Builds Electric TLC FJ-40 Build (1 Viewer)

[elripster]

Given the costs of R&D, labor etc for low volume that is pretty good. Figure a small team of engineers and techs working on a new product for a year can easily cost a million bucks in salary and G&A and you haven't purchased equipment yet or paid yourself (assuming you are the owner). That price likely has to include parts, labor, overhead, profit, and hopefully some more to cover R&D.

Frank

 

[lenross1]

I want to see someone take one of the newer small high-efficiency diesel engines and build a proper diesel-electric - just like a train. I've said for 30+yrs this is a better platform and would give a better real-world range without any fear of running out of power. With storage capacity technology now it's feasible to make the system even more efficient with stop/start on-demand integration. There are OEM's exploring this option, shows a lot of promise versus standard battery-only setups. An electric Cruiser would be cool, but recharging out in the sticks is going to take one huge solar panel, lol.

At least it's a start - some of these conversions give some amazing results in older vehicles.

Sarge

Truth

 

[jondinkins]

I'm very interested in an EV crate motor option down the road. I have the perfect 1973 with factory steering and 3 spd on the floor sitting in my garage awaiting a powerhouse.
I wonder if a utility trailer could be setup as a second battery pack to plug in on long trips with a solar panel as the roof. A small generator could be on board the trailer as a backup. Basically, a portable charging station.

 

[bikersmurf]

I'm very interested in an EV crate motor option down the road. I have the perfect 1973 with factory steering and 3 spd on the floor sitting in my garage awaiting a powerhouse.
I wonder if a utility trailer could be setup as a second battery pack to plug in on long trips with a solar panel as the roof. A small generator could be on board the trailer as a backup. Basically, a portable charging station.

I’ve got a 3.6 kw propane generator that would be perfect for a basecamp. I’ve considered having a service to come boost electric vehicles that have overestimated their range... most people are parinoid about running out of juice... however as they multiply like rabbits, the day is coming when people will start getting stranded. Or if there’s ever a sustained power outage, people would need options.

 

[ElectricGT]

Soooo I got bored and decided to run some of these specs through my performance simulator. I tend to get a bit... well... skeptical when technical question are met with instagram posts.

So what this has going for it is that it retains the transmission. However, performance in many areas will fall well short of the 2F powertain due the very low continuous performance of air cooled motors. Also, induction motors have worse efficiency at lower RPMs than do permanent magnet motors meaning you want to keep the RPM's up to maximize efficiency. Here, however, there is a potential problem. Note the torque line and where it starts to taper off. That is a region we call flux or field weakening and is also the region of peak operating efficiency. To reach that you have to rev the transmission input shaft 6000 RPM and beyond. That is higher than that gearbox was likely designed to rev. If it starts throwing oil off of the gear teeth rapid wear will result. I am not saying you cannot rev it that high, just that there is a real risk of rapid gear and/or bearing wear. Assuming you try to keep the transmission under say 5k means you never reach the motor's region of peak efficiency - or peak power. Note that I did not account for the added windage losses from revving that high.

View attachment 2116805

I used the following constants in my simulation

Crr	0.006​
Cd	0.50​
A	3.3​
Mi	1.04​
lb	4500​
kg (mass)	2041.2​
N	20017​
mgCrr0	120​
Crr1	Ignored
mg =	20017​
ρ=	1.2​

I used the 3 speed trans ratios of 2.75, 1.69, and 1:1.


Rear axle 4.11
I assumed 33" tires though the .006 Crr is likely worse in real life but I gave it the benefit of doubt.

Note the graph below.... The peak power numbers look great but air cooled motors heat quickly, as in seconds, and have low continuous power compared to liquid cooled motors. Thus any continuous load operation like high way cruise and grade climbing needs to be assessed at continuous power, not peak. Based on that, the FJ40 will have a high way cruise speed of only 70 MPH as you will heat the motor just getting onto the freeway. While startability at peak is great, continuous is only 12% which is awful for an on road passenger vehicle. Consider pulling over on a 6% grade, attempting to get back on the road climbing the road crown, and having the asphalt raised creating a ridge off of the shoulder can create an instantaneous grade of 20%. You'd have to wait until the motors cooled to climb over that ridge.

View attachment 2116809

Now looking at consumption, I could not find an efficiency map for these motors so I fudged one from other induction motors. There are a number of drive cycles one can use, I used the CARB HDDT 65. It is typically a heavy duty cycle but it does mimic SoCal driving rather well and the 40 should easily meet the trace which the simulator suggests it does. Here I get .55 kWh/mi. To put that into a range number, if you have 47kWh and say allow 90% of that to be used, you then have 42.3 kWh of usable energy. Divide that by .55 and you have 77 miles of range. That's not very much and definitely not enough to go wheeling/camping etc... with a rig like that.

Finally, the numbers we all love, 0-60 times. Peak power I am getting around 15 seconds accounting for time to shift gears which could be improved if you are willing to torture the gearbox and rev >6k RPM. However, at continuous power you will be pushing 40 seconds, and in 4-0 seconds to get to 60 MPH. Realize that you will warm the motors just getting to the freeway. If you are climbing an uphill on ramp, you will probably miss that 2F...

My recommendation to the OP would be to consider a lower revving higher torque PMAC machine instead of the induction machine. Also, consider going up in voltage if you can. That will help performance and efficiency because let's be honest, the AC50 and that line of motors is really forklift/golf cart grade hardware. Think about sizing the motor for continuous power, which will require more motor but will then deliver much better and more consistent performance - and yes it will cost more but I have to believe the 2F has to set the performance floor. Consider that all, and I mean every single EV on the market uses liquid cooled motors and higher DC voltage for these reasons.

Please let me know if I can be of further help.


Frank

Hey Frank,

We appreciate the work you've put into this response and your following the project, we'll post responses to all of this and technical details and real world performance on the finished product when we can!

 

[ElectricGT]

Well I believe they charge $60K for a conversion. And it appears performance is less than expected. I give these guys giant kudos for what they have done, just seems like electric is a ways off for this type of application

You're correct on the cost. There are reasons why this is being done this way and on this application, stay tuned!

 

[ElectricGT]

Don't forget the additional $50,000 it will take to renovate your living room into a showroom with garage door and ramp. Because that's what I would do if I had an electric Land Cruiser.

We like this idea. We estimate that you could run your beer fridge for nearly a year off of the battery pack and it could serve as an emergency generator for your house in an emergency! Your very own Powerwall Land Cruiser Wall.

 

[elripster]

Truth

I have actually built a vehicle like that. While it looks good on paper in practice there are many draw backs. Some include:

- Heavy diesel engine and the motor required to generate power adds even more mass to the EV which is usually already heavier than its ICE counterpar.
- Cost... goes way up, so does complexity. The latter challenges the time to payback even further.
- Emissions now become an issue so incentives will be all but non-existent. Not saying that is right but that is how it is. Dieselgate pretty much tanked any chance of diesel getting a foothold in the US. It is on its way out in Europe as well.
- Trains climb about a 3% max where your 4X4 could push well over 30% so the motor needs to be utterly huge or you need a transmission, this challenges the space claim
- You still need a battery to load level and since you need to shrink it to make mass and space headroom you are looking at a more exotic titanate chemistry or something along those lines = very expensive.
- To get all of that work together requires sophisticated controls, trust I have written them, and thus you have to pay lots of expensive engineers for years to design and validate and I haven't even touched on supply chain or manufacturing tool up costs. ROI at low volume under the best of circumstances is, well, quite a stretch to justify.

This is why you see most solutions using just batteries and one direct driven motor or in cases like this, the same with a gearbox and thus smaller motor which is also a more efficient way to use the motor.

There was a time when NiMH was the state of the art that things like diesel hybrids were gaining traction. However, that was over 15 years ago. Today with batteries dropping below $100/kWh we will see a tipping point in the next few years where EV's cost less than ICE's and have equal or better range per "tank".

Frank

 

[elripster]

Hey Frank,

We appreciate the work you've put into this response and your following the project, we'll post responses to all of this and technical details and real world performance on the finished product when we can!

Looking forward to it. While it is typically better to nail the system level design before building sometimes it is just more fun to put something together and start learning.

If performance isn't what it needs to be there are some other options out there. I'd like to say the US is the leader in EV's but by the numbers that lead goes to China and they have some really affordable liquid cooled PMAC machines that would kick ass in a vehicle like that 40. They would require voltage in the 400V range though.

Frank

 

[ElectricGT]

Wondering what is in the "Valve or CAM" covers? For one, the BMS system. Critical for any EV build for battery management, longevity, & safety.

 

[ElectricGT]

We have been a bit inundated and amiss in sharing some neat update content.... Let us know if you are at SEMA we are on our way out!!



And from another angle mated with the Transmission.....

 

[ElectricGT]

Built up the motor, fitted, stripped back down. Anodized "Block" parts as needed, painted or Powder coated other brackets etc... Final Build up begins... Bell-housing attached and Clutch assembly installed for final time.

Billet Adapter plate...

Input shaft and mating checked out. Removing the Vacuum 4x4 actuator..

 

[ElectricGT]

 

[ElectricGT]

Final Assembly & Build Up in progress.... 12v Harness run.... Energy Module dropped into the bed....

HV wire

 

[ElectricGT]

HV Harness prewired for bench testing and then installation.

 

[Nader]

I love how there's a Jaguar XKE front clip laying on the shelf like it's no big deal.

 

[ElectricGT]

Monster Distributor wires?

Feels like un-wraping things before the holidays.

Gotta like new rubber and hardware all around....

 

[ElectricGT]

Swapping to Floor Shifting.....

Test bends...

 

[ElectricGT]

Bench Testing.

 

[OGBeno]

Looks like you guys even made it into The NY Times. That’s the big time.

Out: M.P.G. In: Kilowatt-Hours. Classic Cars Get an Electric Jolt. (Published 2019)

A California company has developed a “crate motor” to relatively simply (but not so cheaply) convert gasoline cars to modern electric engines.

www.nytimes.com