FINALLY Got To Put My 200 Through It’s Paces Offroad! Pros, Cons, and Questions

[bloc]

I’d play with tire pressure as a starting point on the washboard issue. KDSS shouldn’t be a factor here.. other than the resulting speed of suspension movement, it has no way to know how fast you are going. No control systems for it on our platform, unlike the 150/250/300.

 

[OregonLC]

For now, i am going to experiment with lower pressure, and see how much it all changes. I did notice that at 25psi, the coopers still showed almost no sidewall flex

If airing down the E rated Coopers down below 20 makes that much of a difference, i would likely swap them out to the C rated G3s and then go from there for the rest of the dialing it.

Thoughts?

In my experience, sub-25 is where you need to be for compliance. 25 is a good number for winter traction of paved roads with mixed conditions where you need more support for moderate highway speeds. For your washboard example, start with 22 and see what that does then lower to 20 to see the difference and pick the better of those two.

In those 'Shock Talk' podcasts the Bilstein engineers specifically address how E rated tires will result in poor ride quality with their shocks (on stock trucks). The specifically advise against them. FWIW, I too have E rated AT3W (275/70R18) on the 100. For anything under a 3/4T truck E is overkill. For a long time I bought E's because of the sidewall puncture strength but I've yet to have it come into play.

 

[skrypj]

I had the same problem with higher speed driving on rough terrain with KDSS in my GX460. Once it locked up, but you were still traveling on rougher terrain, those thick sway bars that made the mountain road driving so good now suck on the choppy wash board and rocks.

My F150 with the swaybar disconnected and my LX both were smoother on that kind of terrain than the GX was.

 

[TeCKis300]

Tire is a big part of this equationwe

Front springs are 600lbs, softest of the 3 options.

IIRC, the stock front springs are 500 lbs / inch. I don't recall you having much installed weight so this may be an option?

Even with factory springs, the upgraded shocks and lift should keep from blowing through compression travel for performance driving. And KDSS covers roll stiffness.

I'm a sucker slinky spring rates.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Thanks all for the info!

Slammed at work lately, but will do some more testing soon and play with lower pressure and see how it goes and report back

Thanks

 

[grinchy]

Another vote for lower tire pressure here. maybe as much as 10 lbs less, depending on your sidewalks and you speed needs.

 

[rlynch356]

Re: Washboard..

Normally this is an issue of high speed rebound of the shock, combined with compression valving. Heat also plays a large part in this, shock oil gets thinner leading to more fading, etc..

I try and shoot for a light of spring rate as dictated by the weight, which allows the shock to do the work its supposed to. Shock valving will be highly dependant on weight of the truck.

 

[MRego]

Another vote for lower tire pressure here. maybe as much as 10 lbs less, depending on your sidewalks and you speed needs.

I second this.

 

[Jetboy]

FWIW - I think the issue is both KDSS and the digressive shock valving. Having had a 4R with KDSS - in the 4Runner you can disable the KDSS shutter valves in the open position with a simple electronic switch (you can pay $$ for one or make one for a few bucks). Having it selectable makes it very obvious how harsh KDSS makes the washboard and everything else offroad between 10 and 40mph. KDSS is a big part of it.

The LC system is not speed sensitive in terms of vehicle speed directly. It is a passive system that closes the valves for fluid flow based on the fluid flow rate. Presumably the valves are setup with the purpose of closing or restricting fluid flow so the system doesn't overheat. Bypassing the system on the 4Runner has consequences and one of which is likely a shorter life of the system. I don't know of any way to bypass or override the LC200 to maintain the system being in the "open" fluid flow position at higher speeds. You could remove the balls in the valves and make it always open, but that may not be a great idea.

The Bilstein's are also a bit harsh. They tend to work better as you push them harder. But they're not plush in any sense in any application I've driven them or ridden in a vehicle with them. For my Tundra that is pretty similar to the in a lot of ways - I went with fox 2.0s in the same rough price category because they have significantly lower initial damping and make for a lot softer ride on the washboard. The opposite is true for the fox 2.0 shocks - they start to run out of capability very quickly in the whoops. They don't have enough compression or rebound damping to handle larger whoops as you start to pick up the pace. One of my local trails is a 22 mile run out to a glacier on a dry river bed that is almost all 2-3 foot moguls (think wave formed sea bed roughly 2 feet tall spaced about 10 feet or 15 feet apart). Compared to the 4Runner with Fox 2.5 Factory Series - the 2.0's get out of their comfort zone quick. - all that said, the Fox 2.0 are much better on small washboard like a typical rough gravel road - they ride very well and maintain great ground contact. And for me they do job #1 of cushy highway ride really well.

If you wanted something that IMO is a nice bump up from the fox 2.0 - the C clip version of the ICON 2.5 is a really good value. And it seems like those would do significantly better in the bigger bumps but maybe still work really well for small bump compliance.

 

[skrypj]

FWIW - I think the issue is both KDSS and the digressive shock valving. Having had a 4R with KDSS - in the 4Runner you can disable the KDSS shutter valves in the open position with a simple electronic switch (you can pay $$ for one or make one for a few bucks). Having it selectable makes it very obvious how harsh KDSS makes the washboard and everything else offroad between 10 and 40mph. KDSS is a big part of it.

The LC system is not speed sensitive in terms of vehicle speed directly. It is a passive system that closes the valves for fluid flow based on the fluid flow rate. Presumably the valves are setup with the purpose of closing or restricting fluid flow so the system doesn't overheat. Bypassing the system on the 4Runner has consequences and one of which is likely a shorter life of the system. I don't know of any way to bypass or override the LC200 to maintain the system being in the "open" fluid flow position at higher speeds. You could remove the balls in the valves and make it always open, but that may not be a great idea.

The Bilstein's are also a bit harsh. They tend to work better as you push them harder. But they're not plush in any sense in any application I've driven them or ridden in a vehicle with them. For my Tundra that is pretty similar to the in a lot of ways - I went with fox 2.0s in the same rough price category because they have significantly lower initial damping and make for a lot softer ride on the washboard. The opposite is true for the fox 2.0 shocks - they start to run out of capability very quickly in the whoops. They don't have enough compression or rebound damping to handle larger whoops as you start to pick up the pace. One of my local trails is a 22 mile run out to a glacier on a dry river bed that is almost all 2-3 foot moguls (think wave formed sea bed roughly 2 feet tall spaced about 10 feet or 15 feet apart). Compared to the 4Runner with Fox 2.5 Factory Series - the 2.0's get out of their comfort zone quick. - all that said, the Fox 2.0 are much better on small washboard like a typical rough gravel road - they ride very well and maintain great ground contact. And for me they do job #1 of cushy highway ride really well.

If you wanted something that IMO is a nice bump up from the fox 2.0 - the C clip version of the ICON 2.5 is a really good value. And it seems like those would do significantly better in the bigger bumps but maybe still work really well for small bump compliance.

This. A switch was gunna be my next mod on my GX but I sold it and bought the LX before I got around to it. In fact, I actually had the kit and partially installed it but then took it off

 

[Jetboy]

This. A switch was gunna be my next mod on my GX but I sold it and bought the LX before I got around to it. In fact, I actually had the kit and partially installed it but then took it off

If you bought the switch from Dr Kdss - he made that based on the circuit diagram I designed and posted on the 4Runner forum. If you look over there I threw it out entirely how to make it what circuit board you need and everything

 

[Boston Mangler]

UPDATE!!!

First off, I was admittedly pretty bummed out about how bad this did last weekend in the washboards and was honestly second guessing my decision, it was that bad

Joined a fellow Mud Member/Friend, that shall remain nameless so his reputation isn’t tarnished for associating with Riff Raff like myself, on some awesome local rocky trails today. I jumped at the chance for further testing/dialing and to meet new local folks

Several of you suggested airing down lower, so I went down to 18lbs

Holy freaking hell. Just 7lbs lower, 1000x better, rode plush everywhere it needed to and held strong in some decent rocky areas.

Was about exactly the type of “wheeling” I enjoy and the type of stuff I’ll be doing with this truck, so I was super stoked!!!

The sliders and skids (stock) got used and tested for sure.

Other than I need to address some rubbing on the rear mud flap the truck performed flawlessly in all conditions.

Coopers did amazing well in the rocks once aired down to 18lbs. I’m pleased and very impressed with them. Especially because they’re silent on the way home!

Also, I’ve been comparing this to all my prior LCs and Trucks and it’s just not comparable to any of them. It’s in its own class as far as capability right out of the box.

Example: My tundra had E rated Nittos and 25psi was the magic # for comfort

So yall were spot on about the KDSS and the Bilsteins should be performing well in the terrain I described, and suggesting lower pressure.

Thank you!!!

First truck with traction control gizmos and related noises, so still getting used to that, but so far, A+

@dudemancool1904 18lbs is the magic # sir

 

[dudemancool1904]

Def the tires. I just did 60+ miles on washboard roads in the middle of nowhere Nevada and we were hauling at 55-60 mph. We played with pressures and my passengers remarked that it felt like driving on tarmac. If it wasn’t a safety issue I probably would have gone faster

 

[Boston Mangler]

Def the tires. I just did 60+ miles on washboard roads in the middle of nowhere Nevada and we were hauling at 55-60 mph. We played with pressures and my passengers remarked that it felt like driving on tarmac. If it wasn’t a safety issue I probably would have gone faster

To clarify.

I would not be going that fast at 18lbs personally.

Likely pop bead off rim with wrong jerk of the wheel

 

[bj70bc]

To clarify.

I would not be going that fast at 18lbs personally.

Likely pop bead off rim with wrong jerk of the wheel

cooper and mickeys have the same sidewall, same manufacturer and they are hard as hell, but youll never wreck a sidewall

 

[TeCKis300]

Don't want to incriminate anyone either so I'll anonymously post a picture.

 

[Boston Mangler]

Don't want to incriminate anyone either so I'll anonymously post a picture.

View attachment 3857122

What did you type into ChatGPT to create this?

“Show fat white Highlander Offroad”?