Early F engine water pump conundrum

[MDH33]

Pop your valve cover off and see if the copper F oiler tube is coming up and attaching to the valve assembly.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Pop your valve cover off and see if the copper F oiler tube is coming up and attaching to the valve assembly.

Yep, it Is there. This is good news, no?

Does this affirmatively address your concerns about the oiling? I think it does… And thank you again.

After reviewing the fine print on my purchase agreement last night I’ve got a feeling I’m going to need to make the best out of what I’ve got In this 67-69 motor. And I think with the 69 head, I can still use my intake, exhaust manifolds and keep the 2bbl Weber from the 68 FJ40 I’m replacing.

There’s been so much information shared with me by the community and I am profoundly grateful for all of the kind volunteering and help. I’m gonna get through this and end up with a good driving motor, even if I have to change some plans and make adjustments along the way. I’d never be able to understand the needs and potential solutions without help from the Mud community.

Thanks.

 

[pjohnson]

That does resolve any concern about oiling.

Perhaps a later thermostat housing with the earlier water pump will work?

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Yep, the fan on the upper pulley will strike the second groove hence the need for a spacer (and longer fan bolts) between it and the pulley-no need to space the pulley only the fan needs more space. The mounting thickness of both HB's are the same. I would also suggest buying newer 5/6 blade plastic fan from Mark (@65swb45) too. When the metal fans fail it is catastrophic sending shrapnel thru the hood and cooling system (or you can go to SOR.com).

Metal fan alternative for the F engine - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/metal-fan-alternative-for-the-f-engine.1117265/page-2#post-12135178

Funny thing you should mention this. I noticed something when I removed the fan blade from the 1968FJ40. After cleaning it with a wire wheel, I found a three-quarter inch crack, radiating outward from the intersection where the blades are joined together. I hit the crack with a grinder, put a JB Weld patch in the metal fillet, and sanded the JB Weld down flat. It looks good as new.

Except that from what I have read, especially in the link you gave me, it is not as good as new. The last thing I want is a shrapnel storm.

I just placed a voicemail order with Mark‘s cruisers in Burbank for a new plastic fan, a spacer, and new fan bolts. Thank you for your advice, you may have helped me dodge a major hit.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

That does resolve any concern about oiling.

Perhaps a later thermostat housing with the earlier water pump will work?

Thank you for the affirmative feedback, Mr. Johnson. I think I’m going to try an early thermostat housing, which is more shallow, with the 1968 version water pump. I am optimistic that this combination might provide both horizontal and vertical clearance for the water pump pulley. I hope I can make the water pump version that I have work, because finding a 1967 water pump is going to be a very hard thing to do, as I have learned from members here.

Parts have been ordered. After the right UPS visit, I promise to share updated results.

 

[JohnnyC]

I'm not sure about the above....I've got an early F (off a '64) that I bolted up a '73 head to. This allows me to use the later model carb intake (double barrel) and improved exhaust manifold. I've got it running fairly well...don't have compression numbers as I don't have a compression tool. I think I have a little bit of a vacuum leak, but other than that, it idles and drives fine.

Sorry, I was thinking about swapping the bathtub head onto anything else. If you swapp the manifolds and other affected components along with the head, then you can update the earlier Fs with the later F heads. It'll boost your compression some too.


Mark...

This answers if u can use a later head on an earlier engine….

Yes you can

And you will up the compression… a bonus


From posts here if you want to go and like their posts

2F head

does anyone know if a 2f head will work on a f engine... trying to get an engine running and it will not start... PO said he rebuilt with a 2f head? is that the problem? Has not run in a while (not sure how long) has spark, and compression, and will pop off if you pour gas in the carb, but...

forum.ih8mud.com

 

[middlecalf]

One thing you can do without a dizzy installed is spin the oil pump to see if oil will make it up to the rockers. Take a long flat head screwdriver that you no longer need, cut off the handle, and insert the blade/shaft remnant into your electric drill chuck. Look down the dizzy mount hole with a light and you'll see a slot at the very bottom. That's the slot that the bottom end of the dizzy shaft will sit in to drive the oil pump (the cam shaft drives the dizzy, and it drives the oil pump). Stick your drill/screw blade tool into the hole, and slowly spin it, you'll feel it seat in the slot. You then can spin the drill (clockwise) at a slow to medium speed to build up oil pressure in the pump. Run it for a bit, and it you don't see oil coming out of the rockers (oh yeah, you have to put oil in it, and a filter and the oil filter lines need to be in place otherwise you'll have oil all over your shop floor ), then spin the crank (use the HB) a few degrees and try again. Eventually you'll hit the spot where the bifurcation oil passages line up on the crank/cam shafts and oil will be pumped up to the rockers. This is also a good thing to do before starting the motor so the oil pump is effectively primed. Sorry for the long diatribe, and GL.

 

[locklaw]

Thank you for the affirmative feedback, Mr. Johnson. I think I’m going to try an early thermostat housing, which is more shallow, with the 1968 version water pump. I am optimistic that this combination might provide both horizontal and vertical clearance for the water pump pulley. I hope I can make the water pump version that I have work, because finding a 1967 water pump is going to be a very hard thing to do, as I have learned from members here.

Parts have been ordered. After the right UPS visit, I promise to share updated results.

Good luck with this headache which turned into an adventure. I see SOR (Specter Off Road) has used stock of the early lower thermostat housing which you will need to run the later water pump. Yes, they are not the cheapest but I have only received exceptional quality used parts from them.

I am unsure but think that the later upper thermostat housing may work with the lower housing. In any event, I have run my early siamese F135 with a later water pump while I searched for and luckily found a NOS early pump in the Middle East.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Good luck with this headache which turned into an adventure. I see SOR (Specter Off Road) has used stock of the early lower thermostat housing which you will need to run the later water pump. Yes, they are not the cheapest but I have only received exceptional quality used parts from them.

I am unsure but think that the later upper thermostat housing may work with the lower housing. In any event, I have run my early siamese F135 with a later water pump while I searched for and luckily found a NOS early pump in the Middle East.

Thanks again for the thoughts… I’m going forward with what I got, and believe I can make it work. I think you and I are sharing some of the same thoughts. Here’s what I’ve observed so far:

With my ‘67 block and ‘69 head combo, I can put a ‘68 water pump on without it touching the 68 lower thermostat body—barely— so the pump clears but the upper pulley attached to it still hits. The profile of the early t-stat lower housing does not drop lower than the t-stat mounting flange at the block… unlike the >’68 ones which does drop lower. The early lower t-stat housing bottom looks to be flat level with the bottom of the flange at the block.

I think I might get by with the clearance between the newer water pump and the older lower t-stat housing. It might let the OEM upper pulley fit without interference work that way. I’ll know soon enough! Spacers might come into play if necessary.

I also had the same idea as you about trying a combo of the early lower t-stat housing and the >’68 upper. The early t-stat lower housing has a raised flange which might mate with the later upper housing. If the studs on the lower housing fit the holes on the upper, with a good gasket, it might work. The t-stat is the same size, and I already have a new late upper t-stat housing. I will shortly have all the pieces on hand, so no harm in checking the fit and reporting back.

By the way thank you *very* much for sharing as the owner of a Siamese engine and what you’ve been able to combine. That is priceless and unique good stuff. I am very grateful.

 

[locklaw]

Yep, and here is picture proof of a running F135 with a later water pump with the earlier thermostat housing-

Thanks again for the thoughts… I’m going forward with what I got, and believe I can make it work. I think you and I are sharing some of the same thoughts. Here’s what I’ve observed so far:

With my ‘67 block and ‘69 head combo, I can put a ‘68 water pump on without it touching the 68 lower thermostat body—barely— so the pump clears but the upper pulley attached to it still hits. The profile of the early t-stat lower housing does not drop lower than the t-stat mounting flange at the block… unlike the >’68 ones which does drop lower. The early lower t-stat housing bottom looks to be flat level with the bottom of the flange at the block.

I think I might get by with the clearance between the newer water pump and the older lower t-stat housing. It might let the OEM upper pulley fit without interference work that way. I’ll know soon enough! Spacers might come into play if necessary.

I also had the same idea as you about trying a combo of the early lower t-stat housing and the >’68 upper. The early t-stat lower housing has a raised flange which might mate with the later upper housing. If the studs on the lower housing fit the holes on the upper, with a good gasket, it might work. The t-stat is the same size, and I already have a new late upper t-stat housing. I will shortly have all the pieces on hand, so no harm in checking the fit and reporting back.

By the way thank you *very* much for sharing as the owner of a Siamese engine and what you’ve been able to combine. That is priceless and unique good stuff. I am very grateful.

 

[rainingagain]

My rig was running the newer style water pump with the old style thermostat housing upper and lower but I had the pulley for a single pulley balancer. I think I posted a pic.

The early and later housing are very close but not quite the same bolt diameter. I just went through this. I have some pics in my build thread that I'll try to dig up.

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Yep, and here is picture proof of a running F135 with a later water pump with the earlier thermostat housing-

View attachment 3222955

Awesome photo! Nice rig! Thank you so much for taking the time to share! This is the proof in the pudding…

 

[locklaw]

Awesome photo! Nice rig! Thank you so much for taking the time to share! This is the proof in the pudding…

You're welcome. That photo was taken the first time it was started after standing for 25 odd years and I started on the cleaning process. These tractor motors are bulletproof and as long as water cools the head, there is oil coming through to the top (it does not even pump loads of oil to the rockers so take note) and nothing binds you might just be ok for the long haul.

 

[rainingagain]

My rig was running the newer style water pump with the old style thermostat housing upper and lower but I had the pulley for a single pulley balancer. I think I posted a pic.

The early and later housing are very close but not quite the same bolt diameter. I just went through this. I have some pics in my build thread that I'll try to dig up.

Here's the post showing the later upper housing gasket against a early lower housing. PNW 67 Patina Blue - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/pnw-67-patina-blue.1289865/page-6

 

[Unimogguy]

@VA Mountain FJ40 there’s a ‘67 w/ it’s original engine in it just down the road from you on RT8. If you’d like to take a look at it PM me. I’ve also got access to a ‘64 and ‘68 engine if you need to see others.

 

[Living in the Past]

Been posted the F145 started on 67 models. I thought the F145 started 7/67 with the 68 model. Previous had different exterior components. Particularly the tall thermostat housing. Did read the whole thread if this has already been discussed disregard.

 

[rainingagain]

Been posted the F145 started on 67 models. I thought the F145 started 7/67 with the 68 model. Previous had different exterior components. Particularly the tall thermostat housing. Did read the whole thread if this has already been discussed disregard.

It was probably me. I may have posted 67 but I meant ended sometime mid-late 67 with 68 model officially with the F145 or F.5 or 1.5F or ??.

I hope I got that right. I'm still learning.

 

[Living in the Past]

I have a 9/67 68 model. That is the earliest I seen the padded dash on a FJ40. Seen the previous 67s having a F135 or a F145. 68 model in the US had the ports for the air rail. Mine has the ports but no air rail. Owned mine since July 74. It was first registered in Arizona 11/67. Never registered anywhere but Arizona. Not clear if all 68s have a air rail and air pump. Only ever seen one 68 FJ55 with the emissions piece actually on a 68. A F135 cylinder head would be easy to recognize. Intake openings are round and 2 and 3 then 4 and 5 spare the same exhaust openings. My 68 is 150 miles away and can't check numbers case into the block and cylinder.

 

[JohnnyC]

@rainingagain

The only what we call the F and a half 1.5F or F.5 is a 74’ F155

The 74’ F155 from 9/73-12/74 had the improved oiling system

 

[VA Mountain FJ40]

Been posted the F145 started on 67 models. I thought the F145 started 7/67 with the 68 model. Previous had different exterior components. Particularly the tall thermostat housing. Did read the whole thread if this has already been discussed disregard.

Thanks, LitP… every little bit of info helps!