FINALLY Got To Put My 200 Through It’s Paces Offroad! Pros, Cons, and Questions (1 Viewer)

[Boston Mangler]

After getting majority of major work done, I was finally able to put the Egg through its paces today out at local desert that has a bit of everything, and where I’ve tested and tuned previous vehicles.

2010 LC W/KDSS
Bilstien 6100/5160 (3rd clip)
Cooper 33s (E rated)
1” Spacers
Aired Down to 25psi (once Offroad)
Maybe 200lbs over stock weight

Overall Super Happy and Impressed, but some changes definitely have to be made!

BACKGROUND:
Been at this 20 years, raced Baja1000 in a truck and on a Moto, driven/rode to Arctic Circle on both a moto and a Tundra, raced Offroad motos 15 years (hare scrambles and hare and hounds) and probably 2 dozen track days on various superbikes, and I’ll ballpark 50k dirt miles in Baja in an 80, 100, Tundra and motos
^^ All that to say, I know what a difference a DIALED suspension makes, and sometimes it takes several tries to get “RIGHT”

RIDE OUT:
Twisty mountainous roads with lots of elevation change. Once Again, baffled by how good a truck this big handles those twisties so dang smooth with zero sway and completely confident footing. KDSS far exceeds expectations here.

SAND AND DUNES:
ATRAC is amazing, I was quickly amazed how capable the truck is in the soft stuff without even locking center diff. Many of the things we did today required 4wd and some skinny pedal magic in the Tundra, LC breezed through it all with ease.

STEEP SLIPPERY LOOSE ROCK SLOPE:
Crawl mode made HORRENDOUS noises so I backed off. Friend in brand new 4runner did same thing, same horrible noises. He used his rear elocker and climbed up with ease. I used 4lo (no center diff lock) and climbed it with an ease also, I was very impressed and pleased with this, it was gnarly! After getting home and googling, I am NOW aware, crawl noises are “normal”. Yeah…. I don’t see myself using that much, if at all, ever again. May be “normal” but my brain will never accept my truck making that much horrible noise when climbing something, it WAS THAT bad.

MODERATE STEEP LOOSE SAND SLOPE:
Climbed up with ease in 4H, no center diff lock. Tundra definitely needed 4wd and skinny pedal magic

SLOW SPEED ARTICULATION:
Anyone that’s been to Ocotillo has played on the spiney medium pack rollers. This is where atrac impressed the hell out of me and the truck just goes, very little, if any slip, and articulates and conforms like a pretzel. Minimal effort was needed, and we had a blast doing this for a couple hours.

ARTICULATION:
Super happy and impressed, zero rub

WASHBOARD/FIRE ROAD:
We were riding on cloud 9 until it was time to hit the rocky washboards and dirt fire road. BAD!!!!
I’m aware KDSS kicks on around 12mph or so, and that Bilsteins have digressive valving versus linear.
But…Anything between 10mph and about 45mph was absolutely horrible, almost to the point of unbearable. Above 45mph or so, everything smoothed out and seemed to break the resonate frequencies and was a pleasure to drive and smooth and stable. We tried this on 3 different washboards in 3 different areas, and got almost the same results. 10-45mph (where majority of my type of driving will occur) was miserable but then smoothed out. I’ve had several other vehicles in various states of modifications on the same roads, and never had this issue, it was BAD!

QUESTION: Is this the KDSS, the Digressively Valved Bilsteins, or a combo of both?

HIGH SUSTAINED SPEED OFFROAD:
Was able to do a few 5-10 minute runs of sustained 50mph washboard travel and it handled it with ease and passed the touch test. One old school racer test is 5-10 minutes of washboard and jump out and grab the shock, if you burn your hand, you need a bigger shock. Simple concept. Bilsteins were warm, but not “hot” so that’s a win! Was honestly surprised.

RIDE HOME:
Same twisty roads, smooth as butter, no new creeks, leaks or rattles, drives straight as an arrow. A good day!

To Recap:
Beat Bajesus out of truck, love everything about it other than washboard/fireroads at moderate speeds

Any insights, comments or middle finger emojis are welcome, especially from KDSS equipped LC owners that run lots of washboards and fireroads and have done so in other vehicles

 

[Boston Mangler]

Per Intraweb Rules, Some Poser Pics:

Buddy had his head up his ass, so no action pics

 

[dudemancool1904]

nice dude, what a beautiful morning to go out.
You think the coopers had something to do with the washboard?
I bombed up and back proctor valley road all the time with stock G056s and I could do 50mph all day! It was seriously fun! Yet when I switched to discoverers that road became unbearable. Even aired down to 25 I was still begging for mercy.

 

[Boston Mangler]

nice dude, what a beautiful morning to go out.
You think the coopers had something to do with the washboard?
I bombed up and back proctor valley road all the time with stock G056s and I could do 50mph all day! It was seriously fun! Yet when I switched to discoverers that road became unbearable. Even aired down to 25 I was still begging for mercy.

Yeah, we left SD at 4am and were at trailhead airing down as the sun was coming up. Was PERFECT!!!

We finished up around noon and the wind was picking up BAD! Got super lucky with timing.

Coopers MIGHT be the issue, but after seeing how bad mine was, I drove friends brand new (stock) 4Runner on Nitto G3 (C Rated) dropped down to 25psi also, and it was just as harsh.

His has KDSS also, so I’m thinking that might be part of it? No idea honestly

But they do make a doohickey gizmo that he can disable his. Ours you can’t, totally different system

 

[Sandroad]

I’ll take a WAG the washboard problem is associated with the tire/shock combo. I don’t think it’s related to the KDSS, at least based on my experience. Keep dialing!

 

[DRCocaCola]

The KDSS should have been able to handle the rocky washboard pretty easily. I'd look elsewhere for the problem. Worst road I've ever driven on I was in my 2015 LC200. The road was around 30 miles of baby heads in AZ, leading down to Sheep's Bridge and the KDSS was amazing. I was able to go 35 to 45 mph most of the way and the KDSS ate it up although I did find a leak in one of the little KDSS shock absorbers not long after returning home, I presume from that road. I was on Falken AT3W e-rated tires on Rock Warriors aired down to about 20 psi.

 

[OregonLC]

Can't speak to the 200 but I have 5160s on The Mule and they're not to my liking. On long movement's they're great but on the small choppy stuff they're way too firm. The Mule is a spare/kid car so I'm not going to replace them, though if kid 1 decides he want's to wheel it I'm sure the shocks will need to change. I've listened to a number of the Bilstein 'Shock Talk' podcasts and do appreciate their quality and engineering approach. It's just not the ride I find acceptable. Not saying this is what's going on with your 200, just my experience on the 100. On a previous 100 I had Radflo and those were butter (also progressive). Though I've also read several posts here where operators like the 6112/5160 combo on the 200.

My 2013 200 has CDCVs and that combo is really great. I believe the Icons are digressive, so I don't think it's necessarily a digressive vs. progressive thing, more on the line of having the right valving and spring rate for your build. Except for the sliders it looks like you have a pretty light truck and I suspect (lack of) weight is a contributing factor.

Also, 25 might be at the edge of comfort even though numerically it's a much lower number than your highway pressure. With my AT4W there's a big difference between 25 and 20. I'd try maybe 22 and then 20 to see if that remedies the problem.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Can't speak to the 200 but I have 5160s on The Mule and they're not to my liking. On long movement's they're great but on the small choppy stuff they're way too firm. The Mule is a spare/kid car so I'm not going to replace them, though if kid 1 decides he want's to wheel it I'm sure the shocks will need to change. I've listened to a number of the Bilstein 'Shock Talk' podcasts and do appreciate their quality and engineering approach. It's just not the ride I find acceptable. Not saying this is what's going on with your 200, just my experience on the 100. On a previous 100 I had Radflo and those were butter (also progressive). Though I've also read several posts here where operators like the 6112/5160 combo on the 200.

My 2013 200 has CDCVs and that combo is really great. I believe the Icons are digressive, so I don't think it's necessarily a digressive vs. progressive thing, more on the line of having the right valving and spring rate for your build. Except for the sliders it looks like you have a pretty light truck and I suspect (lack of) weight is a contributing factor.

Also, 25 might be at the edge of comfort even though numerically it's a much lower number than your highway pressure. With my AT4W there's a big difference between 25 and 20. I'd try maybe 22 and then 20 to see if that remedies the problem.

Good info! Thanks for sharing!

Yeah, Bilstein build quality is hands down the best I’ve ever used, but yeah…

The rears seem ok, not horrible, it’s more the fronts, it’s HORRENDOUS between 10-40mph on the washboards

Valid point on the weight, but for whatever it’s worth, Bilsteins claim this is for a stock vehicle

Will definitely play with pressure a bit more, but I also don’t want the tires doing that much of the suspension work.

I know it ALL plays a factor, but if the tires are doing most of the suspension work, that’s a band aid, and could likely cause overheating/wear if ran that low for lengths of time at speed

Will be a lot more trial and error, that’s for sure

Thanks

 

[OregonLC]

Good info! Thanks for sharing!

Yeah, Bilstein build quality is hands down the best I’ve ever used, but yeah…

The rears seem ok, not horrible, it’s more the fronts, it’s HORRENDOUS between 10-40mph on the washboards

Valid point on the weight, but for whatever it’s worth, Bilsteins claim this is for a stock vehicle

Will definitely play with pressure a bit more, but I also don’t want the tires doing that much of the suspension work.

I know it ALL plays a factor, but if the tires are doing most of the suspension work, that’s a band aid, and could likely cause overheating/wear if ran that low for lengths of time at speed

Will be a lot more trial and error, that’s for sure

Thanks

The front is exactly where the problem is felt on the 100 as well. I briefly had 5160s on the back of the 2013 and they were fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about heat damage at 20 psi on a 33 in your truck. In the 9,000 lbs Ram I frequently left central Oregon winter at 30 psi, not airing up until 180 miles later in Portland, including 65mph highway time. Not saying this is best practice, but after three years and 45k miles there was still 11/32 tread left, even wear, and no sidewall problems. At your lower trail speeds you'll be perfectly fine at 20 and if that solves the ride quality problem then I'd do it.

Or throw a bumper, winch, and second battery up front.

 

[terrapin]

Crawl mode made HORRENDOUS noises

Does anyone know if it sounds as horrible to an observer outside the vehicle? I've used it a few times and was always worried that someone in a jeep would stop and ask me if I needed a tow

 

[dudemancool1904]

Crawl is noisy AF. I’ve read Toyota quieted it down significantly in the 250 and 300, as well as in the por runna.

 

[TeCKis300]

Awesome to your rig ready to rock and roll. Fish creek is such a fun place to open her up.

If I had to guess based on your description, looks like you're looking for more compliance. Whether that's the shock valving, spring rate, or KDSS, or very possibly all of the above, it's hard to say. Each has a contribution to smoothing out washboards.

KDSS in theses earlier generation systems doesn't exactly have a speed breakpoint as it has no clue or interface to get that. What it does have is an internal accumulator to allows some compliance between wheels while still in stiff sway bar mode. So once you run out of accumulator volume, it'll start to feel like a solid axle vehicle in some ways as its stiffness can limit independent wheel compliance. It's not until there's real cross axle articulation, i.e. warp, that it disengages.

Digressive valving means it should actually soften compression in this type of use where the piston speed is much higher than around town.

As you have mentioned the suspension feel stiff on road, probably worth trying to soften things up. What springs are you running up front? I might start with a lower spring rate.

Airing down can definitely help but I get your point about testing the suspensions ability to soak it up. 20psi is probably still reasonable and would definitely help the suspension out. Not sure I'd go much lower in higher speed running with a 275, not so much because of sidewall heat, but more pinch flats and losing a bead in turns.

 

[OregonLC]

Digressive valving means it should actually soften compression in this type of use where the piston speed is much higher than around town.

That's the theory, but I've not found that to be the case with the Bilstiens. If you get a big movement event with a lot of piston travel it opens up. Like when on big whoops or when coming over a rise at speed. But small jolts like expansion joints, rocks, or washboards feel like it's hard bolted to the frame. I think it's valving issue; they're German and tuned to sport rather than comfort. Jeep guys rave over the 8112s so it's not the design, just the application.

That's a good point on the springs. If the rear is stock and the front is Bilstein then it's likely oversprung in the front. What perch do you have them set at and how level is your truck? If they're on 4 I'd try lowering to 3 or even 2, working to acheive at least a 1" forward rake.

 

[dudemancool1904]

That's the theory, but I've not found that to be the case with the Bilstiens. If you get a big movement event with a lot of piston travel it opens up. Like when on big whoops or when coming over a rise at speed. But small jolts like expansion joints, rocks, or washboards feel like it's hard bolted to the frame. I think it's valving issue; they're German and tuned to sport rather than comfort. Jeep guys rave over the 8112s so it's not the design, just the application.

That's a good point on the springs. If the rear is stock and the front is Bilstein then it's likely oversprung in the front. What perch do you have them set at and how level is your truck? If they're on 4 I'd try lowering to 3 or even 2, working to acheive at least a 1" forward rake.

This was similar to a complaint many had 25 years ago, another life time ago, when I was just a kid and Ryan was still old. I was just picking up my second or third e30 and Bilstein sports while great on perfect tarmac felt lousy on crap roads because they were under damped on the rebound side. Everyone was switching to Ground Control coilovers with Koni shocks and 700lb linear Eibach ERS springs, yet a few of us found if you sent your Bilsteins to Poway and asked them to jack up the rebound numbers, and coupled them with a softer 350lb spring you would have the perfect compliant ride on crappy so cal rides.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Does anyone know if it sounds as horrible to an observer outside the vehicle? I've used it a few times and was always worried that someone in a jeep would stop and ask me if I needed a tow

Absolutely, when buddy activated it in his 4Runner i could clearly hear it from 50ft away

 

[Boston Mangler]

Crawl is noisy AF. I’ve read Toyota quieted it down significantly in the 250 and 300, as well as in the por runna.

Friend i was out there with has a 2024 4R and it was most definitely "not quieted down"

 

[Boston Mangler]

Awesome to your rig ready to rock and roll. Fish creek is such a fun place to open her up.

If I had to guess based on your description, looks like you're looking for more compliance. Whether that's the shock valving, spring rate, or KDSS, or very possibly all of the above, it's hard to say. Each has a contribution to smoothing out washboards.

KDSS in theses earlier generation systems doesn't exactly have a speed breakpoint as it has no clue or interface to get that. What it does have is an internal accumulator to allows some compliance between wheels while still in stiff sway bar mode. So once you run out of accumulator volume, it'll start to feel like a solid axle vehicle in some ways as its stiffness can limit independent wheel compliance. It's not until there's real cross axle articulation, i.e. warp, that it disengages.

Digressive valving means it should actually soften compression in this type of use where the piston speed is much higher than around town.

As you have mentioned the suspension feel stiff on road, probably worth trying to soften things up. What springs are you running up front? I might start with a lower spring rate.

Airing down can definitely help but I get your point about testing the suspensions ability to soak it up. 20psi is probably still reasonable and would definitely help the suspension out. Not sure I'd go much lower in higher speed running with a 275, not so much because of sidewall heat, but more pinch flats and losing a bead in turns.

Well said sir, thank you!

YES, hit the nail on the head, felt like my old solid axle 80 series... 100%. Perfect description there!

Front springs are 600lbs, softest of the 3 options.

For now, i am going to experiment with lower pressure, and see how much it all changes.

I did notice that at 25psi, the coopers still showed almost no sidewall flex

I can easily test this right down the road from me at the entrance to Marian Bear, (3/4 mile strip of "fish creek like washboard") and likely to run into @dudemancool1904

If airing down the E rated Coopers down below 20 makes that much of a difference, i would likely swap them out to the C rated G3s and then go from there for the rest of the dialing it.


Thoughts?

 

[Boston Mangler]

That's the theory, but I've not found that to be the case with the Bilstiens. If you get a big movement event with a lot of piston travel it opens up. Like when on big whoops or when coming over a rise at speed. But small jolts like expansion joints, rocks, or washboards feel like it's hard bolted to the frame. I think it's valving issue; they're German and tuned to sport rather than comfort. Jeep guys rave over the 8112s so it's not the design, just the application.

That's a good point on the springs. If the rear is stock and the front is Bilstein then it's likely oversprung in the front. What perch do you have them set at and how level is your truck? If they're on 4 I'd try lowering to 3 or even 2, working to acheive at least a 1" forward rake.

Front and rear springs are both Bilsteins and currently have 1.25" of forward rake

 

[Heckraiser]

lol I had the same experience with CRAWL. Used it once and was like "oh s***, I broke my truck!" Then I read that the noises are normal and decided CRAWL is a feature I didn't need in the first place and will probably never use again.

I don't do desert running, but 25psi seems high to me. I usually drop straight to 16 or so when I'm going to be off pavement for a while, 18psi when I had narrower 285's, but that's like 25mph top speed.

 

[Adrenaline6]

Friend i was out there with has a 2024 4R and it was most definitely "not quieted down"

The ATRAC is quieted down on the newer models. All the TNGA-F platforms have the quiet system. Yes, it's loud but if you don't get lockers, you might actually need it some time, so I would test it every so often. Just like putting it in 4lo when not using it for awhile. Clickety-clack.