Early F engine water pump conundrum

[Casey E]

It has an F145 head on the F block, so his old manifolds will bolt on, but I didn't think the later head was compatible with the earlier because the headgaskets and oil delivery are different. (?)

Who built the long block?

O…sh…t I didn’t catch that . Yeah he might have big issues with that setup. That would also explain why it has that valve cover on it instead of the early one.

 

[firemanj92]

The harmonic balancer portion of the bottom pulley is the same thickness only if you don’t count the grooves. The HB with a single groove exactly matches up to the first groove of the HB with twin grooves. The second groove extends farther out by exactly the groove width. In other words, the harmonic balancer with two grooves is exactly one groove wider than the harmonic balancer with one groove.

is the spacer that you referred to something that goes on between the water pump spindle plate and the upper pulley? I seem to have seen something like that on the SOR website.

View attachment 3221406

Yep, the fan on the upper pulley will strike the second groove hence the need for a spacer (and longer fan bolts) between it and the pulley-no need to space the pulley only the fan needs more space. The mounting thickness of both HB's are the same. I would also suggest buying newer 5/6 blade plastic fan from Mark (@65swb45) too. When the metal fans fail it is catastrophic sending shrapnel thru the hood and cooling system (or you can go to SOR.com).

Metal fan alternative for the F engine - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/metal-fan-alternative-for-the-f-engine.1117265/page-2#post-12135178

 

[andybudge]

@andybudge I think had made some upper early tstat housings can’t recall if he did lower as well

Upper Thermostat Housing only, at this stage

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

It has an F145 head on the F block, so his old manifolds will bolt on, but I didn't think the later head was compatible with the earlier because the headgaskets and oil delivery are different. (?)

Who built the long block?

The long block was built by Leon from the Engine Forge in Chatsworth California.

Is the September 1969 head not compatible with the July 1967 block? If they are not compatible, I may need to ship this engine back.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

You’re going to need all early stuff to run that motor. Your exhaust and intake from the Last motor won’t work either. You will need a Siamese intake and exhaust manifold. You will then need to find a one barrel carb or go Holly fuel injection.

O…sh…t I didn’t catch that . Yeah he might have big issues with that setup. That would also explain why it has that valve cover on it instead of the early one.

The valve cover on the remanufactured engine is some thing that the rebuilder dug up, it was not original to either the head or the block.

The Engine Rebuilders told me I would be able to transfer all of my external engine components to the new motor. This seems to be not true. It looks like I’m going to have some difficult conversations with the shop and Chatsworth California.

 

[MDH33]

The long block was built by Leon from the Engine Forge in Chatsworth California.

Is the September 1969 head not compatible with the July 1967 block? If they are not compatible, I may need to ship this engine back.

I'm not certain. Hopefully @65swb45 Mark or someone knowledgeable about the differences will clarify.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

You’re going to need all early stuff to run that motor. Your exhaust and intake from the Last motor won’t work either. You will need a Siamese intake and exhaust manifold. You will then need to find a one barrel carb or go Holly fuel injection.

Also avoid buying from SOR, they are by far the most expensive place to buy parts . Use Cruiser outfitters , Valley hybrids , Cityracer or Marks Off road. This will save you around 50%

Casey, this is very good information, and very bad news for me. The whole point of the engine build was to be able to use all of the external engine parts and not to source duplicates of all of them separately.

It will easily cost thousands of dollars to source replacement parts for the water pump, the thermostat housing, the intake and exhaust manifolds, the carburetor… I’m not prepared to pay all this extra on top of the sunk cost already in the motor.

Especially if the head and block are not compatible.

It looks like I am going to have to ship this engine back to California. Truly a bummer.

but… thank you for taking the time to help me.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

I'm not certain. Hopefully @65swb45 Mark or someone knowledgeable about the differences will clarify.

I really really need to know this information, especially if it is bad news. It sounds more and more like I am going to have to start over from zero. I will be much indebted to Mark if he can give me definitive information about the compatibility between the head, and the block.

 

[JohnnyC]

The long block was built by Leon from the Engine Forge in Chatsworth California.

Is the September 1969 head not compatible with the July 1967 block? If they are not compatible, I may need to ship this engine back.

Mark @65swb45 or Jim @FJ40Jim would definitely know… mark may even know the builder … being where they are located most likely they do the building for SOR ?

 

[Casey E]

There is a thread on here where someone broke down all the different heads and compatibility, unfortunately I’m not good at finding them and linking…..said threads.

I have a spare 2-F motor sitting at Yota 1, this is one of the best builders in the nation. They are building me a motor now and I dropped off the spare that I had sitting at the same time. Let me know if your interested in that motor and I’ll put you in touch with them. The Waite is 6 months. Also Georg Keeps rebuilt motors in stock so you could reach out to him and have a known solid motor from a well known vendor. @orangefj45 (Georg) is the owner of Valley Hybrids.

 

[65swb45]

Mark @65swb45 or Jim @FJ40Jim would definitely know… mark may even know the builder … being where they are located most likely they do the building for SOR ?

Johnny and all,

I appreciate the fact that you have tagged me several times on this thread. I posted up about three months ago that after 19 years and 33,000 posts I am burned out by the shift in attitudes on the forum, and I am no longer interested in making regular contributions to the tech forum. I am still helping customers who are interested in doing business the old fashioned way, and watching over old friends who still hang out here. The fact that the OP has not acknowledged the mentions up to this point tells me what I need to know.

 

[Casey E]

2F head

forum.ih8mud.com

Here is the thread. Looks like Mark W answered the question you’re searching for.

 

[Casey E]

Johnny and all,

I appreciate the fact that you have tagged me several times on this thread. I posted up about three months ago that after 19 years and 33,000 posts I am burned out by the shift in attitudes on the forum, and I am no longer interested in making regular contributions to the tech forum. I am still helping customers who are interested in doing business the old fashioned way, and watching over old friends who still hang out here. The fact that the OP has not acknowledged the mentions up to this point tells me what I need to know.

Mark the OP is brand new here, he likely has no idea how the forum works especially with tags, I wouldn’t take it personal.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Johnny and all,

I appreciate the fact that you have tagged me several times on this thread. I posted up about three months ago that after 19 years and 33,000 posts I am burned out by the shift in attitudes on the forum, and I am no longer interested in making regular contributions to the tech forum. I am still helping customers who are interested in doing business the old fashioned way, and watching over old friends who still hang out here. The fact that the OP has not acknowledged the mentions up to this point tells me what I need to know.

Edited to summarize.

Very sorry to be contributing to Mark’s unhappiness. I regret it. I apologize for not acknowledging the tagged mentions in my thread, beyond commenting I wished I could see his ‘67 engine.

Last thing I want to do is rile up the folks who volunteer their time and info to help me.
So, sorry, y’all.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

2F head

forum.ih8mud.com

Here is the thread. Looks like Mark W answered the question you’re searching for.

Casey: Thank you, thank you, thank you. I am happy to glean Mark’s past nuggets without disturbing his peace. Thanks for Your time and understanding.

 

[MDH33]

Looking through that thread Casey E posted, it looks like the F block and F145 head works as long as the oiling has been addressed. I'm still unsure about the headgasket though as I've been searching for an OEM headgasket for my '69 F145 and it's specific, and also NLA.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Looking through that thread Casey E posted, it looks like the F block and F145 head works as long as the oiling has been addressed. I'm still unsure about the headgasket though as I've been searching for an OEM headgasket for my '69 F145 and it's specific, and also NLA.

Thank you and Casey both for the time and effort. I got the remnants of a gasket set with the long block build. I know what the rebuilder used.
It is a FelPro HS21218-B1. My casual search shows this is for a 1968 F engine. So… will that gasket accommodate the oil passages for the Siamese 1967 block?

 

[firemanj92]

Are you 100% sure that they both use the 46 mm bolt to hold on the harmonic balancer? I cannot see any 46 mm bolt on the HB on the engine that is still in the FJ. Also, there are no threads on the crankshaft that extends out of the remanufactured engine. Both harmonic balancer‘s appear to be press on as far as I can tell. Can you see anything in the pictures below that would indicate otherwise? Thanks for the help…

HB on existing 1968 engine in the FJ
View attachment 3221384

crankshaft and key on the remanufactured 1967 F engine:

View attachment 3221385

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but they sure look like press on harmonic balancers to me, but I’m just learning…

There is a thread on here where someone broke down all the different heads and compatibility, unfortunately I’m not good at finding them and linking…..said threads.

I have a spare 2-F motor sitting at Yota 1, this is one of the best builders in the nation. They are building me a motor now and I dropped off the spare that I had sitting at the same time. Let me know if your interested in that motor and I’ll put you in touch with them. The Waite is 6 months. Also Georg Keeps rebuilt motors in stock so you could reach out to him and have a known solid motor from a well known vendor. @orangefj45 (Georg) is the owner of Valley Hybrids.

Yep, you have a pressed on HB nut so throw out the 46mm advice given. Call and ask the motor builders if you have questions!

Also give Yota1 a call and ask for Nick- @Casey E has given you a starting point with motor builders. Here is another list of F/2F motor builders 209Yoda1 of Riverbank, CA, Classic Cruisers of CO. Mosley's of Memphis, BTB of Reno, NV. Before I had my motor rebuilt I spoke to each of the motor builders. I started in the East worked my way West closer to home. In the end I was able to get it rebuilt in my own backyard by Yoda1. Lots of options/threads that were previously stated.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

There is a thread on here where someone broke down all the different heads and compatibility, unfortunately I’m not good at finding them and linking…..said threads.

I have a spare 2-F motor sitting at Yota 1, this is one of the best builders in the nation. They are building me a motor now and I dropped off the spare that I had sitting at the same time. Let me know if your interested in that motor and I’ll put you in touch with them. The Waite is 6 months. Also Georg Keeps rebuilt motors in stock so you could reach out to him and have a known solid motor from a well known vendor. @orangefj45 (Georg) is the owner of Valley Hybrids.

Casey, I forgot to thank you for this. I’m waiting to see how my discussion with the builder shakes out. After reading the fine print on my purchase agreement, I might be stuck. Depending on outcomes, I could be very interested in another motor… In any event, thanks so much for the kindness and help. I’m going to need it if I have to go forward with my 67-69 motor.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Yep, you have a pressed on HB nut so throw out the 46mm advice given. Call and ask the motor builders if you have questions!

Also give Yota1 a call and ask for Nick- @Casey E has given you a starting point with motor builders. Here is another list of F/2F motor builders 209Yoda1 of Riverbank, CA, Classic Cruisers of CO. Mosley's of Memphis, BTB of Reno, NV. Before I had my motor rebuilt I spoke to each of the motor builders. I started in the East worked my way West closer to home. In the end I was able to get it rebuilt in my own backyard by Yoda1. Lots of options/threads that were previously stated.

Thank you Fireman for sharing the good information. I sure wish I checked mud before I ordered from California. I wasn’t smart as you and I wish I did it your way. Seriously… At least now I have some great references to turn to when I rebuild the 68 motor I’m was going to replace with the long block.
I really appreciate your content. Thanks again.