring rate. In my opinion, you only need enough spring rate to hold the vehicle up at the proper ride height. I think a lot of the fancy aftermarket coils are starting to go dual rate to deal with some of these issues.
I would try and maintain as much up-travel as possible. That is probably going to mean a slightly smaller tires size on stock bodied versions? How large of a tire can fit on a completely stock body....and what can be done to make a little more room? I would likely remove the rear overload/bumpstops inside the coil, or replace them with something softer. I think with a little extra work it might be possible to raise the upper rear shock mount to add about 1-1.5" of up-travel. I doubt that is going to fly with the rear body however?
Anyone else have any ideas?
I'd start with springs. Make sure you have enough free length that you are not unloading the suspension completely at full droop. I think it would be nice if the there was at least an inch or two of pre-load on the springs at full droop. This should be done with a limiting strap to be safe, and we can't forget they stretch. Beyond that, the coil can't bind on full compression. I think the typical problem with 80-series coils in the aftermarket is a lack of free length. Spring rate. In my opinion, you only need enough spring rate to hold the vehicle up at the proper ride height. I think a lot of the fancy aftermarket coils are starting to go dual rate to deal with some of these issues.
I would try and maintain as much up-travel as possible. That is probably going to mean a slightly smaller tires size on stock bodied versions? How large of a tire can fit on a completely stock body....and what can be done to make a little more room? I would likely remove the rear overload/bumpstops inside the coil, or replace them with something softer. I think with a little extra work it might be possible to raise the upper rear shock mount to add about 1-1.5" of up-travel. I doubt that is going to fly with the rear body however?
Anyone else have any ideas?
