GX Twin Turbo or LC 250 hybrid engine (3 Viewers)

[grampswrx]

The GX has always had the larger motor compared to the 4Runner so as to not cannibalize each other too much. If you wanted to pull your boat, they want you to upgrade to the GX to get the extra tow capacity. I think they are attempting to make the same differentiation here.

That said, I would go hybrid all day long. It's hilly where I live and capturing some energy going downhill helps the mpg on the way back up.

 

[Jetboy]

Towing is important for anyone who wants to use the vehicle as an all-around SUV. It's not going to be the same type of off road first model like a Wrangler or Bronco. It's skewed significantly toward highway use and utility. And that's a good thing for many owners. Part of that is utility use. It's a truck with extra seats, owners are going to want to do truck things with it. And part of that is towing. Towing is a significantly more common use than off-roading. Probably 10:1 in terms of miles towing vs miles of dirt travel for the 4Runner and LC200 and I'd expect it to be the same for the LC250.

Not everyone is going to tow with it, but many people will. That's part of why every generation of midsize BOF SUV in the history of Toyota has offered multiple engine options. And that's the obvious answer here - just sell the damn thing with 3 engine options: T4, T4hybrid, T6. They're already being manufactured one after another on the same production line. There is zero effort required other than minor website updates. Done. Everyone's happy. But Toyota's gonna Toyota North America this one. Again.

The biggest shortcoming of the 5th gen 4Runner was the engine. It didn't have enough power to comfortable cruise on highways or to tow well and it lacked the transmission range and ratios to make the best of the underpowered engine it had. The chassis was great for towing (for the wheel base) with KDSS. Brakes are huge on the 5th gen 4R. It was the engine that was the deal breaker. It just didn't have enough power. And to be clear - it could pull at highway speed most conditions, it just couldn't do it well and it was exhausting driving at highway speed in 3rd and sometimes 2nd gear with the engine at 5k rpms. The 1GR was not well balanced or isolated. The T24A is hopefully better as far as balance and mid-rpm power. But it's only 270hp and that's at 6k rpms - even higher than the peak on the 1GR. It's going to be screaming up passes.

If it's well isolated and well balanced, it's probably an improvement over the 1GR - if not, it'll be 1GRv2.0. In the mid-range power it's a meaningful improvement, so it should be better as a lightly loaded highway cruiser and daily driver. Perfectly adequate for stock vehicle with stock tires on most roads. Unfortunately - it is also probably going to be inadequate once you ask for more from it than that. It would be significantly better for towing if it had something closer to either GM's 2.7 or Ford's 2.7 turbo output. Possibly we can get that via tuning. One big plus is that the turbo should be tunable to bump it up to maybe 300-325 engine hp with a tune. But I have no idea how complex of a task that really is with the hybrid system. It may be the case that the non-hybrid versions offer a lot more power potential if the hybrid can't easily be tuned. TBD.

I don't think payload or chassis will be an issue, but it's hard guess the weight difference between the LC250 vs GX. Without a 3rd row or the luxury interior weight, it might be pretty close to the same net curb weight. And, payload is a bit of made up number that often has no engineering relationship to towing capacity. With the GA-F chassis and 9.5" rear axle with big brakes, I wouldn't think twice about adding some airbags and putting 500-700lbs of tongue weight on it. It should handle that without breaking a sweat.

We'll learn a lot as soon as the Tacoma's start showing up.

 

[on the rocks]

Well now that everyone and their brother that went out and bought a RTT realized their bare a$$ sticking out of a tent 10' in the air @ 6am in the morning isn't the best setup, they are all running out and buying a pod style over lander trailer now for their cool new rig, especially since Toyota says they can tow 6000lbs now. The overland expo was probably 50% pod style overland trailers now unfortunately. Can't wait to start seeing them stuck out on the forest roads in CO here next year next lol. Glad I have 2 wheels and can pass easy....

My point, was it isn't about what they say it's capable of towing as it's unlikely what your situation will be and unfortunately most people see this number and think that's their number they can tow not factoring everything else in.... Most people don't realize how quick this number drops when they start factoring loaded vehicle weight in and at that point the tow capacity and HP/ TQ numbers are meaningless.

Couple good points though, it isn't intended to be a tow rig but should be a discussion and yes, you could probably tow that on a flat surface loaded to the gills with family, dogs and who knows what else but it isn't about the power of the TT4 hybrid, its about what the chassis was designed to carry load wise. I'm sure hp/tq was in the math coming up with the number. But good luck with that when there is a wreck. The first thing the insurance company will check is this safety setup, then they will dive in to see how much over you went on the payload and overloading your truck next. Just a warning from the tow police lol.

I white knuckled towing with my 80 for a lot of years and got lucky, just education to the public that may not get this. I do have a truck to tow with and 100% agree the GX or 250 shouldn't be intended to tow much of anything.

 

[Jetboy]

The GX has always had the larger motor compared to the 4Runner so as to not cannibalize each other too much. If you wanted to pull your boat, they want you to upgrade to the GX to get the extra tow capacity. I think they are attempting to make the same differentiation here.

That said, I would go hybrid all day long. It's hilly where I live and capturing some energy going downhill helps the mpg on the way back up.

It's hard make many conclusions since there's only been 2 generations of GX. One generation the GX had a larger engine option. And one it didn't. The 4th gen 4Runner had the same V8 as the GX470, LX470, and Sequoia. And Toyota offered the TRD Supercharger as a factory supported accessory on the 4Runner and I don't think they did for the GX470 so in some sense the 4Runner had more range of engines and power options out of the box.

The GX460 was also sold as a GX460 with the 1GR in other markets. (shouldn't that be a GX400?? but that's another issue )

It does look like this generation will be separated by engines and that's disappointing not to offer the options - especially when they're already in production.

 

[Navyator]

Well now that everyone and their brother that went out and bought a RTT realized their bare a$$ sticking out of a tent 10' in the air @ 6am in the morning isn't the best setup, they are all running out and buying a pod style over lander trailer now for their cool new rig, especially since Toyota says they can tow 6000lbs now. The overland expo was probably 50% pod style overland trailers now unfortunately. Can't wait to start seeing them stuck out on the forest roads in CO here next year next lol. Glad I have 2 wheels and can pass easy....

Totally agree. Same as the "tiny home" movement. Many of these are "great ideas" that unfortunately become difficult to live with or see much less use than the owner anticipated. I love the idea of a small overland trailer, but there's no way I could justify it when reality of family, house, travel, work etc... are factored in. Maybe a lot of people here do a ton of trailering, but I still think these models don't need to hit that mark. Get a Suburban, Expedition, or Tahoe if you want brute force full-size SUVs.

As for the thread, I'm actually going to wait to see the GX hybrid option pricing (assuming that still comes to market as it's expected). I really like the GX package, but two turbos and low gas mileage give me the long term $$$ heeby jeebies. We'll see.

 

[Rednexus]

My experience with my 470 is that's it's an excellent and safe tow vehicle for a 4,000#, low-profile camper. I'm at ~62% of it's rated tow capacity at that point. Saying they are a poor option for towing is not really accurate - these rigs can tow really well within their limits. I'd never load one up to 6,500# unless it was a very short, across-town tow.

 

[Knowbuddy]

This was not great but sometimes ya gotta get scrappy when a deal pops up also a day I realized I wish I still had ahc…

 

[Rednexus]

They tow great with a dialed hitch - super-stable on our steep and twisty AF roads here in the Ozarks, and good on the interstate. Weight distribution bars are key for making it work.

 

[Jetboy]

Well now that everyone and their brother that went out and bought a RTT realized their bare a$$ sticking out of a tent 10' in the air @ 6am in the morning isn't the best setup, they are all running out and buying a pod style over lander trailer now for their cool new rig, especially since Toyota says they can tow 6000lbs now. The overland expo was probably 50% pod style overland trailers now unfortunately. Can't wait to start seeing them stuck out on the forest roads in CO here next year next lol. Glad I have 2 wheels and can pass easy....

My point, was it isn't about what they say it's capable of towing as it's unlikely what your situation will be and unfortunately most people see this number and think that's their number they can tow not factoring everything else in.... Most people don't realize how quick this number drops when they start factoring loaded vehicle weight in and at that point the tow capacity and HP/ TQ numbers are meaningless.

Couple good points though, it isn't intended to be a tow rig but should be a discussion and yes, you could probably tow that on a flat surface loaded to the gills with family, dogs and who knows what else but it isn't about the power of the TT4 hybrid, its about what the chassis was designed to carry load wise. I'm sure hp/tq was in the math coming up with the number. But good luck with that when there is a wreck. The first thing the insurance company will check is this safety setup, then they will dive in to see how much over you went on the payload and overloading your truck next. Just a warning from the tow police lol.

I white knuckled towing with my 80 for a lot of years and got lucky, just education to the public that may not get this. I do have a truck to tow with and 100% agree the GX or 250 shouldn't be intended to tow much of anything.

In this case I think the chassis is far more capable than the engine. The chassis and suspension setup, brakes, and axles are similar to the non-hybrid Tundra. They should handle the loads really well I'd think. The only thing missing is the engine. I hope I'm proven wrong and the hybrid system can moderate the power delivery enough to make it livable for towing larger trailers with 70-80sf frontal areas like full size or near full size travel trailers. I'd say 4-5klbs but it's really not the weight, it's the wind drag that is the main issue. 5-6k lbs in a dump trailer was not an issue at all in my 5th gen 4Runner. 5k lbs of giant parachute was pretty hard work for the little v6.

The small trailers really are incredibly convenient for car camping we now like to call "overlanding." I built one in around 2016 and sold it in 2021. Was fantastic. We spent hundreds of nights in it. It's a tent on wheels and it makes camping so much faster/easier. You don't have to haul all your s*** around in a daily driver, don't have to unload it and re-load every time. You can camp on basically any surface much like a RTT, but you can also go to hard-side only areas where the bears are. But they also fit in small national park campgrounds and can stick just about anywhere on fire roads you can go. And you don't have to tear down camp every time you want to go do something. I prefer it hands down over the work of packing for tent camping, a campervan, or trying to sleep in a 4Runner.

Living in Alaska I see quite a few of the Unimog/Man/Iveco trucks and I can't help but think those are probably the worst possible way to do this. They're terrible to drive long distances. Not only are they rough riding, they're so noisy I frequently see the people driving them wearing aviation headsets just to manage the noise and talk to each other. They never go off the highway very far if at all, and they wouldn't stand a chance of really going anywhere here because of the weight vs the soft terrain and size. Terrible mileage. And they're expensive. If I was to choose the worst vehicle I could - that would be it. I can only imagine that they're doing it to try to try to generate interest on the web. It's funny watching them try so hard to make places you can drive in any subaru look like challenging overland expeditions in the cringe worth rolling infomercials.

I can only imagine how overrun Colorado already is with them.

 

[elbarto]

The biggest shortcoming of the 5th gen 4Runner was the engine. It didn't have enough power to comfortable cruise on highways or to tow well and it lacked the transmission range and ratios to make the best of the underpowered engine it had.

Damn don’t let the 4Runner stans read that. They think the 1GR gods greatest gift. Its reliable but it’s underpowered and inefficient.

…
My Ram 2500 Power Wagon is rated at 10,500 lbs towing, limited by the payload capacity, which is limited by the GVWR, which is reduced due to the offroad specific suspension. But the chassis, brakes, engine, trans are all more than up to the task. I’ll probably find myself towing more with the LC since it doesn’t have a truck bed. 6000 should be more than enough for incidental runs for landscaping materials, trash dump runs, construction materials, moving, etc.

 

[Land Caesar]

I'm always surprise how much talk of towing there is on this forum. Obviously it's important to a good contingent of folks here, but I don't know that I've ever seen an 80 or 100 series on the road towing anything of serious weight. Actually, I almost only see trucks exclusively towing larger trailers, so I'm somewhat surprised to hear that tow rating is a significant factor for anyone considering this size SUV in the first place. I guess I feel "if you want to tow, get a full size truck and stop talking about the LC 250 / GX". It'd be like me being upset it's 0-60 time isn't under 5 seconds... well, that's not what it's intended for.

You can criticize anything on personal preference, but I think a lot of these threads fail to discuss is "how will it meet the demands for which it is intended" vice just complaining it's not something else. It outperforms the Bronco, Wrang/Glad/Cherokee, and 4 Runner in towing which are some main competitors to the LC Prado. Why are we upset about these numbers again?

Spot on man

 

[Land Caesar]

The 6,000# rating is similar to the 6,500# rating on a 120/150. Meaning it can probably comortably tow a 4,000# trailer, and be a chore to tow much more with other than in a pinch. The early 120's only had 235 HP with this tow rating. Power should really not be an issue, just don't expect to win any races towing with it.

Many 120/150 platform folks do tow 5,000-6,000# trailers all of the time. I tow a 4,000# (loaded) low-profile camping trailer with a family of 4 and bikes on the roof rack. It does just fine and we've done multiple 700 mile days with it. I personally think that 5,000#+ would be an exhausting to tow with a smaller, short-wheelbase SUV.

5,000 no problem

It’s dragging the wind resistance of a tall camper or enclosed cargo trailer that will be a challenge

 

[Land Caesar]

Be careful with this number even if accurate. I'm surprised Toyota didn't just leave the hitch off like they did in the 90's, it has to make bringing a vehicle to the market much more challenging, especially a 5 seater.
You figure they ran this number with a standard 150lb person driving and NOTHING MORE. With that said a 6000lb trailer and a generous 15% tongue weight is 900lbs payload, 12% is more standard @720lbs (I have yet to see them list a payload number). Most family's will have more than this loaded before even hooking up their trailer. To come anywhere near this and be legal, you'll be loading you gear and family all in the trailer lol. This number is likely also based on a as basic as you can get 1958 with zero options.

6k by manufacturer.

80% is usually best to stay around

 

[Jetboy]

If it isn't better than a 4Runner - why buy it? You can already get a 4Runner with 270hp, a full cargo area, and KDSS for ~$40k. Presumably there will be another generation of 4Runner pretty soon. It's gotta do something for the extra $20k. Better MPG is great. Is it worth $20k? I'm not sure.

 

[Knowbuddy]

If it isn't better than a 4Runner - why buy it? You can already get a 4Runner with 270hp, a full cargo area, and KDSS for ~$40k. Presumably there will be another generation of 4Runner pretty soon. It's gotta do something for the extra $20k. Better MPG is great. Is it worth $20k? I'm not sure.

$47,840 Is how much a 2023 4Runner Trd off-road with kdss costs. That is assuming cloth seats to be equal. So you’re a little high on $20k. Maybe $8-10k.

 

[Jetboy]

I haven't looked in a while. I'm seeing ~$5-6k off MSRP on TRD OR 4runners on cargurus as the best advertised prices. So realisticly $43k you could probably buy one.

Who knows what the next generation of 4R brings though. Probably a price increase if nothing else.

 

[Land Caesar]

$43,400 today…. I got a price on a base model 2024 sr5 4funner

About 270 hp

Magnuson supercharger is $4,000

Install around $3,200 from my Dealership

Plus 80hp and still have factory warranty

Yet 16-18mpg

Or….
Similar price spent next year…. Add $6,000 (Relationship with dealer) and get the 325 hp hybrid 250 , though however much better mpg

10-12years of fuel!!!! Plus increased cost per gallon

Saving of 17mpg - 25mpg

Also 250 had enhanced off-road performance vehicle attributes.

So….Ya Probably worth it

 

[Knowbuddy]

I haven't looked in a while. I'm seeing ~$5-6k off MSRP on TRD OR 4runners on cargurus as the best advertised prices. So realisticly $43k you could probably buy one.

Who knows what the next generation of 4R brings though. Probably a price increase if nothing else.

All different variables. But realistically you could probably get a discount on the new 250 Land Cruiser after being sold 2 decades of the same engine and underpinnings. I bought a trd off-road in 2016 with kdss, and the upgraded fake leather interior brand new for $35k. It’s all relative.

 

[mjosoba]

I’d take the GX550 over the LC250 any day. Just my $.02.

 

[Land Caesar]

I’d take the GX550 over the LC250 any day. Just my $.02.

Expand on that.

Why