Early F engine water pump conundrum (2 Viewers)

[rainingagain]

His new block is a 67 … definite not an f.5

I am a dope and had these flipped.

The old engine is a F.5.

The new long block is a 1F.

 

[rainingagain]

I just noticed that you have a double groove harmonic balancer so your fan pulley is most likely different than mine and set back farther. Here is an old pic before I yanked my water pump. Sorry no pulley but it cleared fine.

If you need any more pics of an early 1F, let me know. Good luck!

 

[Trollhole]

You have an early F motor or what I call a Siamese head motor. Your original motor was the non siamese head.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Do you mean 68 - 74? The change was at the end of 1967.

Early upper 16333-60020
Early lower 16331-60010

Yes, I stand corrected. Thank you. Getting me the part number for early upper and early lower was a big help. Thank you again. Can you suggest a vendor who might carry those parts? I am not having luck with the usual Internet vendors.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

I just noticed that you have a double groove harmonic balancer so your fan pulley is most likely different than mine and set back farther. Here is an old pic before I yanked my water pump. Sorry no pulley but it cleared fine.

The 1968 motor in the FJ does have a double grooved harmonic balancer but only one groove was being used. I believe the engine is original to the FJ, so perhaps the other groove was for an air pump?

I did get a single grooved harmonic balancer with the remanufactured engine, I am hoping I can put the double groove balancer on the new engine if I need to.

2 groove harmonic balancer from the 1968 engine in the FJ

Here is the single groove harmonic balancer that came with the new motor.

hey, this little dent on the edge of the balancer shouldn’t make a difference on an engine that spins low FJ RPMs, should it?

 

[JohnnyC]

@65swb45 may have then used

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

You have an early F motor or what I call a Siamese head motor. Your original motor was the non siamese head.

I thought the new motor was an F145. I did not think it had the Siamese head. Can you tell from this picture of the manifolds?

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Btw I think that would be the wrong water pump … I think 67 still had the threaded upper bypass hose … so the pump case most likely is different


Maybe the lower tstat housing was different

you are correct. So far I have learned it is a 1967 block and it used different thermostat housings and a different water pump. The earlier thermostat housings were not as deep, so that should resolve the interference with the water pump pulley. Another member here gave me part numbers for the early thermostat housing and now I am going to try to find them.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

If you need any more pics of an early 1F, let me know. Good luck!

if you could, I would love a picture that shows how the upper alternator bracket is attached on an early F engine. Thank you.

 

[JohnnyC]

Maybe it’s a later F head on the earlier f engine … somebody can run the head stamping apart number to see what head it is

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

I just went through this song and dance. You are going to be hard pressed to find that early pump. I looked for a very long time. Here's what it looks like. Notice the straight neck to accommodate the longer coolant pipe.

The search has already begun. And you’re right, it is hard.

That being said, I'm pretty sure that your new block is a F.5 for F1.5. Here is a pic of the water pump on a spare 1970 engine that I have.

The water pump bolts right up near the timing cover. Also plenty of clearance for the thermostat housing. Buuuuuuuut this is a thermostat housing on a F1.5. Also it's a thermostat housing that mates with the short, later design top housing. Do you have the really tall one or the shorter style? Looking at your lower housing, you probably have the taller style which is deeper.

View attachment 3221120

The lower thermostat housing on your 1970 motor matches the lower thermostat housing on my 1968 motor. It is deeper like the one shown in the picture.

Here is mine with that early style water pump and early style housing.

View attachment 3221126

This picture is very helpful. It confirms to me that the lower thermostat housing is shallower on the early model as compared to my 1968 model. The thermostat housing that I have is definitely deeper. If I can find the early thermostat housing I suspect it will eliminate my clearance problem with the water pump pulley. I wonder if the early style water pump in your picture is the same height from base plate to the pulley mount disk.

View attachment 3221128

The water pump location in the block in the picture matches my remanufactured 1967 block. So we have a match here, which helps.

I can't speak to the differences on the internals for a F1.5 and whether or not you can run a 1F head on a F1.5 but the thermostat housings are different. You'll probably need to purchase a new lower and upper housing to run that pump.

The remanufactured engine came from the builder in Chatsworth California with the head attached and came with instructions not to remove the head before installation. Only to re-torque the head bolts. I’ve got to hope that the builder knew what he was doing matching the head To the block.

it did not come with thermostat housing or thermostat. It looks like the ones I have are a no go. I need to find the early model, upper and lower thermostat housings.

I can measure the diameter of the pulleys between the two engines also. Do you have a build thread?

Sorry, I do not have a build thread, this thread is my first post to the forum, although I have been reading it for a couple of years.

here are some measurements I took of the thermostat housing that I have. They definitely look deeper than the early style T – stat housing.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Maybe it’s a later F head on the earlier f engine … somebody can run the head stamping apart number to see what head it is

Here are the casting numbers on the F head from the engine remanufacturer: first number is 90910.

Here is the second casting number, 320.

here are the last two numbers, which I think might actually be part numbers for the head? 11111 and 60031..

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Maybe it’s a later F head on the earlier f engine … somebody can run the head stamping apart number to see what head it is

A couple of posts down I have casting numbers with head pictures. Keep scrolling…

 

[JohnnyC]

I believe that’s a 69’ head

90910

9 = 69
09 = September
10 = 10th

 

[JohnnyC]

@andybudge I think had made some upper early tstat housings can’t recall if he did lower as well

 

[firemanj92]

The 1968 motor in the FJ does have a double grooved harmonic balancer but only one groove was being used. I believe the engine is original to the FJ, so perhaps the other groove was for an air pump?

I did get a single grooved harmonic balancer with the remanufactured engine, I am hoping I can put the double groove balancer on the new engine if I need to.

2 groove harmonic balancer from the 1968 engine in the FJ
View attachment 3221149


Here is the single groove harmonic balancer that came with the new motor.
View attachment 3221148



View attachment 3221147
hey, this little dent on the edge of the balancer shouldn’t make a difference on an engine that spins low FJ RPMs, should it?

View attachment 3221146

The 2 groove and single groove HB are the same thickness. They both use the 46mm bolt (130 ft lbs). The caveat being you will need a fan spacer from (@65swb45) to use the OEM fan or it may hit the second groove of HB. BTW, dent won't make a difference. Hope this helps

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

The 2 groove and single groove HB are the same thickness. They both use the 46mm bolt (130 ft lbs). The caveat being you will need a fan spacer from (@65swb45) to use the OEM fan or it may hit the second groove of HB.

Are you 100% sure that they both use the 46 mm bolt to hold on the harmonic balancer? I cannot see any 46 mm bolt on the HB on the engine that is still in the FJ. Also, there are no threads on the crankshaft that extends out of the remanufactured engine. Both harmonic balancer‘s appear to be press on as far as I can tell. Can you see anything in the pictures below that would indicate otherwise? Thanks for the help…

HB on existing 1968 engine in the FJ

crankshaft and key on the remanufactured 1967 F engine:

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but they sure look like press on harmonic balancers to me, but I’m just learning…

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

The 2 groove and single groove HB are the same thickness.

The harmonic balancer portion of the bottom pulley is the same thickness only if you don’t count the grooves. The HB with a single groove exactly matches up to the first groove of the HB with twin grooves. The second groove extends farther out by exactly the groove width. In other words, the harmonic balancer with two grooves is exactly one groove wider than the harmonic balancer with one groove.

is the spacer that you referred to something that goes on between the water pump spindle plate and the upper pulley? I seem to have seen something like that on the SOR website.

 

[Casey E]

You’re going to need all early stuff to run that motor. Your exhaust and intake from the Last motor won’t work either. You will need a Siamese intake and exhaust manifold. You will then need to find a one barrel carb or go Holly fuel injection.

Also avoid buying from SOR, they are by far the most expensive place to buy parts . Use Cruiser outfitters , Valley hybrids , Cityracer or Marks Off road. This will save you around 50%

 

[MDH33]

You’re going to need all early stuff to run that motor. Your exhaust and intake from the Last motor won’t work either.

It has an F145 head on the F block, so his old manifolds will bolt on, but I didn't think the later head was compatible with the earlier because the headgaskets and oil delivery are different. (?)

Who built the long block?